HostIn 2017 you said the Third World War will be a war with or about AI. Now we have a very conventional war. Can AI help?2017年你曾说第三次世界大战将是一场关于AI、或者说为AI而打的战争。而现在我们看到的是一场非常传统的战争。AI能在其中发挥作用吗？
Elon MuskOne of the reasons for World War III would be if one country has, or one place has, advanced AI technology and other powers wanted it, or they're worried about some country gaining advanced AI that would give them a strong advantage in war. Then they may be tempted to attack before the country that is developing the strong AI has that for use in weapons technology.引发第三次世界大战的原因之一，可能是某个国家或某个地方掌握了先进的AI技术，而其他大国垂涎这项技术，或者担忧某国凭借先进AI在军事上获得巨大优势。在这种情况下，他们可能会在那个正在研发强大AI的国家将其用于武器之前，选择先发制人。
HostRussia said that they are going to stop the delivery of rocket engines. Is that for SpaceX a threat or an opportunity?俄罗斯表示将停止火箭发动机的供应。这对SpaceX来说是威胁还是机遇？
Elon MuskWell, SpaceX, we design and manufacture our own rocket engines, so we do not rely on any Russian components at all.SpaceX这边，我们自己设计和制造火箭发动机，完全不依赖任何俄罗斯零部件。
HostFor the United States of America, is it dangerous? Well, the Boeing and Lockheed.那对美国来说有没有危险呢？毕竟还有Boeing和Lockheed。
Elon MuskBoeing and Lockheed have historically relied on the Russian RD-180 engine, which I should say, to be fair, is a great engine. They are hoping to move away from that in the future with the engines from Blue Origin, but those engines are not yet ready for flight. There is also the Antares vehicle, which is dependent, uses the RD-181 I believe. They will not be able to fly as a result.Boeing和Lockheed历来依赖俄罗斯的RD-180发动机——说句公道话，那确实是一款出色的发动机。他们希望未来转用Blue Origin的发动机，但那些发动机目前尚未准备好飞行。还有Antares运载火箭，它依赖的——我记得是RD-181。这样一来，Antares将无法继续飞行。
HostWith all your knowledge and products, services, you are a strategic weapon in modern warfare. How do you see your role in that context? Ukraine shows that there are opportunities that you needed.凭借你掌握的所有知识和产品、服务，你本身就是现代战争中的一种战略武器。你如何看待自己在这一背景下的角色？乌克兰的情况表明，你所具备的能力确实是需要的。
Elon MuskWell, I certainly hope that SpaceX and Tesla are not forced to develop any kind of weapons technology. Obviously we would only do such a thing if it was the last resort.我当然希望SpaceX和Tesla不会被迫去开发任何形式的武器技术。显然，我们只会在万不得已的情况下才会那么做。
HostI mean it more in the metaphorical sense, not that you produce weapons, but that you are, that your knowledge can be used in order to make a difference in conventional warfare or in the warfare of the future, which is AI.我更多是在比喻意义上说——不是说你生产武器，而是说你的知识可以被用来在传统战争或未来的AI战争中发挥影响。
Elon MuskI think I can be helpful in conflicts. I mean, I try to take the set of actions that are most likely to improve the probability that the future will be good. And so obviously sometimes I make mistakes in this regard, so it's not like I would always get it right, but I aspire to get it right. And so whatever I think is most likely to ensure that the future is good for all of humanity, that does the actions that I will take.我认为我能在冲突中发挥一些作用。我会努力采取那些最有可能提升未来走向良好概率的行动。当然，有时候我也会在这方面判断失误，我并不能保证每次都做对，但这是我的追求。所以，凡是我认为最有可能确保人类未来走向美好的事，就是我会去做的事。
HostA couple of months ago we had an exchange about Ernst Jünger's famous — oh yeah — Storm of Steel. You were very fascinated by that book, which has been published roughly a hundred years ago, about Jünger's experiences in the First World War. Why is that book so important for you?几个月前我们聊到了Ernst Jünger的名著——对对对——《钢铁风暴》。你对那本书非常着迷，那本书大约一百年前出版，记录了Jünger在第一次世界大战中的亲身经历。为什么这本书对你如此重要？
Elon MuskWell, I read a lot of books, and I don't know, for some reason I'm fascinated by war and history in general. I thought that Jünger's book was an excellent first-hand account of World War One, and it certainly, I think a lesson taken from that book is we don't ever want to do that again.我读了很多书，不知道为什么，我对战争和历史总体上都有种着迷。我觉得Jünger的书是关于第一次世界大战最出色的第一手记录，而且我认为这本书给人的启示是：我们永远不要再重蹈那样的覆辙。
HostThat's interesting that you're saying that, because there's a big controversy around that book. Some people are saying this is glorifying war.你这么说很有意思，因为围绕那本书存在很大的争议。有些人说那本书是在美化战争。
Elon MuskIt's definitely not.那绝对不是。
HostAnd other people are saying it's a warning for not having a war ever again. So you're clearly in the second camp.也有人说那是一本警示人们永不再战的书。所以你显然属于第二类读者。
Elon MuskWell, I think those who don't like Jünger's book are basically, you know, just because it's not 100% anti-war in the most extreme way, therefore it's bad. No, it's like a report, it's just neither. He's just saying, it's just describing what happened in a terrible way. So nobody's reading that book and saying I want to do that, that sounds — I mean it makes it very clear it's a very terrible situation. But he also said it's not like there's no good that comes out of even a terrible situation. There's some good that comes out of it, but it's overwhelmingly bad. It's just really interesting to read about history, I mean learn the lessons of history such that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past.我觉得那些不喜欢Jünger这本书的人，基本上就是——因为这本书没有以最极端的方式做到百分之百的反战，所以就觉得它不好。不，它更像是一份报告，不偏向任何一边。他只是在如实描述所发生的那些可怕的事。没有人读完那本书会说，我想去经历那些——那听起来……我是说，书里非常清楚地呈现出那是一种极其可怕的处境。不过他也说了，即便在最糟糕的处境中，也不是说完全没有任何好的东西。从中确实能获得一些东西，但整体上是压倒性的坏。读历史确实很有意思，关键是要从中汲取教训，避免重蹈过去的错误。
HostWell, we know that saying, history doesn't repeat but it rhymes, and we see Orwell these days. Back to the bigger strategic picture, I mean the terrible actions of Putin are to a certain degree also a result of strategic mistakes that Europe, particularly Germany, has made: the drop out of nuclear energy.有句话说，历史不会重演，但总会押韵。我们这些天也看到了奥威尔式的场景。回到更宏观的战略图景——Putin的可怕行动，在某种程度上也是欧洲、特别是德国所犯的战略失误的结果：退出核能。
Elon MuskActually, can I just say, I think it's very important that Germany not shut down its nuclear power stations. I think this is extremely crazy.其实我想说，我认为德国不关闭核电站这件事极其重要。我认为这（关闭核电站）简直是疯了。
