Tim DoddHi, it's me, Tim Dodd, the Everyday Astronaut. Welcome back to Starbase. This is part two of our tour with Elon Musk, and part one we took you around Starfactory. We saw what's new. A lot's changed in two years, but in this one we're gonna take you out to the launchpad and we're actually gonna see the entire full stack rocket with Elon before its fourth flight test.大家好，我是 Tim Dodd，Everyday Astronaut。欢迎回到 Starbase。这是我们与 Elon Musk 参观之旅的第二部分，第一部分我们带你参观了 Starfactory，看了有什么新变化。两年里变化很大，而这一部分我们要带你去发射台，在第四次飞行测试之前，和 Elon 一起看完整的全栈火箭。
Tim DoddThen we're gonna go talk to Elon after it flies, see what went right, what went wrong, and what to expect on future launches. So part two, let's get started.然后我们要在它飞完之后和 Elon 聊聊，看看哪里顺利、哪里出了问题，以及未来发射可以期待什么。第二部分，开始吧。
Tim Dodd(Elon whistling the 1812 Overture)（Elon 口哨吹起《1812 序曲》）
Tim DoddHave you ever got a chance to see it from like the beach side? Sorry? Have you ever got a chance to see it from like the beach, from the dunes?你有没有机会从海滩那边看过它？什么？你有没有机会从海滩、从沙丘那边看过它？
Yeah.有啊。
Tim DoddIt's pretty insane. I love the heat shield side is the coolest part by far.真的太壮观了。我觉得隔热罩那一面绝对是最酷的。
Elon MuskYeah. It's a, I mean, it's a damn tall rocket.对，这确实是，我是说，这真是一枚他妈的高火箭。
Yeah.是啊。
So, and it's gonna get taller.而且还会更高。
Tim DoddIt's just, can we get even closer? Yeah. I don't, uh, even when you're underneath it, you don't quite get the sense of scale. Yeah. It's just insane. Geez, look at that. Hey, I gotta get a wrap around with you right there. That is so cool. I mean, the scale just doesn't make sense. There's nothing else out here to like compare it to, you know.就是，我们能再靠近一点吗？好啊。我不，哦，就算站在它下面，你也不太能感受到那种规模。是啊。就是太疯狂了。天哪，看看那个。嘿，我得和你在那儿绕一圈拍一张。太酷了。我是说，那个规模根本就不合理。这周围也没有其他东西可以拿来比较，你懂的。
Tim DoddIf this is a huge tower next to a ginormous rocket in the middle of nowhere with no buildings, no like, no anything. So it's, it's just so hard to put to scale. I mean, those grid fins the size of a car. Yeah. And they're so far up there that nothing makes sense.这里有一座巨塔，旁边是一枚超级巨大的火箭，在一片荒野中，没有建筑，什么都没有。所以真的很难感受到它的尺度。我是说，那些栅格翼每一片都有一辆车那么大。而且它们高高挂在那里，什么东西看起来都不合常理。
Elon MuskYeah. It's a gigantic rocket. I mean, it's 5,000 tons at liftoff, it's the largest flying object ever made of any kind.对，这是一枚巨型火箭。我是说，起飞时有 5,000 吨，是有史以来制造过的任何种类中最大的飞行物体。
And you're trying to catch it.而且你还要去接住它。
Elon MuskYeah. Catch it with Mechazilla arms. I was actually slightly inspired by Kong vs Godzilla, you know. Mechazilla.对，用 Mechazilla 的臂膀接住它。我其实是略微受到了《Kong vs Godzilla》的启发，你知道的，Mechazilla。
Yeah, yeah. That's the reason for this.对对，这就是这个的原因。
Elon MuskWell, there the reason. Like I said, there's many ways to solve this problem. Obviously you could do it with landing legs. The problem with landing legs is, you've got the weight of the landing legs and you've gotta protect them on entry, especially for the ship. That's tricky.嗯，这是有原因的。就像我说的，解决这个问题有很多方法。显然你可以用着陆腿来做。着陆腿的问题是，你得承受着陆腿的重量，而且还得在进入大气层时保护它们，特别是对飞船来说，这很棘手。
Elon MuskAnd then you've gotta get a giant rocket from where it landed back onto the pad onto the launch stand. So I was trying to think of what is the, in the limit, the most efficient, most rapidly reusable architecture would be — that the thing that lifts the rocket onto the pad is what catches it.然后你还得把一枚巨型火箭从它降落的地方搬回发射台，搬到发射架上。所以我就在想，在极限情况下，最高效、最快速可复用的架构应该是什么——那就是把火箭吊上发射台的东西，也就是接住它的那个东西。
Tim DoddWhat catches it. Yeah. So how, is there still plans, like how will the ship actually get caught? Are there similar nubs on the ship as there are —接住它的那个。对。那么，飞船实际上会怎么被接住？有没有类似的凸钉在飞船上，就像——
There aren't currently nubs, but there will be.目前还没有凸钉，但会有的。
Yeah. Okay. Like deployable, like catch it on the armpits you know?对。好。类似那种可展开的，像是抓住腋下那种？
Just like, you just grab it by the flaps.就直接抓住翼片。
Tim DoddOr do you, is there the nubs then some —还是说有凸钉然后再加什么——
Elon MuskThis is a matter of much debate, but again, there's like a lot of ways to solve this. It kind of depends on what range of landing velocity we're gonna deal with. Because if it comes in with a lot of momentum, you have to have much stronger catchers than if it doesn't.这是一个争论很多的问题，不过还是那句话，有很多种解决办法。这有点取决于我们要应对什么样的着陆速度范围。因为如果它带着很大的动量进来，你需要的接住装置就得比它动量小时强得多。
Right.对。
Elon MuskNow the downside, if you try to reserve propellant such that it is a very precise landing, you're burning propellant to achieve that precision. So that's also — which one is better?但缺点是，如果你想保留推进剂来实现非常精准的降落，你就得烧掉推进剂来获得那个精度。所以也是——哪个更好？
That's also mass.那也是质量。
Elon MuskYes. Yeah. So do you want static mass or dynamic mass in the form of propellant? There's some combination of the two is needed in order to have the ship get caught by the arms and not have the forward flaps sheared off when it comes down.对，是的。所以你想要的是静态质量还是以推进剂形式存在的动态质量？需要两者的某种组合，才能让飞船被臂膀接住，而不是在下降时把前翼片给剪断。
