Lex FridmanThe following is a conversation with Elon Musk, his fourth time on this, the Lex Fridman Podcast. I thought you were going to finish it. It’s one of the greatest themes in all of film history.以下是与 Elon Musk 的对话，他第四次来到 Lex Fridman 播客。我以为你要接着唱完的。这是电影史上最经典的主题曲之一。
Elon MuskYeah, that’s great.是啊，太棒了。
Lex FridmanSo I was just thinking about the Roman Empire, as one does.所以我最近一直在想罗马帝国，就像普通人一样。
Elon MuskIs that whole meme where all guys are thinking about the Roman Empire at least once a day?就是那个梗嘛——所有男人每天至少想一次罗马帝国？
Lex FridmanAnd half the population is confused whether it’s true or not. But more seriously, thinking about the wars going on in the world today, and as you know, war and military conquest has been a big part of Roman society and culture, and I think has been a big part of most empires and dynasties throughout human history.而且一半的人根本搞不清楚这是不是真的。说正经的，看看当今世界正在发生的战争，你知道的，战争和军事征服一直是罗马社会与文化的重要组成部分，我认为在人类历史上大多数帝国和王朝中都扮演过重要角色。
Elon MuskYeah, they usually came as a result of conquest. I mean, there’s some like the Hapsburg Empire where there was just a lot of clever marriages.是的，它们通常都是靠征服建立起来的。当然也有例外，比如哈布斯堡帝国，靠的是一大堆精心谋划的联姻。
Lex FridmanBut fundamentally there’s an engine of conquest and they celebrate excellence in warfare, many of the leaders were excellent generals, that kind of thing. So a big picture question, Grok approved, I asked if this is a good question to ask.但从根本上来说，有一股征服的引擎在驱动，他们崇尚卓越的战争能力，许多领袖都是出色的将领，诸如此类。所以这是一个宏观的大问题，经过 Grok 认证——我问过它这是不是个好问题。
Elon MuskTested, Grok approved. Yeah.经过测试，Grok 认证。是的。
Lex FridmanAt least on fun mode. To what degree do you think war is part of human nature versus a consequence of how human societies are structured? I ask this as you have somehow controversially been a proponent of peace.至少在趣味模式下。你认为战争在多大程度上是人类本性的一部分，又在多大程度上是人类社会结构造成的结果？我这样问，是因为你不知为何颇具争议地成了和平的倡导者。
Elon MuskI’m generally a proponent of peace. I mean, ignorance is perhaps, in my view, the real enemy to be countered. That’s the real hard part, not fighting other humans, but all creatures fight. I mean, the jungle is… People think of nature as perhaps some sort of peaceful thing, but in fact it is not. There’s some quite funny Werner Herzog thing where he is in the jungle saying that it’s basically just murder and death in every direction. The plants and animals in the jungle are constantly trying to kill each other every single day, every minute. So it’s not like we’re unusual in that respect.我总体上是主张和平的。在我看来，无知才是真正需要对抗的敌人。真正艰难的不是和其他人类战斗，而是克服无知——但所有生物都会打斗。丛林……人们也许觉得自然是某种宁静的东西，但事实并非如此。Werner Herzog 有个很有意思的片段，他站在丛林里说，这里基本上是四面八方的杀戮与死亡。丛林里的动植物每天每分钟都在互相残杀。所以在这一点上，我们人类并不特别。
Lex FridmanWell, there’s a relevant question here, whether with greater intelligence comes greater control over these base instincts for violence.这里有个相关的问题：更高的智能是否能带来对这些暴力本能的更强控制？
Elon MuskYes. We have much more vulnerability to control our limbic instinct for violence than say a chimpanzee. And in fact, if one looks at say, chimpanzee society, it is not friendly. I mean, the Bonobos are an exception, but chimpanzee society is filled with violence and it’s quite horrific, frankly. That’s our limbic system in action. You don’t want to be on the wrong side of a chimpanzee, it’ll eat your face off and tear your nuts off.是的。我们控制边缘系统暴力本能的能力，远比黑猩猩强得多。事实上，看看黑猩猩的社会，那可不友好。Bonobos 是个例外，但黑猩猩社会充满了暴力，说实话相当可怖——那就是我们的边缘系统在起作用。你可不想站在黑猩猩的对立面，它会把你的脸咬掉，把你的蛋蛋扯下来。
Lex FridmanYeah. Basically there’s no limits or ethics or they almost had just war. There’s no just war in the chimpanzee societies. Is war and dominance by any means necessary?是啊。基本上没有任何限制或道德约束，它们几乎只有纯粹的战争——黑猩猩社会里没有"正义之战"。战争和用一切手段称霸？
Elon MuskYeah. Chimpanzee society is a permanent version of human society. They’re not like peace loving basically at all. There’s extreme violence and then once in a while, somebody who’s watched too many Disney movies decides to raise a chimpanzee as a pet, and then that eats their face or they’re nuts off or chew their fingers off and that kind of thing. It’s happened several times.是的。黑猩猩社会是人类社会的永久版本。它们根本不是那种热爱和平的物种。极端暴力是常态，偶尔会有看了太多迪士尼电影的人决定把黑猩猩当宠物养，然后它就把他们的脸咬掉，或者扯掉蛋蛋，或者咬断手指之类的。这种事已经发生过好几次了。
Lex FridmanRipping your nuts off is an interesting strategy for interaction.把蛋蛋扯下来，真是一种很有意思的互动策略啊。
Elon MuskIt’s happened to people. It’s unfortunate. That’s, I guess, one way to ensure that the other chimp doesn’t contribute to the gene pool.这种事确实发生在人身上。很不幸。我想，这算是一种确保对方的黑猩猩无法继续传播基因的方式吧。
Lex FridmanWell, from a martial arts perspective is the fascinating strategy.从武术角度来看，这是一个相当迷人的策略。
Elon MuskThe nut rougher.蛋蛋破坏者。
Lex FridmanI wonder which of the martial arts teaches that one.我倒想知道哪门武术会教这一招。
Elon MuskI think it’s safe to say if somebody’s got your nuts in their hands and as the option of roughing them off, you’ll be amenable to whatever they want.我想可以这么说：如果有人攥着你的蛋蛋，并且有机会把它们扯下来，你大概会对他的任何要求言听计从。
Lex FridmanYeah. Safe to say. So, like I said, somehow controversially, you’ve been a proponent of peace on Twitter on X.是的，这话没毛病。那么，就像我说的，你在 Twitter/X 上以某种颇具争议的方式成了和平的倡导者。
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Lex FridmanSo let me ask you about the wars going on today and to see what the path to peace could be. How do you hope the current war in Israel and Gaza comes to an end? What path do you see that can minimize human suffering in the longterm in that part of the world?那让我来问问你当今正在发生的战争，看看通往和平的路在哪里。你希望以色列和加沙之间的战争如何收场？你认为哪条路可以从长远上最大限度地减少那个地区的人类苦难？
Elon MuskWell, I think that part of the world is definitely, if you look up… There is no easy answer in the dictionary. It’ll be the picture of the Middle East in Israel especially. So there is no easy answer. This is strictly my opinion is that the goal of Hamas was to provoke an overreaction from Israel. They obviously did not expect to have a military victory, but they really wanted to commit the worst atrocities that they could in order to provoke the most aggressive response possible from Israel, and then leverage that aggressive response to rally Muslims worldwide for the course of Gaza and Palestine, which they have succeeded in doing. So the counterintuitive thing here, I think that the thing that I think should be done, even though it’s very difficult, is that I would recommend that Israel engage in the most conspicuous acts of kindness possible, everything, that is the actual thing that we’re taught the goal of Hamas.嗯，我认为那个地区……如果你去查"无解"这个词，字典里配的图片大概就是中东，尤其是以色列。所以确实没有简单的答案。这严格是我个人的看法：Hamas 的目标就是激怒以色列做出过激反应。他们显然没有指望在军事上取得胜利，但他们真正想做的是制造尽可能恶劣的暴行，以激发以色列尽可能强烈的回应，然后利用这种强烈回应来号召全球穆斯林支持加沙和巴勒斯坦的事业——他们在这一点上已经成功了。所以这里有个反直觉的东西：我认为以色列应该做到的，尽管非常困难，是以最显眼的方式展现善意，这才是真正能打败 Hamas 目标的东西。
Lex FridmanSo in some sense, the degree that makes sense in geopolitics turn the other cheek implemented.从某种意义上说，这在地缘政治层面，是"另一边脸"策略的落地执行。
Elon MuskIt’s not exactly turn the other cheek because I do think that it is appropriate for Israel to find the Hamas members and either kill them or incarcerate them. That’s something has to be done because they’re just going to keep coming otherwise. But in addition to that, they need to do whatever they can. There’s some talk of establishing, for example, a mobile hospital. I’d recommend doing that. Just making sure that there’s food, water, medical necessities and just be over the top about it and be very transparent. So [inaudible 00:07:22] can claim it’s a trick. Just put webcam on the thing or 24, 7.也不完全是"打落牙齿和血吞"，因为我确实认为以色列追杀 Hamas 成员、将其击毙或关押是合理的。这件事必须做，否则他们只会继续来。但除此之外，以色列还需要竭尽所能——比如有人提议建立移动医院，我建议这样做。就是要确保那里有食物、饮水、基本医疗物资，而且要大张旗鼓地做，做到极度透明，让人无从说这是把戏。就在那上面架摄像头，24 小时 7 天直播。
Lex FridmanDeploy acts of kindness.部署善意之举。
Elon MuskYeah, conspicuous acts of kindness that are unequivocal, meaning they can’t be somehow because Hamas will then their response will be, “Oh, it’s a trick.” Therefore, you have to counter how it’s not a trick.是的，要是那种无可辩驳的显眼善意——我说"无可辩驳"，是因为 Hamas 的反应一定会是"哦，这是个把戏"。所以你必须反驳它不是把戏。
Lex FridmanThis ultimately fights the broader force of hatred in the region.这从根本上对抗了这个地区更广泛的仇恨力量。