HostI just wanted to ask a question on that, because if we really want to reduce Putin's power and Europeans' and Germany's dependence on Russian energy, this works only through decarbonization. So my question to you is, should we have even more nuclear energy in order to get faster independent from Putin and to resolve the climate issues?我正想就此提问——因为如果我们真的想削弱Putin的影响力、减少欧洲和德国对俄罗斯能源的依赖，唯一的路径就是去碳化。所以我想问你：我们是否应该发展更多核能，以便更快地摆脱对Putin的依赖，同时解决气候问题？
Elon MuskI want to be super clear, my opinion: Germany should not only not shut down the nuclear power plants, it should reopen the ones that shut down. And those are the fastest ones to restart. It's crazy to shut down nuclear power plants now, especially if you're in a place where there's not natural disasters. So if you're maybe somewhere where there's severe earthquakes or tsunamis or something like that, it's more of a question mark, maybe. But if there's not massive natural disaster risk, which Germany does not have, then there's really no danger with the nuclear power plants.我想把我的观点说得非常清楚：德国不仅不应该关闭核电站，还应该重启那些已经关闭的。而且那些已经关闭的是最容易最快重启的。现在关闭核电站简直是疯了，尤其是在一个没有自然灾害的地方。如果你所在的地方有严重的地震或海啸风险，那也许还算是个问号。但如果没有重大自然灾害风险——而德国就是这种情况——那核电站根本没有任何危险。
HostAnd you don't see any safer alternatives that could have a similar effect? So solar and wind is not going to do it? With any other ideas in mind about future energy policy?你认为有没有其他更安全的替代方案能达到类似的效果？太阳能和风能不够用吗？对于未来的能源政策，你还有什么其他想法？
Elon MuskI think long term most of civilization's energy is going to come from solar, and then you need to store it with a battery, because obviously the sun only shines during the day, and sometimes it's very cloudy. So you need solar; solar plus batteries will be the main long-term way that civilization is powered. But between now and then we need to maintain nuclear. I can't emphasize enough, please do not shut down the nuclear power plants, and please reopen the ones that have been shut. This is total madness to shut them down. I want to be clear, total madness.我认为从长远来看，人类文明的大部分能源将来自太阳能，并且需要用电池来储能，因为太阳显然只在白天发光，而且有时会很阴。所以你需要太阳能；太阳能加储能电池将是人类文明长期的主要供能方式。但在那一天到来之前，我们需要维持核能。我怎么强调都不为过——请不要关闭核电站，请重启那些已经关闭的。关闭它们简直是彻底的疯狂。我想说清楚：彻底的疯狂。
HostLet's see whether your very clear words are heard in Germany.让我们看看你这番非常明确的话，德国能不能听进去。
Elon MuskI'm trying to use the strongest words. I would say this is a national security risk. It's not like — listen, playtime is over, okay. Obviously playtime is over. This is a national security risk to shut these things down.我在用最强烈的措辞。我想说，这是一个国家安全风险。不是说——听着，玩笑时间结束了，好吗。显然玩笑时间已经结束了。关闭这些设施是一个国家安全风险。
HostIt's another bitter lesson of that war. It is not only an issue with regard to climate.这是那场战争又一个沉痛的教训。这不仅仅是气候问题。
Elon MuskIt is very much an issue. It's a national security resolution and it's a climate issue. For replacing — I think people don't understand the coal power plants, because of their emissions they cause a certain number of deaths every year, far more dangerous than nuclear power plants.这确实是一个很严肃的问题。它既是国家安全问题，也是气候问题。要替代核能，用来替代它的——我认为人们不了解燃煤电厂，因为燃煤电厂的排放每年会导致一定数量的死亡，比核电站危险得多。
HostDo you have any other, let's say, unconventional ideas to deal with the challenge of climate change? Is it possible through the reduction of consumption and through new forms of energy to resolve it completely without China being completely aligned, or should we have a different way to look at it? Some people are saying perhaps instead of just trying to avoid a warmer climate, we should focus on how to live with a warmer climate and adapt to that. Is that an option?你有没有什么其他的、姑且叫做非传统的想法，来应对气候变化的挑战？在中国没有完全配合的情况下，能否通过减少消费和发展新能源来彻底解决这个问题？还是说我们应该换一种思路？有些人说，也许与其努力避免气候变暖，不如专注于如何与更热的气候共存并适应它。这是一个可行的选项吗？
Elon MuskI think we just want to take the set of actions that accelerate the transition to a sustainable energy economy. And that sustainable energy economy is going to be, like I said, primarily solar with wind. You absolutely need stationary storage batteries because of the intermittency of solar and wind. And then there will also be hydroelectric, geothermal, nuclear — these are all fine. But we want to just move as quickly as we can to a sort of a solar electric economy. You know, sometimes people say, oh well, it's cloudy or something, what about solar? And it's like, do plants grow? They're a solar-powered chemical reaction. If plants grow, you have solar power, obviously. How do you think they grow?我认为我们只要采取一切能加速向可持续能源经济转型的行动就好了。就像我说的，那个可持续能源经济主要将由太阳能和风能驱动。你绝对需要固定式储能电池，因为太阳能和风能本身是间歇性的。此外还有水电、地热和核能——这些都很好。我们就是要尽快迈向太阳能电力经济。有时候人们会说，哦，天气阴沉怎么办，太阳能不行呢？这就好比问：植物能生长吗？植物就是一种以太阳能驱动的化学反应。如果植物能生长，你显然就有了太阳能。你觉得它们靠什么生长的？
Elon MuskI think we just want to try to move this quickly as possible. And I do want to emphasize that while I think solar will be the main source of energy, it won't be everything. There'll be nuclear, hydroelectric, geothermal, wind. And the faster we get there the better for the world. We're kind of running this climate experiment, but it's an experiment where we know that it's pointless, because we know ultimately we will run out of coal and oil and gas. This is not going to last forever, and so we have to transition to something that is long-term in any case, because we will run out of hydrocarbons to burn. So then let's just not run the experiment. But I'm much less of a climate alarmist than people might think, although of course my words are sometimes amplified.我认为我们只需要尽可能快地推进这一转型。我还想强调，虽然太阳能将是主要能源来源，但不会是全部。核能、水电、地热、风能都会有一席之地。我们越快到达那一步，对世界越好。我们现在相当于在进行一场气候实验，但这个实验其实毫无意义，因为我们知道煤炭、石油和天然气终将耗尽。这些东西不会永远存在，所以我们无论如何都必须转型到某种长期可持续的方案，因为化石燃料总有烧完的一天。那我们就干脆不要做这个实验了。不过总体而言，我对气候问题的警惕程度比人们想象的要低得多——当然，我的话有时会被放大。
HostHow is it going to look like in 15 years, better than today?15年后会是什么样子，会比今天更好吗？