Tim DoddRight. Are the flaps there — talks to the flaps kinda of having a little bit of a redesign too? Like maybe moving a little bit? Yeah, yeah. Is that still — so the —对。那翼片——据说翼片也有一些重新设计？比如可能稍微移动一下位置？对对。那还在——所以——
Elon MuskThere's actually, if you understand what the ship's trying to achieve — it's actually bugged me for a long time. At least for the Low Earth Orbit missions, it's coming back with an empty cargo bay. So the ship naturally wants to come in engines first, 'cause that's the heavy part. The center of mass is low.实际上，如果你理解飞船要实现的目标——这个问题困扰了我很长时间。至少对于近地轨道任务来说，它回来的时候货舱是空的。所以飞船天然想要发动机朝前飞回来，因为那是重的部分。质心在下方。
Elon MuskSo now the rear flaps counter the center of mass, the center of pressure. So you're really balancing pressure and mass. It's basically the seesaw. Now forward flaps that are not fully stowed are actually hurting you, because if you have got a maximally stowed position of the forward flaps, that means you still have some frontal area that is pushing the rocket backwards and making it want to go engines first.所以后翼片要抵消质心与压力中心的差异。你实际上是在平衡压力和质量，基本上就是一个跷跷板。而没有完全收起来的前翼片实际上会拖后腿，因为如果前翼片处于最大收起位置，这意味着仍然有一些正面面积在把火箭向后推，让它更想发动机朝前。
Elon MuskSo whereas frontal area in the rear is helpful, frontal area in the front is counterproductive. So you really ideally want the flaps to be in the stowed position, invisible to the flow, so they're not trying to tip the rocket backwards.所以，后方的正面面积是有帮助的，而前方的正面面积则适得其反。所以理想情况下，你真的希望翼片处于收起状态，对气流来说是隐形的，这样它们就不会试图把火箭往后翻。
Tim DoddBut I guess it's not like you're trying to maximize braking necessarily. You're trying to achieve a certain glide ratio and things like —但我觉得你不是在试图最大化制动，而是要达到某种特定的滑翔比之类的——
Elon MuskThat too. You've gotta control it through hypersonic, supersonic, transonic and subsonic. And at least until you get to subsonic, the challenge is not having the engines go into the flow. Basically you're trying to maintain an angle of attack that's around 65, 70 degrees. So if this is the earth, it's doing roughly this angle.也是。你得在高超音速、超音速、跨音速和亚音速全程控制它。至少在到达亚音速之前，挑战在于不让发动机进入气流。基本上你要保持一个大约 65、70 度的攻角。就好像这边是地球，它大概是这个角度飞行的。
Yeah.对。
Elon MuskAnd so the rear flaps, the aft flaps are out as much as possible to try to keep the engines from scooting forward. So if the rear flaps deploy, that increases the drag. It pushes the ship this way. When the front flaps deploy, it actually pushes the ship back. So what the front flaps really are doing, they're really trim flaps. They're not trying to change the pitch angle.所以后翼片尽量展开，是为了防止发动机朝前冲。如果后翼片展开，阻力增加，会把飞船往这边推。当前翼片展开时，实际上是把飞船往另一边推。所以前翼片真正在做的，其实是配平翼。它们不是在试图改变俯仰角。
They're trying to maintain it almost.它们几乎是在维持它。
Elon MuskWell, you need to control the ship in your roll in addition to pitch. But the work of essentially controlling pitch is really the rear flaps, and they're trying to move the center of pressure such that the engines don't go into the flow. Like, so ship's going like this. Rear flaps deploy, it makes it want to tip forward, which is good. It counteracts the mass at the rear. The flaps at the front are really therefore trimming your roll.嗯，你需要除了俯仰之外还要控制飞船的滚转。但控制俯仰这件事基本上是后翼片在做，它们试图移动压力中心，使发动机不进入气流。就像飞船这样飞着，后翼片展开，让它想往前倾，这是好事，抵消了后部的质量。前翼片因此主要是在做滚转配平。
Primarily. And they all interact with each other too, which is —主要是这个。而且它们之间也会互相影响，这就是——
Elon MuskA hard part. Yeah, exactly. That's why it's like ish — technically the front flaps also do some pitch action. But for setting your fundamental pitch angle, it's the rear flaps. And you want your front flaps, when they're back, to be invisible to the flow, so that your rear flaps don't have to do extra work.难点所在。对，确实。所以这有点——从技术上讲，前翼片也会有一些俯仰作用。但要设定你的基本俯仰角，靠的是后翼片。而你希望前翼片收起来的时候对气流是隐形的，这样后翼片就不必做额外的功。
Tim DoddRight. That makes sense. So, but you also need some margin though, too. So having those be able to dip out and do a few things to maintain, you've —对，这说得通。但你也需要一些余量对吧。所以让它们能稍微展开做一些调整，你得——
Elon MuskGotta control your roll. So you really kind of need like three control surfaces, and we have four, so slightly more than you need. And in the high heating regime, which is where this really matters, the air is very stable. You don't have wind really. The air is homogenous.要控制滚转。所以你基本上需要大概三个控制面，我们有四个，稍微多一点。在高加热段，也就是这最关键的时候，空气非常稳定。基本上没有风。空气是均匀的。
Elon MuskSo if the ship is operating properly, it'll look like it's barely doing anything. The flaps are barely moving. And it's just maintaining this angle.所以如果飞船运行正常，看起来就像几乎什么都没做。翼片几乎纹丝不动，只是保持这个角度。
Tim DoddYeah, 'cause it's not having to react to all these turbulences and all this stuff.对，因为它不需要应对所有这些湍流和乱七八糟的东西。
Tim DoddThere's no disturbances. Until it gets into the lower atmosphere, obviously.没有扰动。直到它进入低层大气，显然。
Tim DoddYeah. And then the whole thing is there, almost like — you know, when you're going from hypersonic and supersonic, is there, like, obviously the control scheme's almost changed a little bit to a certain degree.对。然后整个情况在那里，几乎像——你知道，从高超音速到超音速，控制方案是不是也在某种程度上有所改变。