Elon MuskYes. And I’m not sure who said it, it’s an [inaudible 00:07:54] saying, but an eye for an eye makes everyone blind. Now, that neck of the woods, they really believe in the whole eye for an eye thing. But you really have… If you’re not going to just outright commit genocide against an entire people, which obviously would not be acceptable to really, shouldn’t be acceptable to anyone, then you’re going to leave basically a lot of people alive who subsequently hate Israel. So really the question is like for every Hamas member that you kill, how many did you create? And if you create more than you killed, you’ve not succeeded. That’s the real situation there. And it’s safe to say that if you kill somebody’s child in Gaza, you’ve made at least a few homeless members who will die just to kill an Israeli. That’s the situation. But I mean, this is one of the most contentious subjects one could possibly discuss. But I think if the goal ultimately is some sort of long-term piece, one has to look at this from the standpoint of over time, are there more or fewer terrorists being created?是的。我不记得是谁说的了，但有句老话是这样的：以眼还眼，让所有人都瞎。现在，那片地方的人真的非常信奉以眼还眼这一套。但你得想到……如果你不打算对整个民族实施种族灭绝——这显然是任何人都不应该接受的——那你基本上就会留下大量之后对以色列充满仇恨的人。所以真正的问题是：你每杀一个 Hamas 成员，你制造了多少个新的？如果制造的比杀死的多，那你就没有成功。这才是真实情况。可以说，如果你在加沙杀死了某人的孩子，你至少制造了几个新的无家可归者，他们愿意以命换命去杀一个以色列人。这就是现实。但我是说，这是最具争议性的话题之一。但我认为，如果最终目标是某种长期和平，就必须从这个角度思考：随着时间推移，是越来越多还是越来越少的恐怖分子被制造出来？
Lex FridmanLet me just linger on war.让我再在战争这个话题上多停留一会儿。
Elon MuskYeah, war, safe to say, wars always existed and always will exist.是的，战争——可以肯定地说，战争一直存在，也将永远存在。
Lex FridmanAlways will exist.将永远存在。
Elon MuskAlways has existed and always will exist.一直存在，也将永远存在。
Lex FridmanI hope not. You think it’ll always-我希望不是。你认为它将永远——
Elon MuskThere will always be war. There’s a question of just how much war and there’s sort of the scope and scale of war. But to imagine that there would not be any war in the future, I think would be a very unlikely outcome.战争将永远存在。问题只是战争的规模有多大，范围和规模会有所不同。但要想象未来没有任何战争，我认为这是极不可能的结果。
Lex FridmanYeah. You talked about the Culture series. There’s war even there.是的。你谈到了 Culture 系列小说，那里面也有战争。
Elon MuskYes. It’s a giant war. The first book starts off with a gigantic galactic war where trillions die trillions.是的，而且是一场大战。第一本书一开始就是一场规模巨大的银河战争，死了数万亿人，数万亿。
Lex FridmanBut it still nevertheless protects these pockets of flourishing. Somehow you can have galactic war and still have pockets of flourishing.但它仍然保护了那些繁荣昌盛的角落。某种程度上，银河战争与繁荣的小角落可以并存。
Elon MuskYeah, I guess if we are able to one day expand to fool the galaxy or whatever, there will be a galactic war at some point.是啊，我想如果我们有一天能扩展到占领整个星系，某个时刻肯定会爆发一场星系战争。
Lex FridmanI mean, the scale of war has been increasing, increasing, increasing. It’s like a race between the scale of suffering and the scale of flourishing.我是说，战争的规模一直在增长、增长、再增长。这就像是一场苦难的规模与繁荣的规模之间的竞赛。
Elon MuskYes.是的。
Lex FridmanA lot of people seem to be using this tragedy to beat the drums of war and feed the military industrial complex. Do you worry about this, the people who are rooting for escalation and how can it be stopped?很多人似乎在利用这场悲剧来敲响战争的鼓声，为军工复合体输血。你担心这些鼓吹升级的人吗？这种势头能被阻止吗？
Elon MuskOne of the things that does concern me is that there are very few people alive today who actually viscerally understand the horrors of war, at least in the US. I mean, obviously there are people on the front lines in Ukraine and Russia who understand just how terrible war is, but how many people in the West understand it? My grandfather was in World War II. He was severely traumatized. He was there I think for almost six years in Eastern North Africa and Italy. All his friends were killed in front of him, and he would’ve died too, except they randomly gave some, I guess IQ test or something, and he scored very high. He was not an officer. He was I think a corporal or a sergeant or something like that because he didn’t finish high school because he had to drop out of high school because his dad died and he had to work to support his siblings. So because he didn’t graduate high school, he was not eligible for the offset corps.有一件事确实让我担忧：如今真正在感官层面理解战争之恐怖的人已经寥寥无几，至少在美国是这样。当然，在乌克兰和俄罗斯前线的人对战争有多可怕是有切身体会的，但西方有多少人真的理解？我外公参加过第二次世界大战，他受到了严重的心理创伤。我想他在北非东部和意大利一共待了将近六年。他的朋友们都在他面前阵亡，他自己也本该死，只是因为他们随机给了某种智力测试或者类似的东西，而他得了很高的分。他不是军官。我想他是个下士或者中士之类的，因为他没有高中毕业——他父亲死后他不得不辍学打工养活弟妹。所以因为没有高中文凭，他没有资格进军官学院。
Elon MuskSo he kind of got put into the cannon fodder category basically. But then randomly they gave him this test. He was transferred to British intelligence in London. That’s where we met my grandmother. But he had PTSD next level, next level. I mean, just didn’t talk, just didn’t talk. And if you tried talking to him, he’d just tell you to shut up. And he won a bunch of medals, never bragged about it once, not even hinted nothing. I found out about it because his military records were online. That’s how I know. So he would say like, “No way in hell do you want to do that again.” But how many people… Obviously, he died, he 20 years ago or longer, actually 30 years ago. How many people are alive that remember World War II? Not many.所以他基本上被划到了炮灰的范畴。但随机地，他们给了他一个测试，他被调到了英国情报机构在伦敦的部门，就在那里他遇到了我外婆。但他有极度的 PTSD，极度的那种。就是不说话，什么都不说。你要是试着跟他说话，他就让你闭嘴。他得了一堆勋章，从来没有吹嘘过一次，连暗示都没有，什么都没说过。我是因为他的军事档案在网上才知道这些的。他的意思就是：去他妈的，再也不想经历那种事了。但是有多少人……显然他已经去世了，大概二十年前，或者更久，其实是三十年前。现在还有多少人记得二战？没几个了。
Lex FridmanAnd the same perhaps applies to the threat of nuclear war.对核战争的威胁，也许同样适用这个说法。
Elon MuskYeah, I mean, there are enough nuclear bombs pointed at United States to make the radioactive revel balance many times.是的，我是说，对准美国的核弹数量已经足够把这片大地变成放射性废土很多次了。
Lex FridmanThere’s two major wars going on right now. So you talked about the threat of AGI quite a bit, but now as we sit here with the intensity of conflict going on, do you worry about nuclear war?现在有两场重大战争正在进行。你之前谈了很多关于 AGI 威胁的问题，但现在我们坐在这里，面对着如此激烈的冲突，你会担心核战争吗？
Elon MuskI think we shouldn’t discount the possibility of nuclear war. It is a civilizational threat. Right now, I could be wrong, but I think the current probability of nuclear war is quite low. But there are a lot of nukes pointed at us, and we have a lot of nukes pointed at other people. They’re still there. Nobody’s put their guns away. The missiles are still in the silos.我认为不应该低估核战争的可能性。这是一种文明层面的威胁。目前，我可能是错的，但我认为核战争爆发的概率很低。但是有大量核弹对准着我们，我们也有大量核弹对准着其他人。它们还在那儿。没有人把枪收起来。导弹还在发射井里。
Lex FridmanAnd the leaders don’t seem to be the ones with the nukes talking to each other.而且掌握核武器的领导人之间似乎并没有在彼此交谈。
Elon MuskNo, there are wars which are tragic and difficult on a local basis. And then there are wars which are civilization ending or has that potential. Obviously, global thermonuclear warfare has high potential to end civilization, perhaps permanently, but certainly to severely wound and perhaps set back human progress to the Stone Age or something. I don’t know. Pretty bad. Probably scientists and engineers want to be super popular after that as well. You got us into this mess. So generally, I think we obviously want to prioritize civilizational risks over things that are painful and tragic on a local level, but not civilizational.不。有些战争在局部是悲惨而艰难的。然后还有些战争可能终结文明，或者有这种潜力。显然，全球热核战争有很高的潜力终结文明，也许是永久性地，但至少会严重伤害人类，也许会把人类文明倒退到石器时代之类的。我不知道。总之相当糟糕。事后科学家和工程师大概也不会太受欢迎——"是你们把我们带进这个烂摊子的。"所以总体而言，我认为我们显然应该优先处理文明层面的风险，而非那些在局部虽然痛苦和悲惨、但不构成文明威胁的事情。
Lex FridmanHow do you hope the war in Ukraine comes to an end? And what’s the path, once again to minimizing human suffering there?你希望乌克兰战争如何收场？再次问，通往最大限度减少那里人类苦难的路在哪里？
Elon MuskWell, I think that what is likely to happen, which is really pretty much the way it is, is that something very close to the current lines will be how a ceasefire or truce happens. But you just have a situation right now where whoever goes on the offensive will suffer casualties at several times the rate of whoever’s on the defense because you’ve got defense in depth, you’ve got minefields, trenches, anti-tank defenses. Nobody has air superiority because the anti-aircraft missiles are really far better than the aircraft. They’re far more of them. And so neither side has air superiority. Tanks are basically death traps, just slow moving, and they’re not immune to anti-tank weapons. So you really just have long range artillery and infantry ranges. It’s World War I all over again with drones, thrown old drones, some drones there.嗯，我认为最可能发生的情况——也基本上是现在的状态——是停火或停战的边界线会非常接近目前的实际战线。现在的处境是，任何一方主动进攻，伤亡率都会比防守方高出数倍，因为对方有纵深防御、雷区、壕沟、反坦克防御。没有任何一方拥有制空权，因为防空导弹比战机强太多了，数量也远远更多。所以两方都没有制空权。坦克基本上就是死亡陷阱，移动缓慢，而且不能抵御反坦克武器。所以基本上就是远程炮兵对战和步兵范围内的交锋。这是加了无人机的一战重演，到处都是无人机。