Elon MuskMuch better than today, from a sustainable energy standpoint much better. Yeah, much better.会比今天好得多，从可持续能源的角度来看会好得多。对，好得多。
HostSo your bet is we are going to solve the climate issue?所以你押注我们能解决气候问题？
Elon MuskYes, absolutely we will solve the climate issue. It's just a question of when. And I'd say the fundamental good of Tesla should be thought of as: by how many years did Tesla accelerate the sustainable energy revolution? That's the fundamental historic good of Tesla. Not whether it would occur — it would occur anyway — but by how many years can Tesla accelerate that transition.是的，我们绝对能解决气候问题。只是时间问题。我认为Tesla对历史的根本贡献应该这样来衡量：Tesla让可持续能源革命提前了多少年？这才是Tesla根本的历史贡献。不是它会不会发生——它无论如何都会发生——而是Tesla能让这一转型提前多少年。
HostYou once told me about population, that the decrease of reproduction rate, birth rate, is one of the most underestimated problems of our times. Can you explain?你曾经和我谈到人口问题，说生育率、出生率的下降是我们这个时代最被低估的问题之一。能解释一下吗？
Elon MuskYeah, so most people in the world are operating under the false impression that there are too many people. This is not true. Earth could maintain a population many times its current level. And the birth rate has been dropping like crazy. And unfortunately we have these ridiculous population estimates from the UN that need to be updated, because they just don't make any sense. Really you can just look at, say, what was the birth rate last year, how many kids were born, multiply that by the life expectancy and say, okay, that's how many people will be alive in the future. And then say, is the trend for birth rate positive or negative? It's negative. So that's the best case, unless something changes with the birth rate.是的，世界上大多数人都有一个错误的印象，认为地球人口太多了。这是不对的。地球完全可以维持比现在多出许多倍的人口。而出生率正在急剧下降。不幸的是，联合国那些荒唐的人口预测数字还没有更新，因为它们根本说不通。你真的只需要看看，比如去年的出生率是多少、生了多少孩子，乘以预期寿命，就能得出未来将有多少人口。然后再问：出生率的趋势是正向还是负向？是负向的。所以在出生率没有任何改变的情况下，这就是最乐观的预估了。
Elon MuskI mean, you can take Japan for example. I think — I'm just going off memory here — but I think the population is roughly 110 million. But last year, if you take the number of children born times the life expectancy, which is 85 years, it's very impressive life expectancy, then Japan would have, I think, around 68 million people. Roughly half of the current population. And that does not tell the full story, because you would have an upside-down demographic pyramid. You already have an upside-down demographic pyramid where you have a lot of old people, very few young people. And how is that — that upside-down demographic pyramid is unstable.以日本为例。我就凭记忆说了——我记得日本人口大约是1亿1千万。但去年，如果把出生人数乘以预期寿命——日本的预期寿命是85岁，非常了不起——那么日本的未来人口将只有大约6800万，大约是现在的一半。而且这还没说完，因为你会得到一个倒置的人口金字塔。现在就已经有一个倒置的人口金字塔了：老年人很多，年轻人很少。这个倒置的人口金字塔是不稳定的。
HostThat's also here why we'll need alternatives. You have recently presented Optimus and you shared great expectations of what that could do for the world. Could you explain a little bit your motivation? I assume it's not only about the first visit to Mars that could be done by Optimus. It is more than that, a game changer in AI. Could you share a little bit your vision?这也是为什么我们需要替代方案。你最近展示了Optimus，并对它可能为世界带来的影响抱有很大的期待。能解释一下你的动机吗？我猜这不只是关于Optimus可以完成的首次火星探访。它更多的是——一个AI领域的游戏改变者。能分享一下你的愿景吗？
Elon MuskYeah, I mean with respect to AI and robotics, I always approach these things with some trepidation, because I certainly do not want to play a hand in anything that could potentially be harmful to humanity. Now, humanoid robots, they're clearly happening. I mean, you look at like Boston Dynamics, their demonstrations are better every year. So there will be humanoid robots. The rate of advancement of AI is very rapid. Even if Tesla stopped doing AI, I think we're still on a track to develop artificial general intelligence, meaning intelligence smarter than the smartest human.是的，关于AI和机器人，我每次涉足这些领域都会有些忐忑，因为我绝对不想在任何可能对人类有害的事情上推一把。现在，人形机器人显然已经是大势所趋了。你看Boston Dynamics，他们每年的演示都更进一步。所以人形机器人是肯定会出现的。AI的进步速度非常快。就算Tesla停止做AI，我认为我们仍在走向开发通用人工智能的轨道上——也就是比最聪明的人类还要聪明的智能。
HostConcretely, Optimus is going to be used in Tesla factories, that's one of the use cases, but what is the broader use case beyond Tesla?具体来说，Optimus将在Tesla工厂中使用，这是使用场景之一。但在Tesla之外，更广泛的应用场景是什么？
Elon MuskYeah, I mean Optimus is a general purpose sort of worker droid. So the initial roles for Optimus would be in work that is repetitive, boring, dangerous, that kind of thing. Basically work that people don't want to do unless they're paid to do it.Optimus是一种通用型工作机器人。它最初的用途将是处理重复性的、枯燥的、危险的工作，诸如此类。基本上就是那些人们不愿意做、除非给钱才肯做的工作。
HostWhy has Optimus two legs? Just because it looks like a human being, or is it more practical? I thought four legs are better.Optimus为什么是两条腿？只是因为它看起来像人，还是有更实际的考量？我本来以为四条腿更好。
Elon MuskFour legs good, two legs bad? It reminds me of Orwell. Humanity has designed the world to interact with a bipedal humanoid with two arms and, you know, ten fingers. So if you want to have a robot fit in and be able to do things that humans can do, it must be of roughly the same size and shape and capability.四条腿好，两条腿坏？这让我想起了奥威尔。人类把整个世界设计成适合两足直立行走、有两只手臂和十根手指的人形生物来使用的。所以如果你想让一个机器人能够融入并做人类能做的事，它就必须与人类大致相同的体型、外形和能力。
HostThe prototype is going to be ready by the end of this year. When is it a product that can be mass marketed?原型机将在今年年底前完成。它什么时候能成为可以大规模推向市场的产品？
Elon MuskMass-produced, that's the hard part. I mean, I don't know, I think we'll have something pretty good at the prototype level this year, and it might be ready for at least a moderate volume production towards the end of next year.大规模量产——这才是难点。我不确定，我想今年我们能在原型层面做出相当不错的东西，明年年底前可能会达到至少一定规模的量产。
HostDo you think that Optimus is going to play a role in our daily life, helping us in the household and things like that?你认为Optimus会在我们的日常生活中发挥作用吗，比如帮助我们做家务之类的？