Sure. Oh, changed a lot.当然了。哦，变了很多。
Tim DoddAnd those, it changes a lot. Subsonic. Big time. So that's probably pretty crazy, the model that — and like get some sense of where that's going now, but at the end of the day, you're still gonna have to see how it happens when it actually gets to that regime.而且变化很大。亚音速阶段更是大变样。所以那个模型可能很复杂，而且现在可以有一些预感，但归根结底，你还是得等到真正到那个飞行段时才能看到实际情况。
Elon MuskYeah. Once you get to subsonic, the ship is falling like a skydiver.对，一旦到了亚音速阶段，飞船就像一个跳伞员一样自由落体了。
Yes. Like we've seen.对，就像我们已经见过的那样。
Elon MuskSo the flaps are kinda like arms and legs of a skydiver. So it's counterintuitive. It's not at all how an airplane works. Airplanes don't fall.所以翼片有点像跳伞员的手臂和腿。这很反直觉，完全不是飞机的工作方式。飞机不会自由落体。
Tim DoddIt's like 90 degrees to what an airplane would do, basically.基本上和飞机做的事旋转了 90 度。
Elon MuskYeah. Yes. 90 degrees to what an airplane would do. It's really analogous to a giant skydiver.对，和飞机做的事旋转了 90 度。真的就像一个巨型跳伞员。
I mean exactly. 'Cause that's exactly how a skydiver —就是。因为跳伞员就是这样——
Pretty damn close.非常接近了。
Tim DoddYeah. Maintains their orientation. That is just the craziest thing. When I — I gotta ask. So, you know, you have the ability now as SpaceX, where you're at, to be able to do iterative design like this. If you could have done that on Falcon 9, had a total blank slate and literally just minimum viable product, we're gonna throw that thing out — would you have done that on Falcon 9?对，保持方向。这真是最疯狂的事。当我——我得问一下。你知道，SpaceX 现在有能力做这种迭代设计。如果当年你能对 Falcon 9 这样做，完全白纸一张，就是最简可行产品，扔出去试——你会对 Falcon 9 那样做吗？
Tim DoddBecause Falcon 9, people forget, you know, they look at this and they go, oh, they don't even know what they're doing. Well, you guys know how to build a rocket and launch it for the first time. Falcon 9, Falcon Heavy. I mean, you've already done that. In hindsight —因为 Falcon 9，人们忘了，你知道，他们看到这个说，哦，他们根本不知道自己在做什么。但你们知道怎么造火箭、怎么第一次发射。Falcon 9，Falcon Heavy。我是说，你们已经做到了。回头看——
Elon MuskWell, who's saying we don't know what we're doing, and what have they done?说我们不知道自己在做什么的人，他们自己又做了什么？
Oh, exactly.哦，确实。
It's easy to be an armchair rocket engineer.当个坐在扶手椅上的火箭工程师很容易。
Tim DoddYeah, exactly. But they don't understand the prototyping, the testing phase. So if you could have done something like this with Falcon 9 in the early days, would you have done that if you could have?对，完全正确。但他们不理解原型设计和测试阶段。所以如果你当年能像现在这样对 Falcon 9 做原型迭代，你会那么做吗？
Elon MuskWe wouldn't be able to make Starship without the benefit of Falcon 9. So it's sort of like saying if you had a time machine or something — when you get into like time machine logic loops. So I mean, this is really — there's nothing in common. We learned a lot from Falcon 9, but there's nothing in common, there's no design element that Starship has in common with Falcon 9. Nothing. I mean, I take it back. You've got grid fins in both cases, right?没有 Falcon 9 的经验，我们做不出 Starship。所以说这个有点像说你有了时间机器——这就陷入了时间机器的逻辑死循环。我是说，这两者真的——没有任何共同点。我们从 Falcon 9 学到了很多，但 Starship 和 Falcon 9 没有任何共同的设计元素，一点都没有。不过，我收回刚才的话，两者都有栅格翼，对吧？
Tim DoddYeah. You know, there may be some common-ish avionics or something.对，也许有一些共通的航电系统之类的。
Nope. All new avionics.没有，全新的航电系统。
Tim DoddYeah. Geez, that's insane to think about.天哪，这个想想就疯狂。
Elon MuskWhat, all new avionics, all new software, all new —什么，全新的航电系统，全新的软件，全新的——
Tim DoddAnd tower two is starting to head this way from Florida. It's looking like, and that's gonna go over that way. Is that right?还有第二座塔正从佛罗里达那边运过来了。看起来是要去那边放。是这样吗？
Elon MuskYeah. And tower two will be, have a number of upgrades. It'll be taller to allow for the next generation of Starship. So we're gonna add a few sections to that. And then the redesigned arms will be shorter. So if you look at those arms up there, those arms have very high moment of inertia, they're very long.对，第二座塔会有很多升级。它会更高，以适应下一代 Starship。所以我们要给它加几段。然后重新设计的臂膀会更短。你看那上面的臂膀，那些臂膀的转动惯量非常高，非常长。
Elon MuskSo when you have long arms, it's hard to move them fast. And 'cause you have to move them and brake. And so it's just a lot of momentum.臂膀越长，就越难快速移动。因为你得移动它、再刹住它，动量就是很大。
And a lot of dampening.还有很大的阻尼。
Elon MuskYeah. So the new arms will be able to move much faster and they'll be a fair bit shorter than those arms.对，所以新臂膀能移动得快得多，而且会比现在这些短相当多。
Tim DoddBasically right at the catch point. Like there's pretty close, not too much beyond that.基本上就到接住点附近，没有太多超出那个点的部分。
Elon MuskYeah. So they'll be a fair bit shorter. Maybe be like a couple meters beyond the catch point.对，会短相当多，可能比接住点多出几米左右。
Tim DoddWell, is there any kind of redesign to the OLM and the booster bidet and all the flame trench and stuff like that?OLM 和助推器冲洗系统还有火焰沟这些有什么重新设计吗？