Lex FridmanWhich makes the long range artillery just that much more accurate and better, and so more efficient at murdering people on both sides.而这让远程炮兵更加精准、更加高效，从而更有效地在双方都制造杀戮。
Elon MuskSo whoever is… You don’t want to be trying to advance from either side because the probability of dying is incredibly high. So in order to overcome defense in depth, trenches and minefields, you really need a significant local superiority in numbers. Ideally combined alms where you do a fast attack with aircraft, a concentrated number of tanks, and a lot of people, that’s the only way you’re going to punch through a line and then you’re going to punch through and then not have reinforcements just kick you right out again. I mean, I really recommend people read World War I warfare in detail. That’s rough. I mean, the sheer number of people that died there was mind-boggling.所以无论是哪一方……你都不想从任何一侧发起进攻，因为死亡的概率极高。要想突破纵深防御、壕沟和雷区，你真的需要在局部有显著的兵力优势。理想情况是联合兵种作战——用飞机发动快速突击，集中数量的坦克，加上大量步兵——这是唯一突破防线的方式，而且突破之后还要确保有足够的增援，不然马上就会被赶回去。我真的建议大家去仔细读读一战的战争史，太残酷了。那里死亡的人数多到令人难以置信。
Lex FridmanAnd it’s almost impossible to imagine the end of it that doesn’t look like almost exactly like the beginning in terms of what land belongs to who and so on. But on the other side of a lot of human suffering, death and destruction of infrastructure.而且几乎可以预见，战争结束时的情形和开始时在领土归属上几乎一模一样，只是换来了大量的人类苦难、死亡和基础设施的破坏。
Elon MuskYes. The thing that… The reason I proposed some sort of truce or peace a year ago was because I’ve predicted pretty much exactly what would happen, which is a lot of people dying for basically almost no changes in land and the loss of the flower of Ukrainian and Russian youth. And we should have some sympathy for the Russian boys as well as the Ukrainian boys, because Russian boys, because boys didn’t ask to be on their frontline. They have to be. So there’s a lot of sons not coming back to their parents, and I think most of them don’t hate the other side. It’s sort of like as this saying comes from World War I, it’s like young boys who don’t know each other killing each other on behalf of old men that do know each other. The hell’s the point of that.是的。我一年前提议某种停火或和平的原因，是因为我几乎完全预测到了会发生什么——很多人在土地基本没有变化的情况下死去，以及乌克兰和俄罗斯年轻一代中最优秀的人的牺牲。我们也应该对俄罗斯的小伙子抱有同情，和对乌克兰的一样，因为俄罗斯的小伙子们并不是自愿上前线的。他们不得不去。所以有很多儿子不会回到父母身边了。我想他们大多数人并不真的憎恨对方。就像一战里说的那句话一样：不相识的年轻人，代表相识的老人互相厮杀。这有什么意义呢。
Lex FridmanSo Volodymyr Zelenskyy said that he’s not, or has said in the past, he’s not interested in talking to Putin directly. Do you think he should sit down man to man, lead a leader, and negotiate peace?Volodymyr Zelenskyy 曾表示，他不愿意或曾说过不愿意直接与 Putin 谈判。你认为他应该面对面、领导人对领导人地坐下来谈和平吗？
Elon MuskLook, I think I would just recommend do not send the flower of Ukrainian youth to die in trenches, whether he talks to Putin or not, just don’t do that. Whoever goes on the offensive will lose massive numbers of people and history will not look kindly upon them.听着，我的建议就是：不管他是否和 Putin 谈，都不要让乌克兰年轻一代的精华去战壕里送死。任何主动进攻的一方都会损失惨重，历史不会对他们给出善意的评价。
Lex FridmanYou’ve spoken honestly about the possibility of war between US and China in the longterm if no diplomatic solution is found, for example, on the question of Taiwan and One China policy, how do we avoid the trajectory where these two superpowers clash?你曾坦诚地谈到，如果美中之间在台湾问题和一个中国政策上找不到外交解决方案，长期来看存在爆发战争的可能性。我们如何避免这两个超级大国走向对抗？
Elon MuskWell, it’s worth reading that book on the, difficult to pronounce, the Thucydides Trap, I believe it’s called. I love war history. I like inside out and backwards. There’s hardly a battle I haven’t read about. And trying to figure out what really was the cause of victory in any particular case as opposed to what one side or another claim the reason.嗯，值得去读一读那本关于——名字有点难读——"修昔底德陷阱"的书。我热爱战争史，对里里外外都了如指掌，几乎没有哪场战役我没读过。我一直试图搞清楚，在任何具体案例中，胜利的真正原因是什么，而不是交战一方或另一方所宣称的原因。
Lex FridmanBoth the victory and what sparked the war and-无论是胜利的原因，还是战争爆发的导火索——
Elon MuskYeah, yeah.是的，是的。
Lex FridmanThe whole thing.整个来龙去脉。
Elon MuskYeah. So that Athens and Sparta is a classic case. The thing about the Greek is they really wrote down a lot of stuff. They loved writing. There are lots of interesting things that happened in many parts of the world, but people didn’t write down, so we don’t know what happened or they didn’t really write in detail. They just would say, “We had a battle and we won.” And what? Can you add a bit more? The Greeks, they really wrote a lot. They were very articulate on… They just love writing. And we have a bunch of that writing as preserved. So we know what led up to the Peloponnesian War between the Spartanand Athenian Alliance, and we know that they saw it coming.是的。雅典和斯巴达就是一个经典案例。希腊人真的写下了大量东西。他们热爱写作。世界许多地方发生了很多有趣的事，但那些民族没有记录下来，所以我们不知道发生了什么，或者他们记录得不够详细，只写"我们打了一场仗，我们赢了"。能不能多说一点？而希腊人，他们真的写了很多，表达极其清晰，他们就是热爱写作。我们保存了大量他们的文字。所以我们知道是什么导致了斯巴达同盟与雅典同盟之间的伯罗奔尼撒战争，我们知道他们当时已经看到了这场冲突的来临。
Elon MuskSpartans didn’t write… They also weren’t very verbose by their nature, but they did write, but they weren’t very verbose. They were [inaudible 00:21:23]. But the Athenians and the other Greeks wrote a line, and Spartan was really kind of like the leader of Greece. But Athens grew stronger and stronger with each passing year. And everyone’s like, “Well, that’s inevitable that there’s going to be a clash between Athens and Sparta. Well, how do we avoid that?” And actually they saw it coming and they still could not avoid it. So at some point, if one group, one civilization or country or whatever exceeds another sort of like the United States has been the biggest kid on the block since I think around 1890 from an economic standpoint.斯巴达人……他们天性也不是很多话，但他们写了东西，只是不怎么啰嗦。他们言简意赅。但雅典人和其他希腊人写了很多，斯巴达实际上有点像是希腊的老大。但雅典一年比一年强大。所有人都在想，雅典和斯巴达之间的冲突是不可避免的。那我们怎么避免呢？实际上他们看到了它的到来，却依然没能避免。所以如果某一群体、某一文明或某一国家超过了另一个……就好比美国大约从 1890 年起在经济上就是那个地盘上最强的孩子。
Elon MuskSo the United States has been the most powerful economic engine in the world longer than anyone’s been alive. And the foundation of war is economics. So now we have a situation in the case of China where the economy is likely to be two, perhaps three times larger than that of the US. So imagine you’re the biggest kid on the block for as long as anyone can remember, and suddenly a kid comes along who’s twice your size.所以美国作为世界上最强大的经济引擎的时间，比任何在世的人的年龄都长。而战争的基础是经济。所以现在我们面对的是中国的情况：其经济规模可能达到美国的两倍，甚至三倍。想象一下，你在一个地盘上是最大的孩子，这是所有人有记忆以来就一直如此，突然来了一个比你大两倍的孩子。
Lex FridmanSo we see it coming, how is it possible to stop? Let me throw something out there, just intermixing of cultures understanding there does seem to be a giant cultural gap in understanding of each other. And you’re an interesting case study because you are an American, obviously you’ve done a lot of incredible manufacture here in the United States, but you also work with China.所以我们看到了它的来临，有没有可能阻止？让我提一个思路，就是文化的相互交融与理解——两国之间似乎存在巨大的文化理解鸿沟。你是一个有趣的案例，因为你显然是美国人，在美国做了大量令人难以置信的制造业，但你同时也在中国开展业务。
Elon MuskI’ve spent a lot of time in China and met with the leadership many times.我在中国花了大量时间，多次与领导层会面。
Lex FridmanMaybe a good question to ask is, what are some things about China that people don’t understand, positive just in the culture? What’s some interesting things that you’ve learned about the Chinese?也许可以问这样一个问题：有哪些关于中国的事情是外界不了解的，从正面角度来说，比如文化方面？你对中国人有哪些有趣的了解？
Elon MuskWell, the sheer number of really smart, hardworking people in China is incredible. There are really say how many smart, hardworking people are there in China? There’s far more of them there than there are here, I think, in my opinion. And they’ve got a lot of energy. So I mean, the architecture in China that’s in recent years is far more impressive than the US. I mean the train stations, the buildings, the high speed rail, everything, it’s really far more impressive than what we have in the US. I mean, I recommend somebody just go to Shanghai and Beijing, look at the buildings and go to take the train from Beijing to Xian, where you have the terracotta warriors. China’s got an incredible history, very long history, and I think arguably in terms of the use of language from a written standpoint, one of the oldest, perhaps the oldest written language, and then China, people did write things down.嗯，中国真正聪明、勤奋的人的数量多得惊人。中国到底有多少聪明勤奋的人？我认为那里有比这里多得多的，在我看来。而且他们很有活力。中国近年来的建筑比美国的印象深刻多了。那些火车站、建筑、高铁，一切都远比我们在美国拥有的更令人震撼。我建议大家去上海和北京看看那些建筑，然后坐火车从北京去西安，那里有兵马俑。中国有着令人难以置信的历史，非常悠久，而且就书写意义上的语言运用而言，可以说是最古老的语言之一，甚至可能是最古老的，而且中国人确实把事情记录了下来。