Elon MuskI think it probably would, yeah, I think so. It's just like, say, general purpose humanoid.我觉得大概会的，是的，我这样认为。就像，它就是一个通用型人形机器人嘛。
HostYou said the potential is bigger than the potential of Tesla. If that's true for cars, then it must be really a mass market product.你说Optimus的潜力比Tesla还大。如果对汽车来说都能做到这一点，那它一定真的是一个大众市场产品。
Elon MuskYeah, sure. Well, I mean, say, what is an economy? People get confused sometimes, they think an economy is money. Money is a database for exchange of goods and services, and for time-shifting the exchange of goods and services. Money is a database; money doesn't have power in and of itself. Like, you can run the thought experiment: if you're trapped on a remote island, shipwrecked on an island, and you've got a trillion dollars in a Swiss bank account, it's worthless. You'd rather have a can of soup. All the bitcoin in the world, you're still going to starve.是的，当然。我是说，你说，经济是什么？人们有时会搞混，以为经济就是钱。钱是一个用于交换商品和服务、以及跨时间交换商品和服务的数据库。钱是数据库；钱本身没有任何能量。打个思想实验：如果你被困在一个偏远的荒岛上，在某个岛上船沉了，而你在瑞士银行账户里有一万亿美元，那它一文不值。你宁愿有一罐汤。世界上所有的比特币，你照样会饿死。
Elon MuskSo the actual economy is goods and services. So then, what limits the output of goods and services? The limiter is labor. Even capital is distilled labor. So the limiting factor for the economy is labor. And so if you address the limiting factor for the economy, then it's not clear that an economy in the traditional sense has any meaning anymore, because you have no constraint on goods and services. The only things that will be missing are things that have artificial scarcity, that we decide to make scarce, like a particular piece of art, or a particular home in this exact location or something like that. But there will be no shortage of goods and services.所以真正的经济是商品和服务。那么，什么限制了商品和服务的产出？限制因素是劳动力。就连资本也是凝结的劳动力。所以经济的限制因素是劳动力。如果你解决了经济的限制因素，那传统意义上的经济或许就不再有任何意义了，因为你对商品和服务没有任何约束了。唯一会缺少的，是那些具有人为稀缺性的东西——我们决定让它稀缺的，比如某件特定的艺术品，或者某个特定位置的某栋特定的房子之类的。但商品和服务将不再匮乏。
Elon MuskBut anyway, Optimus is also an answer to the problem of the drop in birth rates. If we have not enough human people, want more bots to get the work done. Optimus will be helpful with respect to dropping birth rates. But I mean, like I said, you have to say, if these things continue, then what happens? Humanity dies out. Is that what we want?不过话说回来，Optimus也是对出生率下降问题的一个答案。如果我们没有足够多的人，就需要更多机器人来完成工作。Optimus在应对出生率下降方面将大有帮助。但我是说，就像我说的，你得问，如果这些趋势持续下去，会发生什么？人类会灭绝。这是我们想要的吗？
HostOr step by step replaced by artificial intelligence — human beings that Neuralink is empowering?或者说，人类一步步被人工智能取代——被Neuralink赋能的那种人工智能人类？
Elon MuskWell, yeah, I mean Neuralink in the short term is just about solving brain injuries and spinal injuries and that kind of thing. So to be clear, for many years Neuralink products will just be helpful to someone who has lost the use of their arms, or arms and legs, or who has just a traumatic brain injury of some kind. That's what Neuralink will be useful for for many years.Neuralink在短期内，只是关于解决脑损伤和脊髓损伤之类的问题。说清楚一点，在很多年内，Neuralink的产品只是对那些失去手臂功能、或者手脚都失去功能、或者遭受某种创伤性脑损伤的人有帮助。这就是Neuralink在很多年内的用途。
HostBut you know, our last conversation you said that Neuralink is among all your projects for you the most important one. Is that still true?但你知道，上次我们谈话时你说，在你所有的项目中，Neuralink对你来说是最重要的。现在还是这样吗？
Elon MuskI know I said it could be. I wouldn't say for sure it is the most important, but it could be the most important, in that there is a long-term mitigation to artificial intelligence, which is that we could effectively merge with artificial intelligence by improving the speed of interaction between our cortex and our tertiary layer, which is already silicon. We're basically already a sort of a three-level intelligence creature. The base level is the limbic system, the sort of animal brain or reptile brain essentially, the sort of fundamental — yeah, that animal or reptile brain. And then there's the cortex, which the cortex, by the way, is largely in service to the reptile brain.我记得我说的是它可能是。我不确定它一定就是最重要的，但它可能是最重要的——因为对人工智能存在一种长期的缓解方案，那就是通过提升我们皮质与第三层（也就是已经是硅基的那层）之间的交互速度，我们实际上可以与人工智能融合。我们基本上已经是某种三层智能生物了。最基础的层是边缘系统，也就是动物脑或爬行动物脑，某种根本性的——对，那种动物脑或爬行动物脑。然后是皮质，顺便说一句，皮质在很大程度上是为爬行动物脑服务的。
HostCould you imagine that one day we would be able to download our human brain capacity into an Optimus?你能想象有一天我们能把人类大脑的能力下载到Optimus里吗？
Elon MuskYes, I think that — I'm not saying this is — I think it is possible to do that. Which would be a different way of eternal life, because we would also download our personalities into a bot.可以，我认为——我不是说这已经确定——我认为这在技术上是可能实现的。那将是一种不同的永生方式，因为我们同样可以把我们的人格下载到机器人里。
HostYes, we could download the things that we believe make ourselves unique?是的，我们可以下载那些我们认为让自己独一无二的东西？
Elon MuskNow of course, if you're not in a body anymore, there's definitely going to be some difference there. But as far as preserving our memories, our personality if you will, we could, I think we could do that.当然，如果你不再住在一个身体里，肯定会有一些差异。但就保留我们的记忆、可以说是我们的人格而言，我认为我们能做到。
HostThe moment of singularity that Ray Kurzweil has, I think, predicted for '25 is approaching fast. Do you think the timeline is still realistic?Ray Kurzweil预测的奇点时刻——我记得他预测的是2025年——正在快速临近。你认为这个时间线现在还现实吗？
Elon MuskWell, I see this as not — I used to — I'm not sure this is a singularity, meaning I'm not sure there's a very sharp boundary. I mean already there's so much compute that we outsource. Our memories are stored in our phones and computers with the pictures and video. Computers and phones amplify our ability to communicate, enabling us to do things that would have been considered magical and had you burned at the stake maybe 300 years ago. You could have two people have a video call basically for free from two parts of the world, on opposite sides of the world. It's amazing. So we've already amplified our human brains massively with computers.我觉得这不——我以前觉得——我不确定这算不算奇点，意思是我不确定会不会有一个非常清晰的边界。我是说，我们已经把大量的计算任务外包出去了。我们的记忆存储在手机和电脑里，存着照片和视频。电脑和手机放大了我们的沟通能力，让我们能做到300年前可能被人当作巫术烧死的事情。两个身处世界两端的人可以免费进行视频通话。太不可思议了。所以我们早就已经用电脑大幅放大了人类的大脑。