Elon MuskYeah, it's a total redesign — which I don't know if we should do a total redesign, but the guys really wanna do it. So it's like, okay.对，是全面重新设计——我也不知道该不该全面重设，但工程师们真的很想这么做。所以就像，好吧。
Like it'll have like more of a flame trench this time.比如这次会有一个真正的火焰沟。
Tim DoddYeah. Yeah. This has turned out better than I expected though, I have to say. On flight two when it took off, it was like, hey look, it actually worked.对，对。我得说这次比我预期的效果要好。第二次飞行起飞时，我心想，嘿，还真成了。
Tim DoddIt's cool. It didn't blow up. So, but the ring and stuff, is anything changing? Is it almost like a whole everything new? Or is it —很酷，没爆炸。那么，隔离环之类的，有什么在改变吗？几乎是全部换新了吗？还是说——
Pretty much.差不多。
Tim DoddWow. Yeah, this's just crazy.哇，是啊，真疯狂。
Elon MuskThe hold-down arms also change. Well, it's really the launch arms, 'cause the current ones have some potential to bind and grab the rocket, which would be real bad. So we have a new design for the launch arms that take the load of the rocket and then retract so that they're not gonna bind and potentially cause the whole thing to explode.固定臂也在改变。其实是发射臂，因为现有的发射臂有可能会卡住、夹住火箭，那可就真糟了。所以我们有一个新设计的发射臂，它先承担火箭的载荷，然后缩回去，这样就不会卡住并可能导致整个东西爆炸。
Tim DoddThat'd be bad. Especially at this stage. It's getting a lot more legitimate and, you know —那可不好，特别是在这个阶段，一切都在变得越来越成熟，你知道的——
Elon MuskWe're trying to protect against the explosions. I've got basically bunker, like concrete walls. A lot of steel protecting the launch tower. So, gosh, that wall is designed to protect the propellant tanks against a full explosion of the rocket.我们在努力防范爆炸。我基本上建了像碉堡一样的混凝土墙，还有很多钢铁保护发射塔。所以，天啊，那堵墙是为了保护推进剂储罐免受火箭完全爆炸的冲击。
Tim DoddSo tower two, that's on its way — they're literally loading up barges and you have sections out at the factory and everything. So tower two is like already — I mean, it's crazy to think how quickly it's all coming, and you're gonna be building that here all year probably. And wouldn't be surprised if that thing ends up being used already by next year. Can't even keep up with this. That is ridiculous.所以第二座塔正在来的路上——他们真的在装驳船，工厂那边你们也有各个分段了。所以第二座塔已经——我是说，想想这一切推进得多快真的很疯狂，你们今年大概都要在这里建造。而且也不奇怪，那东西明年就能用了。这进度根本追不上，太荒唐了。
Tim DoddWow. Tomorrow after this thing launches, would you want to do a quick little, like, rundown on how you feel about it?哇，明天这东西发射之后，你愿不愿意做个简短的，你知道，聊聊感受？
It depends on how it went.要看飞得怎么样。
Tim DoddLet's say it makes it through reentry, both of 'em.假设两个都能撑过再入大气层。
Sure.行啊。
Tim DoddOkay. Well we better shake on that then. Huh? Now that'll be awesome. I mean, tomorrow's gonna be phenomenal, I feel. How are you feeling about it now that you've had time to see it all and, you know, looking at the data?好，那我们得握手为证。这将会很精彩。我是说，明天一定会非常精彩，我感觉。现在你有时间把这一切都看了、也看了数据，你的感觉怎么样？
Elon MuskI think the odds are on our side, but there's still some chance that the rocket blows up on liftoff. It's not zero. I mean, this is the best launch site and the best rocket we've ever made on Starship. So it has the highest odds of success.我觉得胜算在我们这边，但火箭在起飞时还是有一定概率会爆炸，不是零。我是说，这是我们在 Starship 上建过的最好的发射场和最好的火箭，所以成功概率是最高的。
Tim DoddAnd you can even tell the amount of attention to detail and things on the ship and the tiles and everything. It's —从飞船和隔热瓦等各种细节上都能看出那种对细节的关注，真的——
It's much more finesse.精细多了。
Yes. Yeah. It doesn't have like clonky bits.是的，对，不再有那种粗糙的地方了。
Tim DoddYeah, exactly. Oh man, it's gonna be exciting. Can't wait for it. It's gonna be — I hope people will pay attention to this, 'cause it's history in the making, you know? We're watching —对，完全正确。哦天，真是激动人心。等不及了。这将会——我希望人们能关注这个，因为这是历史的创造，你知道吗？我们正在见证——
Elon MuskAnd the cylinders are now pretty straight. You know, early versions had — were like kind of a Michelin man situation.还有筒体现在也相当笔直了。你知道，早期版本——有点像米其林人的感觉。
Tim DoddNo one, especially like Mk1 like you were talking about earlier. Like Mk1 like a —没人，特别是像你刚才提到的 Mk1，Mk1 就像一个——
Mk1 was, let's just say lighting was important.Mk1 嘛，就这么说吧，打光很重要。
That is awesome.那太棒了。
Lighting was important.打光很重要。
Oh man.哦天。
You need like romantic lighting for Mk1.Mk1 需要那种浪漫的灯光。
Tim DoddWell I really, really appreciate you taking time. You know, T minus — oh god, we're within like 12 hours now, so T minus 12 hours and hopefully we'll see this thing lift off tomorrow again.我真的非常非常感谢你抽出时间。你知道，发射前——哦天，我们现在已经在 T 减 12 小时以内了，希望明天能看到这东西再次升空。
Yeah, it's wild. Alright.对，太疯狂了。好的。
Cool. It's wild. Thank you so much Elon.太棒了。真的太疯狂了。Elon，非常感谢你。
Thank you.谢谢。
Tim DoddThe next morning that Starship stack with Booster 11 and Ship 29 did indeed launch for Starship's fourth full stack flight. Our Everyday Astronaut / Cosmic Perspective crew managed to get some amazing slow-mo shots, but only for the first few seconds due to cloud cover. We can't wait for the next launch, so we hopefully get some incredible slow-mo shots of the booster returning and hopefully a catch attempt as well. That will be crazy. And of course we'll be covering it live in 4K when it happens.第二天早上，搭载 Booster 11 和 Ship 29 的 Starship 组合体确实发射了，这是 Starship 的第四次全栈飞行。我们 Everyday Astronaut / Cosmic Perspective 团队拍到了一些精彩的慢动作镜头，但由于云层遮挡，只录到了最初几秒。我们迫不及待想看下一次发射，希望能拍到助推器返回的精彩慢动作，也希望能看到捕获尝试，那将会非常疯狂。当然我们届时也会进行 4K 直播。