Elon MuskSo now China historically has always been, with rare exception, been internally focused. They have not been inquisitive. They’ve fought each other. There’ve been many, many civil wars. In the Three Kingdoms war, I believe they lost about 70% of their population. So they’ve had brutal internal wars, civil wars that make the US Civil War look small by comparison. So I think it’s important to appreciate that China is not monolithic. We sort of think of China as a sort of one entity of one mind. And this is definitely not the case. From what I’ve seen and I think most people who understand China would agree, people in China think about China 10 times more than they think about anything outside of China. So it’s like 90% of their consideration is internal.从历史上看，中国总体上一直是内向型的，鲜有例外。他们并不热衷于对外扩张。他们内部互相争斗，经历了很多内战。三国战争中，我相信他们失去了大约 70% 的人口。所以他们经历过残酷的内战，比起美国内战来说规模要大得多。所以重要的是要认识到，中国并非铁板一块。我们有时把中国看作一个有着统一意志的单一实体，但事实绝非如此。从我所了解的以及大多数真正了解中国的人都会同意的来看，中国人思考中国内部事务的时间，是思考中国以外任何事情的 10 倍。所以大约 90% 的关注都是向内的。
Lex FridmanWell, isn’t that a really positive thing when you’re talking about the collaboration and the future piece between superpowers when you’re inward facing, which is focusing on improving yourself versus focusing on quote, unquote improving others through military might.这难道不是在谈论超级大国之间的合作与未来和平时非常积极的一件事吗——当一个国家是内向型的，也就是专注于改善自身，而不是通过军事力量去"改善"他人的时候。
Elon MuskThe good news, the history of China suggests that China is not inquisitive, meaning they’re not going to go out and invade a whole bunch of countries. Now they do feel very strongly… So that’s good. I mean, because a lot of very powerful countries have been inquisitive. The US is also one of the rare cases that has not been inquisitive. After World War II, the US could have basically taken over the world in any country, we’ve got nukes, nobody else has got nukes. We don’t even have to lose soldiers. Which country do you want? And the United States could have taken over everything and it didn’t. And the United States actually helped rebuild countries. So it helped rebuild Europe, helped rebuild Japan. This is very unusual behavior, almost unprecedented.好消息是，中国的历史表明，中国并不是扩张型的，也就是说他们不会出去大规模入侵别国。当然，他们确实有非常强烈的某些立场……这是好事，因为历史上很多非常强大的国家都是扩张型的。美国也是少数几个没有走扩张路线的案例之一。二战后，美国本可以基本上占领整个世界——任何国家，我们有核弹，别人没有，我们甚至不用牺牲士兵，你想要哪个国家？美国本可以拿下一切，但它没有。美国反而帮助重建了那些国家，帮助重建了欧洲，帮助重建了日本。这是非常不寻常的行为，几乎是前所未有的。
Elon MuskThe US did conspicuous acts of kindness like the Berlin Airlift. And I think it’s always like, well, America’s done bad things. Well, of course America’s done bad things, but one needs to look at the whole track record and just generally, one sort of test would be how do you treat your prisoners at war? Or let’s say, no offense to the Russians, but let’s say you’re in Germany, it’s 1945, you’ve got the Russian Army coming one side and you’ve got the French, British and American Army’s coming the other side, who would you like to be just surrendered to? No country is [inaudible 00:27:58] perfect, but I recommend being a POW with the Americans. That would be my choice very strongly.美国采取了显眼的善意之举，比如柏林空运。我想这就像有人说，美国做过坏事——当然，任何国家都做过坏事，但需要看整体记录。有个简单的测试：作为战俘，你希望被谁俘虏？比方说，在德国，1945 年，一边是俄国军队打来，另一边是法国、英国和美国军队打来，你希望向哪边投降？没有哪个国家是完美的，但我强烈推荐选择做美国人的战俘，这是我的强烈首选。
Lex FridmanIn the full menu of POWs in the US.全套战俘待遇，美国版。
Elon MuskVery much so. And in fact, Wernher von Braun, a smart guy, was like, “We’ve got to be captured by the Americans.” And in fact, the SS was under orders to execute von Braun and all of the German rocket conditioners, and they narrowly escaped. They said they were going out for a walk in the woods. They left in the middle of winter with no coats and then ran, but no food, no coats, no water, and just ran like hell and ran West and Vice Sherlock, I think his brother found a bicycle or something and then just cycled West as fast as he couldn’t have found a US patrol. So anyway, that’s one way you can tell morality is where do you want to be a PW? It’s not fun anywhere, but some places are much worse than others. Anyway, so America has been, while far from perfect, generally a benevolent force, and we should always be self-critical and we try to be better, but anyone with half a brain knows that.非常正确。事实上，Wernher von Braun 这个聪明人，当时就想的是"我们必须被美国人俘虏"。实际上，SS 有命令要处决 von Braun 和所有德国火箭专家，但他们险险逃脱。他们说是去树林里散步，然后在严冬里既没有外套、没有食物、也没有水，就这么跑了出去，拼命向西跑——我想是他的兄弟找到了一辆自行车还是什么，然后拼命向西骑，直到碰上美国巡逻队。总之，这就是判断道德的一种方式——你愿意被谁抓？做战俘哪里都不好受，但有的地方比其他地方糟糕得多。总而言之，美国虽然远非完美，但总体上是一种良善的力量，我们应该一直进行自我批评并努力做得更好，但任何有半分脑子的人都清楚这一点。
Elon MuskSo I think there are… In this way, China and the United States are similar. Neither country has been acquisitive in a significant way. So that’s a shared principle, I guess. Now, China does feel very strongly about Taiwan. They’ve been very clear about that for a long time. From this standpoint, it would be like one of the states is not there like Hawaii or something like that but more significant than Hawaii. And Hawaii is pretty significant for us. So they view it as really there’s a fundamental part of China, the island of Formosa, not Taiwan, that is not part of China, but should be. And the only reason it hasn’t been is because the US Pacific fleet.所以我认为，在这一点上，中国和美国是相似的。这两个国家都没有以显著的方式走上领土扩张的道路。这是一个共同的原则，我想。不过，中国对台湾问题确实抱有非常强烈的立场，而且他们为此表达了很长时间了。从他们的角度来看，这就好比美国的某个州——比如夏威夷——不属于美国，但更重要的是，夏威夷对我们来说已经非常重要了。他们认为，福摩萨岛，也就是不叫台湾而应称台湾，理应是中国的一部分，但唯一阻止这一点的是美国太平洋舰队。
Lex FridmanAnd is their economic power grows and is their military power grows, the thing that they’re clearly saying is their interest will clearly be materialized.而随着他们经济实力的增长和军事实力的增长，他们明确表达的利益显然将会实现。
Elon MuskYes, China has been very clear that they’ll incorporate Taiwan peacefully or militarily, but that they will incorporate it from their standpoint is 100% likely.是的，中国非常明确地表示，他们将以和平或军事手段将台湾纳入版图，从他们的立场来看，这是 100% 必然会发生的。
Lex FridmanSomething you said about conspicuous acts of kindness as a geopolitical policy, it almost seems naive, but I’d venture to say that this is probably the path forward, how you avoid most wars. Just as you say it sounds naive, but it’s kind of brilliant. If you believe in the goodness of underlying most of human nature, it just seems like conspicuous acts of kindness can reverberate through the populace of the countries involved and deescalate.你之前说的"显眼的善意"作为一种地缘政治策略，听起来也许很天真，但我大胆地说，这可能正是避免大多数战争的前进之路。就像你说的，听起来天真，但其实相当高明。如果你相信大多数人类本性中善良的一面，显眼的善意似乎真的可以在相关国家的民众中产生共鸣并促进降级。
Elon MuskAbsolutely. So after World War I, they made a big mistake. They basically tried to lump all of blame on Germany and saddle Germany with impossible reparations. And really there was quite a bit of blame to go around for World War I, but they try to put it all in Germany and that laid the seeds for World War II. So a lot of people, were not just Hitler, a lot of people felt wronged and they wanted vengeance and they got it.完全正确。一战结束后，他们犯了一个大错——基本上试图把所有责任都推到德国身上，给德国套上根本无法偿还的赔款枷锁。其实一战的责任是分散的，但他们试图全甩给德国，这就埋下了二战的种子。很多人——不只是希特勒，很多人——都感到被冤枉，他们想要复仇，而他们得到了。
Lex FridmanPeople don’t forget.人不会忘记。
Elon MuskYeah, you kill somebody’s father, mother or son, daughter, they’re not going to forget it. They’ll want vengeance. So after World War II, they’re like, “Well, the Treaty of Versi was a huge mistake in World War I. And so this time, instead of crushing the losers, we’re actually going to help them with the module plan, and we’re going to help rebuild Germany. We’re going to help rebuild Austria and Italy and whatnot.” So that was the right move.是的，你杀了某人的父亲、母亲、儿子或女儿，他们不会忘记，他们会寻求复仇。所以二战结束后，大家都觉得，凡尔赛和约是一战的一个巨大错误，所以这次，与其压垮失败者，不如通过马歇尔计划帮助他们，重建德国，重建奥地利、意大利等国。这才是正确的做法。