Elon MuskAnd I think an interesting ratio to roughly calculate would be the amount of compute that is digital divided by the amount of compute that is biological, and how does that ratio change over time. And with so much digital compute happening so fast, that ratio is increasing rapidly.我认为一个有趣的比值值得粗略计算一下：数字计算量除以生物计算量，以及这个比值如何随时间变化。随着数字计算以如此之快的速度爆发，这个比值正在迅速上升。
HostTalking about speed, you have the vision that one day Starship could be able to get from A to B in 30 minutes all around the globe. Is that correct, and if so, what would the time frame for this vision be?说到速度，你有个愿景，说有一天Starship能在30分钟内把你从地球上任意一点送到另一点。这个说法正确吗？如果是，这个愿景的时间框架是什么？
Elon MuskIt's like a global super taxi. You can just go from, I mean, San Francisco to Nairobi. The landing will be loud, so you'd want to probably be connecting cities that are next to oceans or seas, such that you can land maybe far enough offshore that the landing noise is not disturbing to people. But coast to coast that would be a realistic — absolutely, yeah. It's like an ICBM, but you change the option package from nuclear to landing. Delete the nuke, add landing.这就像是一个全球超级出租车。你可以直接从旧金山飞到内罗毕。降落的声音会很大，所以你可能需要把航线设计成连接靠近海洋或海边的城市，这样可以在距岸边足够远的海面上降落，不会打扰到居民。但沿海城市之间，这绝对是现实可行的——当然可以。就像一枚洲际弹道导弹，只不过你把选装包从核弹换成了降落。把核弹去掉，加上降落功能。
HostElon, you have solved so many problems of mankind and presented so many solutions. I'm surprised that one topic seems not to be too fascinating for you, and that is the project of longevity and increased lifespan significantly. Why are you not passionate about that?Elon，你已经解决了那么多人类的难题，也提出了那么多解决方案。我很惊讶，有一个话题似乎对你没什么吸引力，那就是长寿和大幅延长寿命的项目。为什么你对此不热衷？
HostWell, you're not personally interested in living longer?好，你本人对于活得更长不感兴趣吗？
Elon MuskI mean, I don't think we should try to have people live for a very long time. For a very long time, that it would cause ossification of society, because the truth is most people don't change their mind, they just die. And so if they don't die, they will be stuck with old ideas and society won't advance. I think we already have quite a serious issue with the gerontocracy, where the leaders of so many countries are extremely old. Look, I mean in the US it's very, very ancient leadership, and it's just impossible to stay in touch with the people if you are many generations older than them.我不认为我们应该追求让人活得极长极长。如果人长命百岁，会导致社会的僵化——因为事实是，大多数人不会改变自己的想法，他们只是死去。如果他们不死，就会固守陈旧的观念，社会就无法进步。我认为我们已经在老人政治问题上面临相当严峻的困境——那么多国家的领导人极其年迈。你看美国，领导层真的非常非常老，而当你比大众年长好几代时，根本不可能与民众保持联系。
Elon MuskAnd the founders in the US, they put minimum ages for political office, but they did not put maximum ages, because they did not expect that people will be living so long. But they should have, because you really want, in order for a democracy to function well, the leaders must be reasonably in touch with the bulk of the population. And if you're too young or too old, you can't say that you would be in touch.美国的开国先贤为政治职务设置了最低年龄，却没有设置最高年龄，因为他们没预料到人们会活得这么久。但他们本应设置的，因为民主要正常运作，领导人就必须与大多数民众保持合理的联系。太年轻或太年老，都无法做到这一点。
HostIs there a kind of ideal age, and how old would you like to get?有没有一个理想的年龄，你自己希望活到多少岁？
Elon MuskWell, I think for political leadership, I think you want to be, I don't know, within — ideally within 10, or at least 20 years of the average age of the population. This doesn't sound too crazy. For me, I don't know, I certainly would like to maintain health for a longer period of time. But I'm not afraid of dying. I think it will come as a relief.对于政治领导人来说，我觉得理想情况是与民众平均年龄相差不超过——最好是10岁，至少20岁以内。这听起来不过分吧。对我自己，我不确定，我当然希望能更长时间地保持健康。但我不怕死。我觉得死去会是一种解脱。
HostSo only, you may not be able to see the vision of SpaceX come true in your life?所以只是——你可能无法在有生之年看到SpaceX的愿景实现？
Elon MuskWell, I'd like to live long enough to see that.嗯，我想活得足够久，能看到那一天。
HostBeing at a net worth of 230 billion roughly, being perceived as the richest person on Earth?以大约2300亿美元的净资产，被外界视为地球上最富有的人？
Elon MuskWell, I think Putin is significantly richer than me.我认为Putin比我有钱得多。
HostYou really do? Yes.你真这么认为？是的。
Elon MuskWell, I mean, I can't go invade countries and stuff. I believe — I mean there's like some old quote from, was it Crassus, that you're not really rich unless you can afford a legion.我是说，我又不能去侵略其他国家什么的。我记得有句古话，好像是Crassus说的，你不算真正富有，除非你养得起一支军团。
HostDo you know John Law?你认识John Law吗？
Elon MuskI don't know.我不知道这个人。
HostJohn Law used to be the richest person on Earth 300 years ago. He was a poker player, a gambler, and he was the biggest art collector on Earth, so a lot of superlatives. In the end he went bankrupt.John Law曾经是300年前地球上最富有的人。他是一名扑克玩家、赌徒，还是当时全球最大的艺术收藏家，集诸多第一于一身。最终他破产了。
Elon MuskWhat?什么？
HostSo pretty far to fall. Did you ever think about that option, that something could go wrong and that you could one day lose everything?跌得够惨的。你有没有想过这种可能性——某天事情出了差错，你可能有一天失去一切？
Elon MuskI mean, there's been many times where I expected to lose everything. I mean, who starts a car company and a rocket company expecting them to succeed? Certainly not me. I thought they both had less than a 10% chance of success, and frankly I wasn't wrong. In 2008 we had the third failure of SpaceX, and if the fourth launch had failed, SpaceX would be dead, in 2008. We had no money for a fifth launch. And for Tesla, we were — Tesla's been on the verge of bankruptcy many times.我是说，有太多次我都以为自己会失去一切了。我是说，谁创办一家汽车公司和一家火箭公司的时候，会预期它们能成功？我当然不会。我觉得它们成功的概率都不到10%，坦白说我也没说错。2008年SpaceX第三次发射失败了，如果第四次发射也失败，SpaceX在2008年就玩完了。我们没有资金支持第五次发射。Tesla那边，Tesla也多次濒临破产。