Tim DoddBut the good news is this test was the biggest success of the program yet, with both the booster and the Starship upper stage reentering and softly splashing down, which was great news for us because Elon kept his promise and followed up after this historic test. So just a few hours after the launch, I met back up with Elon to discuss what went right, what went wrong, and what to expect in the next launch.好消息是这次测试是迄今为止项目最大的成功，助推器和 Starship 上面级都完成了再入并软着水，这对我们来说是个好消息，因为 Elon 信守承诺，在这次历史性测试后回来接受了采访。所以就在发射几小时后，我再次见到 Elon，聊了聊哪里顺利、哪里出了问题，以及下一次发射可以期待什么。
Tim DoddBut before we hear from him, I wanted to point out touring Starbase has highlighted the challenges of accessing direct reliable information about space flight and the aerospace industry without being overly sensationalized. And today's sponsor embodies these principles perfectly. Ground News is an app and website that gathers news articles from more than 50,000 sources globally and puts them in one place, so you can compare how different outlets cover the same story.但在听他讲之前，我想指出，参观 Starbase 让我深刻体会到，在不过度渲染的情况下获取关于航天飞行和航空航天行业的直接可靠信息有多么困难。而今天的赞助商完美体现了这些原则。Ground News 是一款应用和网站，汇聚了全球超过 50,000 个来源的新闻文章，放在一个地方，让你能对比不同媒体如何报道同一件事。
Tim DoddFun fact, it was founded by former NASA engineer Harleen Kaur, who worked on the James Webb Space Telescope and New Horizons. Let's take a look at how that Starship launch was covered in the media. There were over 160 articles and we can see visually where the biases lean on the bias distribution chart, with 26% leaning left, 62% in the center and 12% on the right.有趣的是，它由前 NASA 工程师 Harleen Kaur 创立，她曾参与 James Webb Space Telescope 和 New Horizons 项目。我们来看看 Starship 发射在媒体上是怎么被报道的。共有超过 160 篇文章，从偏见分布图上可以直观看到倾向，26% 偏左，62% 居中，12% 偏右。
Tim DoddThere's also the factuality chart and the ownership chart, which shows about 50% of these articles were written by media conglomerates. These are all things that can influence bias and framing. Then we can scroll down and see every article about Flight four and compare the headlines. I think it's fun to see what words are used in each headline — which ones mention exploding or test or Elon Musk.还有真实性图表和所有权图表，显示这些文章中约 50% 由媒体集团撰写。这些都是可能影响偏见和框架方式的因素。然后我们可以向下滚动，看到所有关于第四次飞行的文章，对比各家标题。我觉得看看每个标题用了什么词很有意思——哪些提到了爆炸、哪些提到了测试、哪些提到了 Elon Musk。
Tim DoddI personally enjoy scrolling through my blind spot feed, which helps me stay informed and balanced on topics and gives me perspectives that I might have previously missed. Ground News has been important to me and helps me enhance my knowledge and critical thinking about space science and world issues. Subscribe through my link at ground.news/everydayastronaut for 40% off the Ground News unlimited access vantage plan this month.我个人喜欢刷我的「盲点」信息流，它帮助我在各类话题上保持知情和平衡，给我提供我可能之前忽视的视角。Ground News 对我来说很重要，帮助我提升了对太空科学和世界议题的认知和批判性思维。通过我的链接 ground.news/everydayastronaut 订阅，本月可享 Ground News 无限访问 Vantage 计划 40% 折扣。
Tim DoddThat's the plan that I personally use and I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to stay well-informed and gain a deeper understanding of the news. There's also a link in the description too. Okay, now let's hear from Elon about how he thinks the launch went.这是我个人在用的套餐，我强烈推荐给所有想保持充分知情、深入理解新闻的人。描述里也有链接。好了，现在我们来听听 Elon 对这次发射的看法。
That was — come on. I mean, hey, go sick. That was amazing.那真是——来吧，我是说，嘿，太棒了。那真是太惊人了。
You saw it, you saw the whole thing? I did predict that would happen. Although there's the question of why didn't we do more about it? Like, we did do a lot.你看到了，看了全程？我确实预测到会发生这个。虽然有个问题是，为什么我们之前没多做点准备？不过我们确实也做了很多。
Tim DoddOh my gosh. That was insane.哦天哪，那真是太疯狂了。
Yeah. Yeah.对，对。
Tim DoddDo you feel pretty satisfied with the results of —你对结果感到满意吗？
Elon MuskYeah, it's awesome. This is a really, I'd say, best outcome day. Really, really.是啊，太棒了。我说，这真的是，最好的结果日。真的，真的是。
Tim DoddIt is. I mean, as you were watching the grid fin start to burn through — or not the grid fins, the flaps — you had to have thought one of those was just gonna rip off, right?确实。我是说，当你看到栅格翼开始烧穿——不是栅格翼，是翼片——你肯定以为其中一个要直接脱落了，对吧？
Elon MuskYeah, I mean, the heating — you could see the heating from the internal cameras. You don't need infrared cameras. You can actually just see it glow. So the thing about steel is, it's gonna glow for a long time before it fails. I think one of the biggest lessons is the incredible resilience of a high temp stainless steel alloy. 'Cause it hung in there.是啊，我是说，加热——从内部摄像头就能看到热量。根本不需要红外摄像头，你用眼睛就能直接看到它发光。钢的特点就是，它会发光很长时间才会失效。我觉得最大的教训之一是高温不锈钢合金令人难以置信的韧性，因为它撑下来了。