Lex FridmanIt does feel like there’s a profound truth to the conspicuous acts of kindness being an antidote to this.感觉显眼的善意确实是打破这种循环的深刻真理。
Elon MuskSomething must stop the cycle of reciprocal violence. Something must stop it, or it’ll never stop. Just eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, limb for a limb, life for a life forever and ever.必须有什么东西来打破这种相互报复的暴力循环，必须要有什么东西能阻止它，否则它永远不会停止。就是以眼还眼、以牙还牙、以肢还肢、以命换命，永无止境。
Lex FridmanTo escape briefly the darkness, was some incredible engineering work, xAI just released Grok AI assistant that I’ve gotten a chance to play with. It’s amazing on many levels. First of all, it’s amazing that a relatively small team in a relatively short amount of time was able to develop this close to state-of-the-art system. Another incredible thing is there’s a regular mode and there’s a fun mode.从这片黑暗中稍微出来透口气——说到一些令人惊叹的工程成就——xAI 刚刚发布了 Grok AI 助手，我有机会玩了一下，在很多方面都令人惊艳。首先，一个相对较小的团队在相对较短的时间内开发出了这个接近最先进水平的系统，这本身就令人难以置信。另一件令人惊叹的事是，它有一个普通模式和一个趣味模式。
Elon MuskYeah, I guess I’m to blame for that one.是的，这个我得负责。
Lex FridmanFirst of all, I wish everything in life had a fun mode.首先，我希望生活里的一切都有趣味模式。
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Lex FridmanThere’s something compelling beyond just fun about the fun mode interacting with a large language model. I’m not sure exactly what it is because I’ve only have had a little bit of time to play with it, but it just makes it more interesting, more vibrant to interact with the system.与大语言模型的趣味模式互动，除了好玩之外，还有一种难以言说的吸引力。我不确定那到底是什么，因为我只玩了一点点，但它让与系统的互动变得更有趣、更生动。
Elon MuskYeah, absolutely. Our AI, Grok, is modeled after The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, which is one of my favorite books, which it’s a book on philosophy. It’s-是的，绝对如此。我们的 AI——Grok——的原型是《银河系漫游指南》，这是我最喜欢的书之一，它是一本以幽默为外衣的哲学书——
Elon MuskMy favorite books, it’s a book on philosophy, disguises book on humor. And I would say that forms the basis of my philosophy, which is that we don’t know the meaning of life, but the more we can expand the scope and scale of consciousness, digital and biological, the more we’re able to understand what questions to ask about the answer that is the universe. So I have a philosophy of curiosity.是我最喜欢的书，它是一本伪装成幽默书的哲学书。我会说它构成了我哲学观的基础：我们不知道生命的意义，但我们能越多地扩展意识的范围和规模——无论是数字意识还是生物意识——我们就越能理解该向这个作为答案的宇宙提出什么问题。所以我的哲学就是好奇心哲学。
Lex FridmanThere is generally a feeling like this AI system has an outward looking, like the way you are sitting with a good friend looking up at the stars, asking pod head like questions about the universe, wondering what it’s all about. The curiosity that you talk about. No matter how mundane the question I ask it, there’s a sense of cosmic grandeur to the whole thing.这个 AI 系统整体上给人一种向外凝视的感觉——就像你和一个好朋友坐在一起仰望星空，问着那些听起来像哲学探讨的宇宙级问题，思考这一切究竟是为了什么。就是你说的那种好奇心。不管我问的问题多么平凡，整件事都弥漫着一种宇宙般的宏大感。
Elon MuskWell, we are actually working hard to have engineering math, physics answers that you can count on. So for the other AIs out there, these so-called large language models, I’ve not found the engineering to be reliable. It unfortunately hallucinates most when you at least want it to hallucinate. So when you’re asking important, difficult questions, that’s when it tends to be confidently wrong. So we’re really trying hard to say, okay, how do we be as grounded as possible? So you can count on the results, trace things back to physics first principles, mathematical logic. So underlying the humor is an aspiration to adhere to the truth of the universe as closely as possible.嗯，我们正在努力确保工程、数学、物理方面的答案是可以信赖的。对于其他那些所谓的大语言模型，我发现它们在工程方面并不可靠。很不幸，它们在你最不希望它们胡说的时候最容易胡说。也就是说，当你问重要的、困难的问题时，它往往会自信地给出错误答案。所以我们真的非常努力地在想，如何才能尽可能地脚踏实地？让你可以信赖结果，将一切追溯到物理第一性原理和数学逻辑。所以在幽默的背后，是一种尽可能贴近宇宙真相的追求。
Lex FridmanThat’s really tricky.这确实很棘手。
Elon MuskIt is tricky. So that’s why there’s always going to be some amount of error. But do we want to aspire to be as truthful as possible about the answers with acknowledged error. So that there was always, you don’t want to be confidently wrong, so you’re not going to be right every time, but you want to minimize how often you’re confidently wrong. And then like I said, once you can count on the logic as being not violating physics, then you can start to bull on that to create inventions, like invent new technologies. But if you cannot count on the foundational physics being correct, obviously the inventions are simply wishful thinking, imagination land. Magic basically.确实棘手。所以总会有一定量的误差。但我们是否应该追求尽可能诚实地给出答案，并承认误差？这样的话，你知道自己不可能每次都对，但你想最大限度地减少自信地给出错误答案的频率。就像我说的，一旦你能信赖逻辑不违背物理，那么你就可以在此基础上进行构建，创造发明，发明新技术。但如果你不能信赖基础物理的正确性，那显然所有发明都只是一厢情愿，活在想象的国度里——基本上就是魔法。
Lex FridmanWell, as you said, I think one of the big goals of XAI is to understand the universe.嗯，就像你说的，我认为 xAI 的一个重要目标就是理解宇宙。
Elon MuskYes, that’s how simple three word mission.是的，就是这个简简单单的三个词的使命。
Lex FridmanIf you look out far into the future, do you think on this level of physics, the very edge of what we understand about physics, do you think it will make the sexiest discovery of them as we know now, unifying general relativity and quantum mechanics? So coming up with a theory of everything, do you think it could push towards that direction, almost like theoretical physics discoveries?如果你展望遥远的未来，在物理学层面上——在我们对物理学理解的最前沿——你认为它会做出我们现在所知道的最性感的发现吗？比如统一广义相对论和量子力学，提出一个万有理论。你认为它能推动这个方向，几乎是做出理论物理层面的发现吗？
Elon MuskIf an AI cannot figure out new physics, it’s clearly not equal to humans, nor has surpassed humans because humans have figured out new physics. Physics is just deepening what’s inside into how reality works. And then there’s engineering which is inventing things that have never existed. Now the range of possibilities for engineering is far greater than for physics because once you figure out the rules of the universe, that’s it. You’ve discovered things that already existed. But from that you can then build technologies that are really almost limitless in the variety. And it’s like once you understand the rules of the game properly, and with current physics, we do at least at a local level, understand how physics works very well. Our ability to predict things is incredibly good. Degree to which quantum mechanics can predict outcomes is incredible. That was my hardest class in college by the way. My senior quantum mechanics class was harder than all of my other classes put together.如果一个 AI 无法发现新的物理学，那它显然既没有达到人类的水平，也没有超越人类，因为人类已经发现了新的物理学。物理学就是不断深入挖掘现实运作的本质。然后还有工程学，就是发明那些从未存在过的东西。工程学的可能性范围远比物理学大，因为一旦你弄清楚了宇宙的规则，那就是它了，你发现了已经存在的东西。但在此基础上，你可以构建几乎无限多样的技术。这就像一旦你真正理解了游戏规则——以现有的物理学来说，我们至少在局部层面上非常了解物理学是如何运作的，我们预测事物的能力非常强大。量子力学预测结果的精度令人叹为观止。顺便说一句，那是我大学里最难的课，我大四的量子力学课比我其他所有课合在一起还难。
Lex FridmanTo get an AI system, a large language model be as reliable as quantum mechanics and physics is very difficult.要让一个 AI 系统、一个大语言模型，像量子力学和物理学那样可靠，是非常困难的。
Elon MuskYeah. You have to test any conclusions against the ground truth of reality. Reality is the ultimate judge. Like physics is the law, everything else is a recommendation. I’ve seen plenty of people break the laws made by man, but none break the laws made by physics.是的。你必须用现实的真实情况来检验任何结论。现实才是最终的裁判。物理是法律，其他一切都只是建议。我见过很多人违反人类制定的法律，但没有人能违反物理定律。
Lex FridmanIt’s a good test actually. If this LLM understands and matches physics, then you can more reliably trust whatever it thinks about the current state of politics in some sense.这实际上是个不错的测试。如果这个大语言模型理解并匹配物理学，那么你就可以更可靠地相信它对当前政治局势的判断，某种程度上。
Elon MuskAnd it’s also not the case currently that even that its internal logic is not consistent. So especially with the approach of just predicting a token predict token, predict token, it’s like a vector sum. You’re summing up a bunch of vectors, but you can get drift. A little bit of error adds up and by the time you are many tokens down the path, it doesn’t make any sense.而且目前的情况是，即使是它自身的内部逻辑也不是一致的。尤其是用预测下一个 token、再预测下一个 token 这种方式，就像是在做向量求和——你在累加一堆向量，但会产生漂移。一点点误差累积起来，等你走了很多个 token 之后，整件事就完全不合逻辑了。
Lex FridmanSo it has to be somehow self-aware about the drift.所以它必须对自身的漂移有某种自我感知。