Elon MuskWe closed the financing round in 2008, because remember, at the end of 2008 General Motors and Chrysler were going bankrupt and Ford was almost bankrupt. So imagine trying to raise money for an electric car startup while General Motors is going bankrupt, and people were angry that I even asked. But we were able to just barely raise enough money to squeak by and close the financing round for Tesla on the last hour of the last day that was possible, on Christmas Eve 2008. And if we'd not closed that financing round, then it would go bankrupt two days after Christmas. So you know what you're talking about. Yes, this John Law, like, bankrupt fine or whatever, I don't care.我们在2008年完成了那一轮融资，因为要记住，2008年底通用汽车和克莱斯勒都在破产，福特也几乎要破产。想象一下，在通用汽车都在破产的时候，你还要去为一家电动车初创公司融资，人们甚至对我开口要钱这件事本身就很愤怒。但我们还是勉强凑到了足够的钱，在最后期限的最后一个小时完成了Tesla的融资，也就是2008年的平安夜。如果那轮融资没有完成，Tesla会在圣诞节后两天破产。所以你知道我在说什么。是的，那个John Law，破产就破产吧，我无所谓。
HostJohn Law got famous with the sentence, l'économie c'est moi, the economy is me.John Law以那句话而出名：l'économie c'est moi，我就是经济。
Elon MuskI just — got French or English?我只是——说法语还是英语？
HostAs he said, yeah, there's like a nice phrase in French. He worked in France and his main language then was French. So the question is, do you see any danger that one day not only big platforms like Google or Facebook could face much more rigid regulation, but that Elon Musk could be regulated because of regulation?就像他说的，法语里有句漂亮的话。他在法国工作，当时的主要语言是法语。所以问题是，你是否担心有一天，不仅像Google或Facebook这样的大型平台会面临更严格的监管，Elon Musk本人也会因为某种监管而被限制？
Elon MuskActually, as it is, you know, SpaceX and Tesla are regulated.事实上，现在的情况是，SpaceX和Tesla都是受监管的。
HostNo, but I mean that there could be a discussion that it's just too much, like in too many areas, like I have too much power personally or something.不，我的意思是，可能会有人讨论说，这已经太多了，涉足的领域太多了，比如个人权力过大之类的。
Elon MuskWell, I mean, if you build in many sectors that are absolutely crucial to a society, very dominating — see you on Mars, suckers. That's the —我是说，如果你在对社会绝对关键的很多领域都做到了高度主导——火星见，蠢货们。那就是——
HostYeah, okay. So one way to avoid that is to be a good citizen, and you are, and you have your own foundation. Could you tell us a little bit about your projects, what your foundation is going to do in the future, what your priorities are — to donate money and to improve the world beyond your business activities?好的好的。所以避免那种情况的一个方法是做一个好公民，而你就是，你也有自己的基金会。能不能跟我们介绍一下你的项目——你的基金会未来打算做什么，你的优先事项是什么——在你的商业活动之外，捐钱改善世界？
Elon MuskYeah, I mean, I do want to emphasize that SpaceX and Tesla are fundamentally intended to improve the probability of the future is good. So they will do more than anything I do from a charitable standpoint in terms of usefulness to humanity. I mean, Tesla's about accelerating sustainable energy, obviously that's important. SpaceX is about making life multi-planetary, and of course providing global internet through Starlink. These are fundamental goods that the good of those companies will far exceed anything that I do from a charitable standpoint. And I have to say, it is very difficult to give away money effectively if you care about the money actually doing good and not merely the perception of doing good.是的，我想强调一点，SpaceX和Tesla从根本上是为了提高未来走向美好的概率而存在的。所以在对人类的实际价值上，它们将超过我从慈善角度所能做的一切。Tesla是关于加速可持续能源转型，这显然很重要。SpaceX是关于让生命成为多行星物种，当然还通过Starlink提供全球互联网。这些都是根本性的善，这两家公司所做的好事将远远超过我在慈善上所能做的。我必须说，如果你真的在乎钱能真正做到好事，而不仅仅是看上去做了好事，那有效地捐钱是非常困难的。
HostBut do you see any concrete project that you would like to focus on, like for example food supply, starvation as a big topic, or anything else that comes to your mind for your foundation activities?但你有没有想到什么具体的项目愿意重点关注——比如食品供应、饥饿这样的大议题，或者你对基金会活动还有什么其他想法？
Elon MuskWell, like I said, it's a big struggle to give away money effectively if you care about the reality of doing good and not the perception of doing good. Then it is very hard to give away money effectively, and I care about the reality, perception be damned. So there's, you know, obviously environmental causes, there's education, especially science and engineering education, pediatric health care. Hunger these days is more of a political and logistics problem than it is not having enough food. There's a lot of food, in fact. You know, in the US, in many, many countries, the issue is more obesity than it is hunger. But I'm always looking for ways to give away money that are effective. Like, what do you think I should do?就像我说的，如果你在乎实际做到好事而不仅仅是看上去做了好事，那有效地捐钱就非常困难。我在乎实际效果，管它外界怎么看。所以，环保事业当然有，还有教育，尤其是科学和工程教育，儿科医疗保健。现在饥饿问题更多是政治和物流问题，而不是食物不够。食物其实很多。你知道，在美国，在很多很多国家，问题更多是肥胖而不是饥饿。但我一直在寻找有实效的捐钱方式。你觉得我该怎么做？
HostYou know what, heroes — underrated heroes are the people who are doing a service in hospitals, helping elderly people, and I think they don't have a lobby. So I think to do something for them, because we all need them if we are in trouble.你知道吗，真正被低估的英雄是那些在医院服务、照顾老年人的人，我觉得他们没有什么话语权。所以我认为应该为他们做点什么，因为我们一旦遇到困难，都需要他们。
Elon MuskSure.当然。
HostThink about it: if you Google Elon Musk, I think you have 156 million search results. Really? 76 million Twitter followers. You are definitely one of the most popular people on Earth. Is popularity a pleasure or a liability for you?想想看：如果你谷歌搜索Elon Musk，大概有1亿5600万条搜索结果。真的吗？7600万Twitter粉丝。你绝对是地球上最有名的人之一。名气对你来说是一种享受，还是一种负担？
Elon MuskWell, it makes it difficult to go buy a coffee at the corner store, that's for sure. So it's hard to go around places. I used to be able to just go to the store or walk down the street, and now it's quite difficult to do that.这让我很难去街角咖啡店买杯咖啡，这是肯定的。出门很难。我以前随时可以去商店或者在街上走走，现在这变得相当困难。
HostIt reminds me a bit of the former chancellor of Germany, Helmut Kohl, who once told me: you cannot imagine how terrible it is to go to a restaurant, everybody recognizes you, who comes to your table, ask you for an autograph, that's terrible. There is only one thing in life that is worse: if nobody comes to your table anymore.这让我想起了德国前总理Helmut Kohl，他曾对我说：你无法想象去餐厅有多可怕——每个人都认出你，跑来你桌边要签名，太糟糕了。但生命中只有一件事比这更糟：如果再也没有人到你桌边来了。