Elon MuskAnd so, you know, you always wanna be careful about jumping to conclusions. You know what, like the — we need to jump to conclusions mat from "Office Space". Right? Don't jump to conclusions. So we have to be a little hesitant about reaching conclusions before we fully analyze the data, 'cause sometimes your first guess is wrong.所以，你知道，凡事都要小心别急着下结论。就像——我们需要那个来自《Office Space》的「不要急着下结论」垫子，对吧？所以在我们完全分析完数据之前，得稍微克制一下急于下结论的冲动，因为有时候你的第一反应是错的。
Elon MuskBut we obviously need to make the flap hinge area far more robust. So we'll really go crazy hardcore on that. Hopefully I don't eat my words, but that will not be the reason — if the next flight doesn't make it back fully intact, that will not be the reason. Flap hinge will not be the reason. We're gonna just spend a bunch of mass.但我们显然需要让翼片铰链区域坚固得多。所以我们会在这上面猛下功夫。希望我不会打脸，但如果下一次飞行没能完好无损地回来，那不会是翼片铰链的问题。翼片铰链不会是原因。我们会直接堆质量解决它。
Just make it super robust, overdo it for now.直接让它超级坚固，暂时过度设计。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean there's just things you can do, you know, to increase the tile precision, decrease the gap, improve the gap filler, thicken the tiles. If any gap is not perfect, then you had to crack the tile, pull it off, do another one. It's kind of a pain in the ass.对。我是说，有很多事情可以做，比如提高隔热瓦的精度、缩小缝隙、改进填缝材料、加厚隔热瓦。如果任何缝隙不够完美，就得把瓦敲掉重铺，挺烦的。
Elon MuskSo it's not like we thought — if we thought there was something obvious that could be done about the flap hinge area, we would've done it. But like I said, we'll just go to town, you know — probably thicker tiles, thinner gaps, better gap filler, maybe even tightening the tolerances. There's a whole bunch of things that we can and will do for the next flight.所以不是说我们之前觉得有什么显而易见的事情可以针对翼片铰链区域来做，如果有的话我们早就做了。但就像我说的，我们会在下次飞行中大干一场——可能是更厚的隔热瓦、更窄的缝隙、更好的填缝材料，甚至收紧公差。有一整套我们可以做的事情。
Elon MuskI'd mentioned yesterday that we have an improved design of Starship coming down the pipe. Not immediately, but it's something that I've actually been kinda harping on — just saying like, guys we need to do this — for a while, which is to move the forward flaps leeward so that they're not at the kind of 180 degrees. They're moved kind of leeward.我昨天提到，我们有一个改进版 Starship 正在研发中，不是马上，但这是我其实一直在催的一件事——一直在跟大家说，我们得这么做——就是把前翼片移到背风面，让它们不再在那个大约 180 度的位置，而是移到背风侧。
Elon MuskSo it'll look a little bit asymmetric with the rear flaps. The rear flaps are where they should be, at 180 degrees.这样它看起来和后翼片会有点不对称。后翼片还是在它们应该在的位置，也就是 180 度。
So those aren't improvements you'll see already on like ship 30? 'Cause ship 30 —那这些改进在 Ship 30 上就不会看到了？因为 Ship 30——
Elon MuskNo, it's a total redesign of the whole front section. 'Cause you've gotta redesign the mount points. The reason I — it's not like the team disagreed with me about this. They did agree, but they were like, is that really the priority? Because you've gotta redesign all of the support structure, you know, the actuator mounts. It's a huge redesign of the front end.不，这是整个前段的全面重新设计。因为你得重新设计安装点。我的意思是——不是团队不同意我的看法，他们确实同意，但他们当时的问题是，这真的是优先事项吗？因为你得重新设计所有支撑结构，也就是执行器安装座，这是对前端的大规模重新设计。
Elon MuskAnd there'll be a number of other sort of improvements we do, you know, to the header tanks and the whole front section. And it's kind of like front section version two, which would be much better. So more reliable, more payload, and also easier to manufacture. Which is a big deal.我们还会做一些其他改进，比如压头储罐和整个前段。这有点像是前段第二版，会好很多，更可靠、更大载荷，而且也更容易制造，这是很大的一件事。
Tim DoddDo you know, did the aft flaps and the forward — like, did all of 'em kind of have similar burn through, do you know?你知道，后翼片和前翼片——它们都有类似程度的烧穿吗？
Elon MuskNo, the right forward flap was the one that had the — you know, 'cause there's these tolerance variations. There's a little bit of just stochastic, you know, luck. You know, it's like there's a bit of Russian roulette going on here. Which was the unlucky tile.没有，是右前翼片出了问题——你知道，这里面有公差偏差，有一点随机性，有点像在拼运气，哪一块隔热瓦是那个倒霉蛋。
Elon MuskBut it looks like there was probably — I'm just guessing here, it's speculative — that we had probably the gaps on the tiles were a little wider on the right side than the left side. 'Cause it was really the right front flap that by far had the biggest issues.但看起来可能是——我只是猜测，这是推断——右侧隔热瓦的缝隙可能比左侧要宽一点。因为有大问题的主要就是右前翼片，而且远远超过其他位置。
Elon MuskAnd we can see this in terms of, when the vehicle is trying to control itself, how much deployment does each flap have? So the other three flaps had more or less normal deployment, but the broken flap had to really go all out and stick its like skeleton hand really far out to have an effect.从飞船自主控制的数据上也能看出来，每块翼片展开了多少。其他三块翼片的展开量大致正常，但那块损坏的翼片不得不全力出击，像伸出骷髅手一样伸出去老远才能起到作用。
Tim DoddIt reminded me of like Short Circuit, like Johnny Five in part two. I don't remember if you remember that movie Short Circuit, Johnny Five was alive.这让我想到《Short Circuit》，就像第二部里的 Johnny Five。不知道你有没有看过那部电影《Short Circuit》，Johnny Five is alive。