Elon MuskIt has to be self-aware about the drift, and then look at the thing as a gestalt as a whole and say it doesn’t have coherence as a whole. When authors write books, they will write the book and then they’ll go and revise it, take into account all the end and the beginning and the middle and rewrite it to achieve coherence so that it doesn’t end up at a nonsensical place.它必须对漂移有自我感知，然后把整体作为一个完整的格式塔来审视，并说：整体缺乏连贯性。作家写书的时候，他们会写完书，然后回过头来修订，把结尾、开头和中间都考虑进去，重新修改，使整体达到连贯性，这样就不会走到一个荒谬的地方。
Lex FridmanMaybe the process of revising is what reasoning is, and then the process of revising is how you get closer and closer to truth. At least I approached that way, you just say a bunch of bullshit first and then you get it better. You start a bullshit and then you-也许修订的过程就是推理，而修订的过程就是你如何越来越接近真相。至少我是这样理解的：你先扯一堆废话，然后越改越好——先从废话开始，然后——
Elon MuskCreate a draft and then you iterate on that draft until it has coherence, until it all adds up basically.写出一个草稿，然后不断迭代，直到它具有连贯性，直到整体都说得通为止。
Lex FridmanAnother question about theory of everything, but for intelligence, as you’re exploring this with XAI, creating this intelligence system? Do you think there is a theory of intelligence where you get to understand what is the I in AGI and what is the I in human intelligence?还有一个关于智能万有理论的问题——在你用 xAI 探索这一切、构建这个智能系统的过程中，你认为存在一套智能的理论吗？让你能够理解 AGI 中"I"（Intelligence，智能）是什么，以及人类智能中"I"是什么？
Elon MuskNo, I in team America. Wait, there is.不，《战狼》里的"I"……等等，有。
Lex FridmanNo, it’s going to be stuck in my head now. Yeah, there’s no me and whatever in quantum mechanics, wait. I mean is that part of the process of discovering, understanding the universe is understanding intelligence?不，现在这首歌要在我脑子里循环了。是的，量子力学里没有"我"，等等……我是说，理解宇宙的过程，是否包括理解智能本身？
Elon MuskYeah. I think we need to understand intelligence, understand consciousness. I mean there are some fundamental questions of what is thought, what is emotion? Is it really just one atom bumping into another atom? It feels like something more than that. So I think we’re probably missing some really big things.是的，我认为我们需要理解智能，理解意识。我是说，思想是什么，情感是什么，这些都是根本性的问题。它真的只是一个原子撞击另一个原子吗？感觉不止如此。所以我认为我们可能遗漏了一些非常重大的东西。
Lex FridmanSomething that’ll be obvious in retrospect. You put the whole consciousness and motion.某些回头看会显而易见的东西。你把整个意识和情感都纳入进去。
Elon MuskWell, some people would quote like a soul religion, be a soul. You feel like you’re you, I mean you don’t feel like you’re just a collection of atoms, but on what dimension does thought exist? What dimension does do emotions exist? Because we feel them very strongly. I suspect there’s more to it than atoms bumping into atoms.嗯，有些人会引用宗教的说法，比如灵魂。你感觉自己就是你，我是说你不觉得自己只是一堆原子的集合，但思想存在于哪个维度？情感存在于哪个维度？因为我们对它们的感受非常强烈。我怀疑这不仅仅是原子碰原子那么简单。
Lex FridmanAnd maybe AI can pave the path to the discovery whatever the hell that thing is.也许 AI 可以铺平通向发现那究竟是什么的道路。
Elon MuskYeah. What is consciousness? When you put the atoms in a particular shape, why are they able to form thoughts and take actions and feelings?是的。意识是什么？当原子被排列成特定的形状时，为什么它们就能形成思想、采取行动、产生感情？
Lex FridmanAnd even if it is an illusion, why is this illusion so compelling?而且就算它是一种幻觉，为什么这种幻觉会如此令人信服？
Elon MuskYeah. Why does the solution exist? On what plane does the solution exist? And sometimes I wonder is either perhaps everything’s conscious or nothing’s conscious. One of the two.是的。为什么这种幻觉会存在？这种幻觉存在于什么层面？有时我想，也许要么一切都是有意识的，要么什么都没有意识，二选一。
Lex FridmanLike the former, everything conscious just seems more fun.前者——一切都有意识——听起来更有趣。
Elon MuskIt does seem more fun, yes. But we’re composed of atoms and those atoms are composed of quarks and leptons and those quarks and leptons have been around since the beginning of the universe.确实更有趣，是的。但我们是由原子构成的，而那些原子又由夸克和轻子构成，那些夸克和轻子从宇宙诞生之初就存在了。
Lex Fridman“The beginning of the universe.”"从宇宙诞生之初。"
Elon MuskWhat seems to be the beginning of the universe.看似是宇宙诞生之初。
Lex FridmanThe first time we talked, you said, which is surreal to think that this discussion was happening is becoming a reality. I asked you what question would you ask an AGI system once you create it? And you said, “What’s outside the simulation,” is the question. Good question. But it seems like with Grok you started literally the system’s goal is to be able to answer such questions and to ask such questions.我们第一次谈话时，你说过——想起来都感觉超现实，因为这场讨论正在成为现实——我问你，一旦创造出一个 AGI 系统，你会问它什么问题。你说你会问："模拟之外是什么？"这是个好问题。但感觉你用 Grok 从字面上开启了一个以回答和提出这类问题为目标的系统。
Elon MuskWhere are the aliens?外星人在哪儿？
Lex FridmanWhere are the aliens?外星人在哪儿？
Elon MuskThat’s one of the foam paradox question. A lot of people have asked me if I’ve seen any evidence of aliens and I haven’t, which is kind of concerning. I think I’d probably prefer to at least have seen some archeological evidence of aliens. To the best of my knowledge, I’m not aware of any evidence surveillance. If they’re out there, they’re very subtle. We might just be the only consciousness, at least in the galaxy. And if you look at say the history of Earth, to believe the archeological record Earth is about four and a half billion years old. Civilization as measured from the first writing is only about 5,000 years old. We have to give some credit there to the ancient Sumerians who aren’t around anymore. I think it was an archaic pre-form was the first actual symbolic representation, but only about 5,000 years ago. I think that’s a good date for when we say civilization started. That’s 1000000th of Earth’s existence.这是费米悖论里的一个大问题。很多人问过我有没有见过任何外星人存在的证据，我没有，这有点令人担忧。我想我至少宁愿看到一些外星人的考古证据。据我所知，我没有意识到任何监视方面的证据。如果他们在那里，他们非常低调。我们也许只是银河系中唯一的意识存在。如果你看看地球的历史，按照考古记录，地球大约有 45 亿年的历史。而文明——以第一次出现文字为衡量标准——只有大约 5,000 年的历史。我们应该为古代苏美尔人点个赞，他们如今已不复存在了。我想最早的书写形式是某种古老的楔形文字前体，是第一种真正的符号表示，但那也只是大约 5,000 年前的事。我认为这是个很好的时间节点，来说文明的开始。这只是地球存在时间的百万分之一。
Elon MuskSo civilization has been around. It’s really a flash in the pan so far. And why did it take so long? Four and a half billion years, for the vast majority of the time, there was no life. And then there was archaic bacteria for a very long time. And then you had mitochondria get captured, multicellular life, differentiation into plants and animals, life moving from the oceans to land, mammals, higher brain functions. And the sun is expanding slowly but it’ll heat the earth up at some point in the future, boil the oceans and earth will become like Venus, where life as we know it is impossible. So if we do not become multiplanetary and ultimately solar system, annihilation of all life on earth is a certainty. A certainty. And it could be as little as on the galactic timescale, half a billion years, long time by human standards, but that’s only 10% longer than earth has been around at all. So if life had taken 10% longer to evolve on earth, it wouldn’t exist at all.所以文明存在的时间……到目前为止只不过是昙花一现。为什么花了这么长时间？45 亿年，在绝大多数时间里根本没有生命。然后是古细菌漫长存续了很久。接着线粒体被捕获，出现了多细胞生命，分化为动植物，生命从海洋转移到陆地，出现了哺乳动物，然后是更高级的大脑功能。而太阳在缓慢膨胀，未来某个时刻它会让地球升温，蒸发海洋，地球会变得像金星一样，那里是我们所知的生命无法生存的地方。所以，如果我们不成为多行星物种，乃至最终扩展到整个太阳系，地球上所有生命的灭绝是必然的。是必然的。从星系的时间尺度来看，也许只需五亿年，这对人类标准来说是很长的时间，但这只比地球存在的总时间长了 10%。所以如果地球上的生命进化再花 10% 的时间，它根本就不会存在。
Lex FridmanGlad a deadline coming up, you better hurry. But that said, as you said, humans intelligent life on earth developed a lot of cool stuff very quickly. So it seems like becoming a multiplanetary is almost inevitable. Unless we destroy-截止日期近在眼前，你最好加紧了。但话说回来，就像你说的，地球上的人类智慧生命在很短的时间内发展出了很多很酷的东西。所以成为多行星物种似乎几乎是不可避免的……除非我们把自己——
Elon MuskWe need to do it. I suspect that if we are able to go out there and explore other star systems that we… There’s a good chance we find a whole bunch of long dead one planet civilizations that never made it past their home planet.我们需要去做这件事。我怀疑，如果我们能出去探索其他恒星系，很有可能会发现一大堆早就灭绝的单行星文明，它们从未走出过自己的母星。
Lex FridmanThat’s so sad. Also fascinating.这太令人悲伤了。同时也令人着迷。
Elon MuskI mean there are various explanations for paradox and one is they’re these great vultures which civilizations don’t pass through. And one of those great vultures is do you become a multi-plan civilization or not? And if you don’t, it’s simply a matter of time before something happens on your planet, either natural or manmade that causes us to die out. Like the dinosaurs, where are they now? They didn’t have spaceships.我是说，费米悖论有各种各样的解释，其中一种是存在巨大的过滤器，文明无法通过它。其中一个巨大的过滤器就是：你是否成为了多行星文明？如果你没有，只是时间问题——你的星球上迟早会发生某些事，无论是自然的还是人为的，导致你的文明消亡。就像恐龙，它们现在在哪儿？它们没有宇宙飞船。