Elon MuskI suppose so. Well, I really — it's hard for me to go to a restaurant, so, and if I do, I just try to find a corner table that's kind of dimly lit or something, where I can sort of stay out of the way.我想也是吧。我真的——去餐厅对我来说很难，所以如果我去，我就尽量找一个角落里光线昏暗的桌子，可以某种程度上不那么显眼。
HostBut you cannot turn around. Is there anything that you most urgently want to achieve?但你无法回头了。有没有什么是你最迫切想要实现的？
Elon MuskWell, I mean, the pressing items in the short term are completing full self-driving, so that we have full self-driving operating at a substantially safer level than humans. Basically it comes down to solving the problem of real-world AI. That consumes a lot of my mind. And then getting Starship to work, not just to get to orbit but to achieve full and rapid reusability, which is really the holy grail of rocketry that is necessary for humanity to become a multi-planet species.短期内最紧迫的事情，是完成完全自动驾驶——让完全自动驾驶在安全性上达到显著超越人类的水平。归根结底，这是在解决现实世界AI的问题。这占据了我大量的思考。然后是让Starship成功运作，不只是进入轨道，而是实现完全快速的可复用——这才是火箭技术的圣杯，也是人类成为多行星物种的必要条件。
HostIs there anything that you really would like to achieve which you think is going to be impossible?有没有什么你真的很想实现、但觉得几乎不可能的事？
Elon MuskImpossible is a strong word.「不可能」是个很强的词。
HostYou don't like that word?你不喜欢这个词？
Elon MuskWell, it's just a strong word. I sort of approach things from a physics standpoint, and the word impossible is more or less banned in physics. I'm really worried about this birth rate thing. That's been troubling me for many years, because I just don't see it turning around. You know, every year it's worse, and I drive my friends crazy.只是它太强了。我习惯从物理学的角度看问题，「不可能」这个词在物理学里基本上是被禁用的。我真的很担心出生率这件事。这困扰了我很多年，因为我就是看不到它有任何好转的迹象。每年都在变差，我把朋友们都烦死了。
HostAdvice perhaps — that's a project for your foundation?或许——这是你基金会的一个项目方向？
Elon MuskSure.当然。
HostOkay, you're a multi-talent person. Is there any field of total incompetence?好的，你是一个多才多艺的人。有没有哪个领域是你完全不行的？
Elon MuskI'm terrible at dancing.我跳舞很烂。
HostAlthough you like techno music so much.虽然你那么喜欢电子音乐。
Elon MuskYeah, but the nice thing about techno is you don't have to be able to dance very well, you can just jump around basically.是啊，但电子音乐的妙处在于，你不需要跳得多好，基本上蹦蹦跳跳就行了。
HostWalter Isaacson is planning a biography, and he has written a biography on Einstein, on Steve Jobs, on Benjamin Franklin, and Leonardo da Vinci, among the four. With whom would you like to meet and have a glass of wine?Walter Isaacson正在写一本传记，他之前写过Einstein、Steve Jobs、Benjamin Franklin和Leonardo da Vinci的传记，就是这四位。你最想和其中哪一位共饮一杯？
Elon MuskWell, I mean, we're honored to meet any of them even for a minute. I think Ben Franklin would be the most fun at dinner.能见到他们中的任何一位哪怕一分钟都是莫大的荣幸。我觉得Ben Franklin在饭桌上会是最有趣的。
HostAnd who is the one where you would say I'm closest to him? Would it be Leonardo da Vinci?那你最像哪一位？会是Leonardo da Vinci吗？
Elon MuskI think I'm — you are a Renaissance — pretty different from those people. It might actually be Ben Franklin, frankly. You know, he did a lot of science and engineering stuff. I don't know. But it's funny, da Vinci thought of himself first and foremost as an engineer, and in his application, like when he applied for his position — that enabled him to create a lot of the art — his application was all about his engineering stuff, and then at the end, and also I do some art. It was just funny that da Vinci really thought of himself as an engineer. And for the time he was pretty impressive.我觉得我——你是说文艺复兴式的——和他们都挺不同的。可能其实最像Ben Franklin吧，坦白说。你知道，他做了大量的科学和工程方面的事。我不确定。不过有意思的是，da Vinci首先将自己视为一名工程师，在他的求职申请里——那份申请让他得以创作大量艺术作品——他写的全是关于工程的内容，最后才顺带一提，哦对，我也画一些画。有意思的是，da Vinci真的把自己当成工程师。以那个时代来看，他相当了不起。
HostThe German author Thomas Mann once said the purpose of life is to be an engineer in the interest of progress of mankind. Is that a good definition for your own ambitions?德国作家Thomas Mann曾经说过，人生的意义在于成为一名为人类进步服务的工程师。这对于你自己的抱负来说，是一个好的定义吗？
Elon MuskYeah, I think that is a good definition.是的，我认为这是一个很好的定义。
HostIs freedom for you the most important value of the society?自由对你来说是社会最重要的价值吗？
Elon MuskNo, I think not being dead is — I mean, like, no, society if everybody just cares about that. You know, I'm just saying there's a Maslow's hierarchy of, like, okay, these days — back in the old days, a good year would be a year where not that many people died of hunger, plague, not that many people froze to death, and not that many people were killed by the neighboring tribe. Back in the days, if it was like, hey, we only lost 5% last year, that was great. Now those things are not concerns anywhere near the level of what they would be in the past.不，我觉得活着才是——我是说，如果每个人都只关心自由。你知道，我只是说，有一个马斯洛式的层级。好，现在——在过去，一个好年份就是那一年里没有太多人死于饥饿、瘟疫，没有太多人被冻死，也没有太多人被邻近部落杀死。过去的人，如果说嘿，去年我们只损失了5%，那已经很好了。现在这些事情的威胁已经远远不及过去了。
HostWhat did COVID do to the freedom in our society?新冠对我们社会中的自由做了什么？
Elon MuskWell, I think freedom was severely restricted with COVID.我觉得新冠期间自由受到了严重限制。
HostDo you think it's a long-term effect? Do you think we are going back to old norms?你认为这是长期效应吗？我们能回到从前的规范吗？
Elon MuskWell, the jury's out on that front.这个问题，陪审团还没有定论。
HostAre you worried?你担心吗？
Elon MuskYeah, I think that — I think we should roll back government power that was massively increased in the COVID times. You know, I think we're at the tail end of it, or it's no longer a major concern, and so we need to actively roll back the powers of government that were created during COVID.是的，我认为——我们应该收回新冠期间被大幅扩张的政府权力。我觉得我们已经进入尾声，或者说那不再是主要威胁，所以我们需要主动收回新冠期间赋予政府的那些权力。
HostYou once said on Mars, if there's human life, there should be direct democracy.你曾经说过，如果火星上有人类生命，应该实行直接民主。