That's a long time ago.那是很久以前的事了。
Tim DoddA long eighties movie. Yeah. And he gets like all beaten up and he's like just this like skeleton, and he's like still fighting along. And it just reminded me, like seeing this like claw of a flap, I couldn't believe how little it was needing to move though. And was still —一部老八十年代电影，对。他被打得七零八落，就剩个骨架，还在继续战斗。看到那个翼片的爪子就想到这个，我没法相信它需要动的幅度那么小，却依然——
Oh, it was moving a lot at the end.哦，最后阶段动了很多的。
Was it?是吗？
Elon MuskOh yeah, yeah. It was going to like full deployment, especially subsonic. But it performed admirably for it. It was sort of an insane level of destruction.哦是的，是的。它当时已经达到完全展开状态了，尤其是亚音速阶段。但考虑到那个惊人的破坏程度，它的表现已经是可圈可点了。
Tim DoddI can't believe it still could move when all of it looked like it — you know, like you'd think the actual —我没法相信它还能动，因为看起来整个——你知道，你以为实际上——
Elon MuskMe neither. I'm like, holy shit, is that thing still moving? But the actuator was still working — the link actuator, you know, the actuator linkages did not burn away. The hinges were still working. It's like, damn, okay, that's insane.我也没想到。我当时的反应是，妈的，那东西还在动？但执行器还在工作——连杆执行器，执行器连杆没有烧断。铰链还在工作。就想，天哪，好吧，这也太疯狂了。
Elon MuskSo I couldn't believe that.我真的没想到会这样。
Elon MuskYeah. Yeah. Totally. So now, it was able to maintain stability subsonically, but because of the ragged flap, it was not able to steer itself to the exact right position. So it was about six kilometers off positionally. But it did manage to maintain stability all the way to the ground.对，完全是。所以，在亚音速阶段它还能保持稳定，但由于翼片的残破，它无法精准地引导自己到正确位置。所以位置上偏了大约 6 公里。但它确实做到了全程保持稳定直到落地。
Tim DoddDoes this make you — I mean we talked a lot about ship, but booster obviously did phenomenally well too. Was that on target?这让你——我是说，我们聊了很多飞船，但助推器显然也表现得非常出色。它是按目标来的吗？
Elon MuskYeah, the booster was almost perfect. I mean, so obviously there was one engine that didn't light — or, it didn't explode, but that we thought we should not turn on. It had aborted during the start sequence out of concern. But 32 engines is fine. It's resilient to multiple engines being lost and still completing its mission.对，助推器几乎完美。我是说，显然有一台发动机没有点火——或者说，它没有爆炸，但我们认为不该打开它，它在启动序列中因为有顾虑而中止了。但 32 台发动机是没问题的，丢失多台发动机仍然能完成任务，有很强的容错性。
Tim DoddYeah. Like each engine lost is only 3% of thrust. So it's pretty minuscule compared to another vehicle that could be 50% or a hundred percent even. But on landing burn, it seemed to lose another engine as it was lighting it for landing burn, but it still looked like it did a pretty precise touchdown it looks like.对，每丢失一台发动机只是丢失 3% 的推力，和其他火箭相比可能是 50% 甚至 100% 推力损失，这简直是微乎其微。但在着陆点火时，看起来在点火过程中又失去了一台发动机，但它看起来还是做到了相当精准的落点。
Elon MuskYeah, yeah. No, it landed in the water, intact. On the water. It was literally bobbing in the water and then obviously it tips over, and when it tips over, it smacks down pretty hard 'cause it's like falling from 70 meters, like over 200 feet.对，对。不，它是完整地落在水里的，落在水面上。它真的在水里漂着，然后显然它倒下去了，倒下去时撞得很猛，因为它是从 70 米高度、也就是 200 多英尺的高度倒下来的。
Tim DoddYeah. So I know you mentioned on X that you were planning to actually try the — do you feel like you might wanna try doing the booster catch next?对。你在 X 上提到你打算——你觉得下一步想尝试做助推器捕获吗？
Elon MuskYeah, we'll talk it over with the team, see if there's any lingering concerns. But the point at which we can do an accurate boost back and we can execute the landing burn, which we've shown — then I think we should try to have the tower catch it.对，我们会和团队讨论一下，看看有没有什么遗留的顾虑。但是，只要我们能精准地完成返回点火、并且能执行着陆点火——我们已经证明了这一点——那我认为我们就应该尝试让塔架来接住它。
Tim DoddWow. And you don't feel like you need to have tower two ready before you do that?哇，你觉得在做这件事之前不需要先把第二座塔建好吗？
Elon MuskNo, not necessarily, because we do have replacement parts for the arms, and they're actually a better set of arms we could put on there. Those are kind of old design. I mentioned that those arms are actually too long, so the moments of inertia are too high. So you want actually shorter arms that can move faster.不一定，因为我们确实有臂膀的备用零件，而且那批其实是更好的臂膀，我们可以装上去。现有这些算是旧设计，我提到过这些臂膀其实太长了，转动惯量太高。所以你其实想要更短的臂膀，能更快地移动。
Elon MuskSo my inclination — you know, but the way these things work at SpaceX is, it's rare for me to sort of drop an imperial decree. Once in a while I will, but it's pretty rare. Usually it's like, we'll talk it over with the team, see what the general consensus is, and move in that direction.所以我的倾向是——不过在 SpaceX，事情的运作方式是，我很少直接颁布「帝王诏书」，偶尔会，但很少。通常是，我们和团队讨论，看看大家的整体共识是什么，然后往那个方向走。
Tim DoddYeah. That's gonna be wild. So, hopefully next, are we gonna kind of see more or less a repeat, you think again, of this mission profile — maybe bring the booster back, maybe do a — would you maybe do a raptor relight this time to kind of prove out orbital capabilities in coast phase?对，那将会相当精彩。那么希望下一次，你觉得我们会看到和这次差不多的任务剖面吗——也许把助推器带回来，也许做一次——这次会不会尝试 Raptor 重启，来验证轨道巡航能力？