Lex FridmanI think the more likely thing is because just to empathize with the aliens that they found us and they’re protecting us and letting us be.我觉得更可能的情况是——为了和那些外星人产生共情——他们早就发现我们了，但他们在保护我们，让我们自由生长。
Elon MuskI hope so. Nice aliens.我希望如此。善良的外星人。
Lex FridmanJust like the tribes in the Amazon, the uncontacted tribes or protecting them. That’s what-就像亚马逊雨林里那些未接触过文明的部落一样，保护他们。那就是——
Elon MuskThat would be a nice explanation.这倒是个不错的解释。
Lex FridmanOr you could have, what was it? I think Andre Kappelhoff said, “It’s like the ants and the Amazon asking where’s everybody?”或者，是什么来着？我想 Andre Kappelhoff 说过，"这就像亚马逊的蚂蚁在问：大家都去哪儿了？"
Elon MuskWell, they do run into a lot of other ants.嗯，蚂蚁确实会遇到很多其他蚂蚁。
Lex FridmanThat’s true.确实如此。
Elon MuskThese ant wars.那些蚂蚁的战争。
Lex FridmanSounds like a good TV show.听起来像个不错的电视节目题材。
Elon MuskYeah. They literally have these big wars between various ants.是的，各种蚂蚁之间确实会爆发大规模战争。
Lex FridmanYeah. Maybe I’m just dismissing all the different diversity of ants.是的，也许我只是忽视了蚂蚁们的多样性。
Elon MuskListen to that Werner Herzog talking about the jungle. It’s really hilarious. Have you heard it?去听听 Werner Herzog 讲丛林的那段，真的很有意思。你听过吗？
Lex FridmanNo, I have not. But Werner Herzog is a way.没有，没听过。但 Werner Herzog 真的很厉害。
Elon MuskYou should play it as an interlude in the… It’s on YouTube. It’s awesome.你应该在节目里把它作为一段插播放一放，在 YouTube 上能找到，很赞的。
Lex FridmanI love him so much.我太喜欢他了。
Elon MuskHe’s great.他很棒。
Lex FridmanWas he the director of happy people life and the Taiga? I think also-他是不是执导了《泰加林里的快乐人们》？我觉得还有——
Elon MuskHe did that bear documentary. I did this thing about penguins.他拍了那部熊纪录片，还有一部关于企鹅的。
Lex FridmanThe psycho analysis of a penguin.对企鹅进行精神分析的那部。
Elon MuskYeah. The penguins headed for mountains that are 70 miles away and penguin is just headed for dom, basically.是的，那只企鹅径直朝着 70 英里外的山脉走去，基本上是走向毁灭。
Lex FridmanWell, he had a cynical take. He could be just a brave explorer and there’ll be great stories told about him amongst the penguin population for many centuries to come. What were we talking about? Okay.嗯，Herzog 的解读是悲观的——但那也许只是一位勇敢的探险者，在企鹅群里流传了很多个世纪的伟大故事。我们在说什么来着？好吧。
Elon MuskYeah. So aliens, I mean, I don’t know. Look, I think the smart move is just this is the first time in the history of earth that it’s been possible for life to extend beyond earth. That window is open. Now it may be open for a long time or it may be open for a short time and it may be open now and then never open again. So I think the smart move here is to make life multiplanetary while it’s possible to do so. We don’t want to be one of those lame one planet civilizations that just dies out.是的，所以，外星人嘛——我也不知道。听着，我认为聪明的做法就是：这是地球历史上第一次，生命有可能延伸到地球之外。这扇窗口已经打开了。它可能开很长时间，也可能开很短时间，它现在打开了，之后也许再也不会打开。所以我认为聪明的做法是，趁着可能的时候让生命成为多行星。我们不想成为那种灭绝的可悲的单行星文明之一。
Lex FridmanNo, those are lame.不，那些太丢脸了。
Elon MuskYeah. Lame. Self-respecting, civilization would be one planet.是的，太丢脸了。一个有自尊的文明不会只有一个行星。
Lex FridmanThere’s not going to be a Wikipedia entry for one of those. Do SpaceX have an official policy for when we meet aliens?这种文明大概也不会有 Wikipedia 词条。SpaceX 有没有关于我们遇到外星人时的官方政策？
Elon MuskNo.没有。
Lex FridmanThat seems irresponsible.这好像有点不负责任。
Elon MuskI mean, look, if I see the slightest indication that there are aliens, I will immediately post on X platform anything I know.我是说，听着，如果我看到任何哪怕一丝外星人存在的迹象，我会立刻在 X 平台上发布我所知道的一切。
Lex FridmanIt could be the most liked reposted post of all time.那可能是史上获得最多点赞和转发的帖子。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, look, we have more satellites up there right now than everyone else combined. So we know if we’ve got a maneuver around something and we don’t have to maneuver around anything.是的，我是说，我们现在在轨道上的卫星比所有其他人加在一起还多。所以我们很清楚有没有需要绕开的东西，而我们目前不需要绕开任何东西。
Lex FridmanIf we go to the big questions once again, you said you’re with Einstein, that you believe in the goddess Spinoza.再回到那些大问题——你之前说你和爱因斯坦一样，相信斯宾诺莎的上帝。
Elon MuskYes.是的。
Lex FridmanSo that’s that view that God is like the universe and reveals himself through the laws of physics or as Einstein said, “Through the lawful harmony of the world.”也就是那种认为上帝就是宇宙本身，通过物理定律来显现自身的观点——正如爱因斯坦说的，"通过世界的有规律的和谐"。
Elon MuskYeah. I would agree that God of the simulator or whatever the supreme beings reveal themselves through the physics, they have creatives of this existence and incumbent upon us to try to understand more about this one creation.是的，我同意这种说法：无论是模拟的上帝还是某种至高存在，都通过物理法则来显现自身——他们是这个存在的创造者，而我们有责任去尽可能多地理解这个唯一的造物。
Lex FridmanWho created this thing? Who’s running this thing? Embodying it into a singular question with a sexy word on top of it is focusing the mind to understand. It does seem like there’s a, again, it could be an illusion. It seems like there’s a purpose that there’s an underlying master plan of some kind, and it seems like.谁创造了这一切？谁在运行这一切？把它凝聚成一个问题，再加上一个迷人的词语来聚焦思维，去理解它。感觉确实有一种目的感，有某种潜在的宏观计划，感觉就像是……
Elon MuskThere may not be a master plan in the sense. So maybe an interesting answer to the question of determinism versus free will is that if we are in a simulation, the reason that these higher beings would hold a simulation is to see what happens. So they don’t know what happens otherwise they wouldn’t hold the simulation. So when humans create a simulation, so it’s SpaceX and Tesla, we create simulations all the time. Especially for the rocket, you have to run a lot of simulations to understand what’s going to happen because you can’t really test the rocket until it goes to space and you want it to work. So you have to simulate subsonic, transonic, supersonic, hypersonic, ascend, and then coming back, super high heating and orbital dynamics. All this has got to be simulated because you don’t get very many kicks at the can. But we run the simulations to see what happens, not if we knew what happens, we wouldn’t run the simulation. So whoever created this existence, they’re running it because they don’t know what’s going to happen, not because they do.也许并不存在一个宏观计划，就那种意义而言。所以，关于决定论与自由意志的问题，也许有一个有趣的答案：如果我们处于一个模拟之中，那些更高级的存在运行这个模拟的原因，是为了看看会发生什么。所以他们不知道会发生什么，否则他们就不需要运行这个模拟了。比如 SpaceX 和 Tesla 都会创建模拟，我们一直在跑模拟，尤其是火箭，你必须跑大量模拟来理解将要发生什么，因为你在火箭进入太空之前很难真正测试它，而你希望它能正常工作。所以你必须模拟亚音速、跨音速、超音速、高超音速、上升，然后返回、极端热环境和轨道动力学。所有这些都必须模拟，因为你没有太多试错的机会。但我们跑模拟是为了看看会发生什么，不是因为我们已经知道结果了——如果我们知道，就不需要跑了。所以无论谁创造了这个存在，他们运行它是因为他们不知道会发生什么，而不是因为他们知道。
Lex FridmanSo maybe we both played Diablo. Maybe Diablo was created to see if Druid, your character, could defeat Uber Lilith at the end. They didn’t know.所以也许我们俩都玩过《暗黑破坏神》。也许《暗黑破坏神》是被创造出来，看看你的角色德鲁伊能否在最后打败 Uber Lilith。他们不知道结果。
Elon MuskWell, the funny thing is Uber Lilith, her title is Hatred Incarnate. And right now, I guess you can ask the Diablo team, but it’s almost impossible to defeat Hatred in the eternal realm.有意思的是，Uber Lilith 的称号是"仇恨化身"。而目前，不妨去问问《暗黑破坏神》的开发团队——在永久领域击败仇恨几乎是不可能的。
Lex FridmanYeah. You’ve streamed yourself dominating Tier 100 Nightmare Dungeon. And still-是的，你曾直播自己轻松征服 Tier 100 梦魇地牢，而且——
Elon MuskI can cruise through Tier 100 Nightmare Dungeon like a stroll in the park.Tier 100 梦魇地牢我能像散步一样轻松通过。
Lex FridmanAnd still you’re defeated by Hatred?但你还是被仇恨打败了？
Elon MuskYeah. I guess maybe the second hardest boss is Duriel. Duriel can even scratch the paint. So I killed Duriel so many times and every other boss in the game, all of them kill him so many times, it’s easy. But Uber Lilith, otherwise known as Hatred Incarnate, especially if you’re Duriel and you have no ability to go to be vulnerable, there are these random death waves that come at you.是的。我猜第二难的 Boss 是 Duriel，但 Duriel 连我的漆都刮不掉。我把 Duriel 杀了无数次，游戏里所有其他 Boss 也是，全都杀过无数次，轻轻松松。但 Uber Lilith，也就是仇恨化身，尤其是如果你玩德鲁伊而且没有能力让 Boss 进入脆弱状态的话，会有这些随机的死亡波来袭。
Elon MuskReally I am 52, so my reflex is not what they used to be, but I have a lifetime of playing video games. At one point, I was maybe one of the best quake players in the world. I actually won money in what I think was the first paid eSports tournament in the US. We were doing four person quake tournaments and I was the second best person on the team and the actual best person that… We were actually winning, we would’ve come first, except the best person on the team. His computer crashed halfway through the game. So we came second, but I got money for it and everything. So basically I got skills, albeit no spring chicken these days. And to be totally frank, it’s driving me crazy to beat Lilith as a Druid, basically trying to beat Hatred Incarnate in the eternal realm.说真的，我今年 52 岁了，反应速度已经大不如前，但我有一辈子打游戏的经验。有段时间，我可能是世界上最好的《雷神之锤》玩家之一。我实际上在我认为是美国第一届有现金奖励的电竞赛事中赢过钱。我们参加的是四人《雷神之锤》小组赛，我是队里第二强的人，那个真正最强的人……我们本来是在赢的，本来可以拿第一，只是队里最强的那个人电脑在比赛中途崩了。所以我们得了第二，但我也拿到钱了，全程都有。所以基本上我是有真本事的，尽管现在已经不是当年的春鸡了。说实话，德鲁伊在永久领域打 Lilith 这件事快把我逼疯了，就是要在永久领域打败仇恨化身。