Elon MuskYes, I think direct democracy is less susceptible to corruption than representative democracy. I mean, the other recommendations that I'd like — any laws need to be short enough that everyone can read them, as well. And there should be — it should be easier to get rid of a law than make one.是的，我认为直接民主比代议制民主更不容易受到腐败的侵蚀。我还有一些建议——任何法律都应该足够简短，让每个人都能读完。而且废除一部法律应该比制定一部法律更容易。
HostDo you see any positive effects in the COVID pandemic?你认为新冠疫情有没有带来什么积极的影响？
Elon MuskI think there are many, many silver linings. The advancement of synthetic RNA was accelerated significantly because of COVID, and it's going to help with cancer, allergies, bacterial diseases.我认为有很多很多积极的一面。合成RNA技术的进步因为新冠得到了显著加速，它将有助于对抗癌症、过敏和细菌性疾病。
HostYeah, yes.是的，是的。
Elon MuskI mean, synthetic RNA is revolutionary medicine that most people are not aware of, just how much of a revolution that is. I would say this is like medicine going from analog to digital.合成RNA是革命性的医学，但大多数人还没有意识到这场革命有多深刻。我想说，这就像医学从模拟时代进入了数字时代。
HostAnd that could be the big accelerator here, like during the plague which also was an accelerator of progress in society and medical progress, big times.这可能是这里最大的加速器，就像历史上的瘟疫——那也是社会进步和医学进步的加速器，影响极其深远。
Elon MuskYes. It's actually interesting, you know, English was suppressed in England for quite a long time because William the Conqueror was Norman French. I mean, so it wasn't even French French, it was like a different version of French. But that was the official language, and the courts were only in French for hundreds of years. In England if you wanted to go to court, you had to either be able to speak Norman French or hire someone who could. And then the plague got so bad, so many lawyers died in the plague, that they didn't have enough people who could speak French for the court. So they said, okay, we have to have the courts in English, because there aren't enough people alive who can speak Norman French.是的。其实有个有趣的事，你知道，英语在英格兰曾经被压制了相当长的时间，因为征服者威廉是诺曼法语人。我是说，那甚至不是标准法语，而是法语的一种不同变体。但那是官方语言，法庭几百年来只用法语运作。在英格兰，如果你想上法庭，你要么得会说诺曼法语，要么得雇一个会说的人。后来瘟疫越来越严重，死了太多律师，没有足够的人能讲法语来维持法庭运作。于是他们说，好吧，我们得用英语开庭了，因为能说诺曼法语的人已经不够了。
HostSo indirectly the plague was a trigger of democratization of society.所以间接来说，瘟疫是社会民主化的一个触发点。
Elon MuskI mean, yeah, it actually did, I think, for society as a whole improve things, at least based on my observation of things in England. People were actually able to speak English in courts, because they had no other choice. And a lot of other things were improved. There was a labor shortage because of the plague, and so that gave, put a lot more power in the hands of laborers, and gave them more freedom of action.我是说，是的，我认为它确实总体上改善了社会，至少根据我对英格兰情况的观察。人们在法庭上终于可以说英语了，因为别无选择。还有很多其他方面也得到了改善。瘟疫造成了劳动力短缺，这给了劳动者更多的权力，也给了他们更多的行动自由。
HostSo Elon, I think we have to come to an end, but just a couple of very brief questions. What is your biggest fear?那么Elon，我想我们该说到尾声了，最后几个非常简短的问题。你最大的恐惧是什么？
Elon MuskWell, I think there's — you have to say, like, what are the existential threats that humanity faces. We spent a lot of time talking about the birth rate thing. That might be the biggest single threat to the future of human civilization. Then there's artificial intelligence gone wrong is a big concern. I think religious extremism is a concern.我觉得你得问，人类面临哪些生存威胁。我们花了很多时间谈出生率这件事。那可能是对人类文明未来最大的单一威胁。然后是AI走偏，这是个很大的担忧。我认为宗教极端主义也是一个问题。
HostYou know what is your biggest hope?你最大的希望是什么？
Elon MuskMy biggest hope is that humanity creates a self-sustaining city on Mars.我最大的希望是人类在火星上建立一座能自给自足的城市。
HostYou said that you cannot be and don't want to be alone. I very much share that feeling. Where does it come from?你说你不能、也不想独处。我非常理解这种感受。这种感受从何而来？
Elon MuskI think it's just a natural human reaction. I mean, a lot of people are happy if they are alone, I don't — I really, I think most people are not happy being alone.我觉得这只是一种自然的人类反应。当然，有很多人喜欢独处，但我——我真的觉得，大多数人独处是不快乐的。
HostDo you feel lonely?你会感到孤独吗？
Elon MuskI mean, there are times when I feel lonely, yes. But I think it's pretty basic. Like, if I'm, say, working on this Starship rocket down at, you know, South Texas, and I'm just staying in my little house by myself, especially if I forget my dog — you know, if my dog is not with me, then I feel quite lonely, because I'm just in a little house by myself with not even a dog.我是说，有时候我确实会感到孤独。但我觉得这很基本。比如，如果我在得克萨斯州南部研究Starship火箭，就住在我的小房子里，如果我忘了带狗——你知道，如果我的狗不在身边，我会相当孤独，因为我就是一个人住在一个小房子里，连狗都没有。
HostLast question. You have once said, if I'm not in love I cannot be happy. Are you happy at the moment?最后一个问题。你曾经说过，如果没有在爱里，我就无法幸福。你现在幸福吗？
Elon MuskI think there's degrees of love. But certainly to be fully happy, I think you have to be happy at work and happy in love. So I'm medium happy. There are degrees of happiness.我觉得爱有程度之分。但要完全幸福，我觉得你必须在工作上幸福，也在感情上幸福。所以我是中等幸福。幸福是有程度的。
HostCan love for projects, for work, compensate love among people?对项目、对工作的热爱，能弥补人与人之间的感情吗？
Elon MuskI think love of work, in my experience, could at best make one halfway happy.根据我的经验，对工作的热爱，充其量能让人达到一半的幸福感。
HostPerhaps that's your biggest hope, to be really in love?也许那才是你最大的希望，真正坠入爱河？
Elon MuskI have been, in the past. I try to be as literal as possible. I would be happy if humanity has a self-sustaining city on Mars, because then the probable lifespan of humanity is much greater. You know, I think we really just got this consciousness, like this little candle of consciousness, like a small light in the void, and we don't want that small candle in a vast darkness to be put out.我曾经有过，在过去。我尽量把话说得字面一点。如果人类在火星上有了一座能自给自足的城市，我会感到幸福，因为那样人类的预期寿命会大得多。你知道，我觉得我们真的只是拥有了这一点意识，就像黑暗中一根小小的蜡烛，一片虚空中的一点微光，我们不想让这片广袤黑暗中的小小烛光被熄灭。
HostThank you very much, Elon, for that conversation.非常感谢你，Elon，感谢这次谈话。
Elon MuskAll right, thank you.好的，谢谢你。