Elon MuskYeah, that's a good question. We haven't decided. Are we going to do — like clearly Raptor relight does work. We had the three — you had three relight —对，这是个好问题。我们还没决定。我们是否要——Raptor 重启确实是可以的。我们有三台——有三次重启——
Relight.重启。
Elon MuskYeah, the three steering engines, which would be the ones that would relight, relit even after all that drama, coming through crazy heating. And of the two tiles that we put in the rear where we took the tiles off, we'd actually put some backup ablative there. One was two layers of ablative, one was one layer of ablative.对，三台转向发动机，也就是会重启的那几台，在经历了所有那些戏剧性事件、穿越疯狂的高温之后，还是重启了。而在我们取下隔热瓦、在后部安装了备用烧蚀材料的两个位置里——一个用了两层烧蚀材料，一个用了一层烧蚀材料。
Elon MuskThe two layers of ablative did not burn through; the one layer of ablative did, but I'm not sure if it actually burned through the steel too. But it did erode the single layer of ablative. But it just says that if you have two layers of our ablative, it does not actually burn through. So that could be your, before missing tile, a backup —两层烧蚀材料的没有烧穿；一层烧蚀材料的烧穿了，但我不确定是否真的连钢板也烧穿了。不过它确实侵蚀了那层单层烧蚀材料。但这说明，如果你有两层我们的烧蚀材料，它实际上是烧不穿的。所以这可以作为隔热瓦缺失时的备用手段——
Tim DoddLike you're kind of talking about that. So, worst case scenario next time, which we'll probably, knowing you guys, be in a couple months already.就像你之前说的那样。所以，最坏的情况下下次发射时——而且按你们的节奏，可能几个月后就来了。
Elon MuskYeah. We're depending on how many — on what changes we make. I think from a SpaceX standpoint, I think we're ready within 30 days. If we need to make a bunch of changes, I'd say from a SpaceX standpoint, not counting regulatory, we're ready probably in less than 30 days. If there are bigger changes, I'd say we're ready no later than 60 days, but probably close to the 30.对，这取决于我们要做多少改变。从 SpaceX 自身的角度来看，我认为我们在 30 天内就能准备好。如果我们需要做一堆改动，从 SpaceX 角度，不考虑监管，我们在不到 30 天内就能准备好。如果改动更大，我说我们最晚 60 天能准备好，但可能接近 30 天。
Tim DoddAnd that's where people are gonna be shocked that you're seeing these vehicles just continue to increase cadence. I mean, this is the third flight in a row where you've lifted off the most complicated vehicle ever made right at the top of the window. You know, not scrubbing for days and days trying to figure out how to launch. Just like the countdown was so smooth. Hit T zero, off you we go.这就是让人震惊的地方，你们这些飞行器的发射频率在不断提升。我是说，这已经是连续第三次，你们把有史以来最复杂的飞行器在发射窗口一开始就送上天。你们没有为了弄清楚怎么发射而推迟好几天，倒计时就那么流畅，到 T 零，出发了。
Elon MuskWe did have a ground valve, a propellant tank valve on the ground that needed to be tweaked. That's what pushed it a little bit. But the vehicle itself had no issues.我们确实遇到了一个地面阀，一个地面上的推进剂储罐阀需要调整，这才稍微推迟了一点点。但飞行器本身没有任何问题。
Tim DoddThat's still incredible. I mean on like the fourth flight ever of the largest, most powerful rocket ever built. I mean that's insane and it's just gonna keep going. So yeah, we're really excited. I know you guys have a lot to keep going here, so I really appreciate that you did follow up with us. This is —这依然令人难以置信。我是说，这是有史以来最大、最强大的火箭第四次飞行。这太疯狂了，而且还会一直持续下去。是的，我们真的很激动。我知道你们还有很多工作要做，所以我非常感谢你信守承诺来跟我们聊了这些，这是——
Awesome.太棒了。
Absolutely awesome. Absolutely.绝对太棒了，绝对是。
Yeah. Yeah. That's huge, right? Occupy Mars, man.对，对。这意义重大，对吧？占领火星，兄弟。
Tim DoddYeah. You're making progress. Congratulations again. Thank you so much for your time and can't wait for the next one.对，你们在推进。再次恭喜，非常感谢你的时间，期待下一次。
Alright, cool.好，太棒了。
Tim DoddAwesome. Thanks Elon. Thanks again so much. Elon and everyone here at SpaceX who made this tour possible — huge thank you. This is just incredible. We're so excited for what's going on. We're gonna be out here for the next flight. You better believe it. So stay tuned. There's a lot more excitement to come.太棒了，Elon，再次非常感谢。Elon 和 SpaceX 所有让这次参观成为可能的人——真心非常感谢。这真的太不可思议了。我们对正在发生的一切感到无比兴奋。下一次飞行我们一定在场，千真万确。敬请关注，还有很多精彩等着我们。
Tim DoddAnd I also owe a huge thank you to our Patreon supporters. If you wanna help support the work we do here on Everyday Astronaut, head on over to patreon.com/everydayastronaut. And another quick shout out to our sponsor Ground News. Check them out at ground.news/everydayastronaut for 40% off the Ground News unlimited access vantage plan this month.我也要向我们的 Patreon 支持者致以深深的谢意。如果你想支持我们在 Everyday Astronaut 所做的工作，请前往 patreon.com/everydayastronaut。还要再次感谢我们的赞助商 Ground News，访问 ground.news/everydayastronaut，本月可享 Ground News 无限访问 Vantage 计划 40% 折扣。
Tim DoddAnd while you're online, be sure and check out our incredible merch store for shirts like this. Our orbital shirt, we've got our Heat Shield tile collection, Falcon 9 Model Rockets, lots of other incredible stuff over at everydayastronaut.com/shop. Thanks everybody. That's gonna do it for me. I'm Tim Dodd, the everyday astronaut, bringing space down to earth for everyday people.在线的时候，也别忘了去看看我们精彩的周边商店，像这件衬衫。我们有轨道衬衫，有 Heat Shield 隔热瓦系列，Falcon 9 模型火箭，还有很多其他精彩周边，都在 everydayastronaut.com/shop。感谢大家。就到这里了。我是 Tim Dodd，Everyday Astronaut，把太空带给每一个普通人。