Lex FridmanAs a Druid.作为一个德鲁伊。
Elon MuskAs a Druid. This is really vexing, let me tell you.作为一个德鲁伊。这真的很让人抓狂，我跟你说。
Lex FridmanI mean, the challenge is part of the fun. I have seen directly, you’re actually a world-class, incredible video game player. And I think Diablo, so you’re just picking up a new game and you’re figuring out its fundamentals. You’re also with the Paragon Board and the build are not somebody like me who perfectly follows whatever they suggest on the internet. You’re also an innovator there, which is hilarious to watch. It’s like a mad scientist just trying to figure out the Paragon Board and the build. Is there some interesting insights there about if somebody’s starting as a druid, do you have advice?我是说，挑战本身就是乐趣的一部分。我亲眼看到过，你确实是一个世界级、令人难以置信的游戏玩家。我想《暗黑破坏神》你也是新拿起来玩，还在摸索游戏的基础。你在面对传奇面板和构建时，也不是那种照着网上攻略抄的人——你是一个创新者，这看起来真的很搞笑，就像一个疯狂科学家在研究传奇面板和构建。关于德鲁伊的起步，你有什么有趣的见解或建议吗？
Elon MuskI would not recommend playing a druid in the eternal realm. Right now I think the most powerful character in the seasonal realm is the Sorcerer with the lightning balls. The smokes have huge balls in the seasonal.我不建议在永久领域玩德鲁伊。我认为目前赛季领域里最强的职业是法师，用闪电球流。法师在赛季里有超大号的球。
Lex FridmanYeah, that’s what they say.是的，大家都这么说。
Elon MuskSo have huge balls. They do huge balls of lightning.所以要有超大号的球，他们打出巨大的闪电球。
Lex FridmanI’ll take you word for it.我信你。
Elon MuskIn the seasonal realm, it’s pretty easy to beat Uber Lilith because you get these vapor powers that out amplify your damage and increase your defense and whatnot. So really quite easy to defeat Hatred seasonally, but to defeat Hatred eternally very difficult, almost impossible. It’s very impossible. It seems like a metaphor for life.在赛季领域里，打败 Uber Lilith 其实挺容易的，因为你可以获得这些蒸汽动力，可以极大地放大你的伤害、增强你的防御之类的。所以在赛季里打败仇恨相当容易，但要在永久领域打败仇恨就非常困难，几乎不可能。真的就是不可能。这好像是生活的一个隐喻。
Lex FridmanYeah. I like the idea that Elon Musk, because I was playing Diablo yesterday and I saw Level 100 Druid just run by, I will never die and then run back the other way. And this metaphor, it’s hilarious that you, Elon Musk is restlessly, fighting Hatred in this demonic realm.是的。我喜欢这个形象——因为我昨天在玩《暗黑破坏神》，我看到一个 100 级德鲁伊跑过去，"我永远不会死"，然后又跑回来——这个隐喻真的很搞笑，Elon Musk 在这个恶魔领域里不知疲倦地与仇恨战斗。
Elon MuskYes.是的。
Lex FridmanIt’s hilarious. I mean it’s pretty hilarious.真的太搞笑了。我是说确实很搞笑。
Elon MuskNo, it’s absurd. Really, it’s exercise and absurdity and it makes me want to pull my hair out.不，这是荒诞的。真的是荒诞的极致，而且让我想扯掉自己的头发。
Lex FridmanYeah. What do you get from video games in general, for you personally?是的。对你个人来说，你从电子游戏里得到什么？
Elon MuskI don’t know. It calms my mind. I mean, killing the demons in a video game calms the demons in my mind. If you play a tough video game, you can get into a state of flow, which is very enjoyable. Admittedly, it needs to be not too easy, not too hard, kind of in the Goldilocks zone, and I guess you generally want to feel like you’re progressing in the game. A good video, and there’s also beautiful art, engaging storylines, and it’s like an amazing puzzle to solve, I think. So it’s like solving the puzzle.我也说不清楚。它能平静我的内心。在电子游戏里消灭恶魔，能平息我心里的恶魔。玩一款有难度的游戏，你可以进入一种心流状态，非常享受。不过得承认，这需要游戏不能太简单也不能太难，大概处于"刚刚好"的区间，而且你大体上希望感觉自己在游戏里有所进展。一款好的游戏还有精美的美术、引人入胜的故事线，它就像一个令人惊叹的谜题等着你去解开，我认为。所以就是解谜的感觉。
Lex FridmanElden Ring the greatest game of all time. I still haven’t played it, but to you-《艾尔登法环》是史上最伟大的游戏。我还没玩过，但对你来说——
Elon MuskElden Ring is definitely a candidate for best game ever. Top five for sure.《艾尔登法环》绝对是史上最佳游戏的有力候选，至少前五名。
Lex FridmanI think I’ve been scared how hard it is or how hard I hear it is, but it’s beautiful.我一直因为听说它有多难而望而却步，但它确实很美。
Elon MuskElden Ring, feels like it’s designed by an alien.《艾尔登法环》感觉像是由外星人设计的。
Lex FridmanIt’s a theme to this discussion. In what way?这和这次讨论的主题很契合。具体说呢？
Elon MuskIt’s so unusual. It’s incredibly creative, and the art is stunning. I recommend playing it on a big resolution, high dynamic raised TV even. It doesn’t need to be a monitor. Just the art is incredible. It’s so beautiful and it’s so unusual, and each of those top bus battles is unique. It’s a unique puzzle to solve. Each one’s different and the strategy you use to solve one battle is different from another battle.它太不寻常了。它极具创意，而且美术令人叹为观止。我建议在大分辨率、高动态范围的电视上玩，哪怕不是显示器也无所谓。就那美术而言，真的难以置信。它如此美丽，又如此独特，而且每一场顶级 Boss 战都是独一无二的，是独特的谜题需要你去解开。每场战斗都和另一场不同，你用来攻克一场战斗的策略和攻克另一场的策略是不同的。
Lex FridmanThat said, you said Druid, an internal against Uber Lilith is the hardest boss battle you’ve ever…话说回来，你说德鲁伊在永久领域对抗 Uber Lilith 是你玩过的最难的 Boss 战……
Elon MuskCorrect. That is currently the, and I’ve played a lot of video games because that’s my primary recreational activity. And yes, beating Hatred in the internal realm is the hardest bus battle in life. And in the video game. I’m not sure it’s possible, but I do make progress. So then I’m like, ” Okay. I’m making progress. Maybe if I just tweak that paragon board a little more, I can do it could.” Just dodge a few more waves, I could do it.没错。而且我玩过很多电子游戏，因为那是我主要的休闲活动。是的，在永久领域打败仇恨是生活中以及游戏中最难的 Boss 战。我不确定这是否真的可能，但我确实有所进步。所以我就想，好的，我在进步。也许只要再稍微调整一下那个传奇面板，我就能做到。只要再多闪躲几波，我就能做到。
Lex FridmanWell, the simulation is created for the purpose of figuring out if it can be done, and you’re just a cog in the machine of the simulation.嗯，这个模拟的创建就是为了搞清楚这件事能不能做到，而你只是这个模拟机器中的一个齿轮。
Elon MuskYeah, it might be. I have a feeling that at least I think-是的，也许吧。我有一种感觉，至少我认为——
Lex FridmanIt’s doable.这是可以做到的。
Elon MuskIt’s doable. Yes.做得到的，可以。
Lex FridmanWell, that’s the human spirit right there to believe.这就是人类精神的体现——相信它能实现。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, it did prompt me to think about just hate in general, which is you want to be careful of one of those things where you wish for something that sounds good, but if you get it’s actually a dystopian situation. So if you wish for world peace sounds good, but how’d it enforced and at what cost eternal peace? It might actually be worse to have eternal peace because of what that would entail. The suppression of everyone, it might be the suppression of progress. It might be an ossified society that never changes. What I’m saying is that there is an argument that if you wish for no war, you should be careful what you wish for because what’s required in order for there to be no war might be worse than a little war.是啊。不过这让我开始思考仇恨这件事本身——你要当心那种听起来很美好、但真的实现了却可能是反乌托邦的愿望。比如你希望世界和平，听起来很好，但怎么去维系？代价是什么？永恒的和平？它实际上可能比偶尔的战争更糟糕，因为要实现它意味着什么——压制所有人，可能压制进步，可能造就一个永远不变、彻底僵化的社会，最终走向灭亡。我想说的是，如果你希望没有战争，你得小心你的愿望，因为实现无战争所需要的代价，可能比一点点战争更可怕。
Lex FridmanYeah. The things we’ll consider to be flaws of human civilization might be a necessary components for whatever optimal looks like. I mean this, do you worry about AI, AGI enabling a dystopian state of this nature, whether it’s 1984 with surveillance and fear or brave new world with pleasure and what is it? Lots of sex, but no deep human experience.是的。我们眼中人类文明的缺陷，也许恰恰是实现某种最优状态所必需的要素。我想问——你担不担心 AI、AGI 会催生出这种性质的反乌托邦？无论是像《1984》那样充斥监控与恐惧的世界，还是像《美丽新世界》那样以享乐填充生活——大量性爱，却缺乏深刻的人类体验？
Elon MuskThere’s actually a real drug called Soma.现实中确实有一种叫 Soma 的药。
Lex FridmanThere is?真的吗？
Elon MuskYes.对。
Lex FridmanI’m going to take notes.我得记一下。
Elon MuskDoes Gong know about it? No. He probably will go to Brave New World.Grok 知道这个吗？不知道吧。它可能会联想到《美丽新世界》。
Elon MuskWe got to ask it.我们来问问它。
Lex FridmanWhat would be the question?问什么？
Elon MuskTell us about the drug called Soma.告诉我们一种叫 Soma 的药。
Lex FridmanTell us about the drug called Soma. It’s going to go to Brave New World, I think.告诉我们一种叫 Soma 的药。我觉得它会联想到《美丽新世界》。
Elon MuskWell, there’s a real drug as well.不过现实中也有这种药。
Lex FridmanSearching for Soma drug information. Oh boy. Soma, the wonder drug… By the way, I’m in fun mode.正在搜索 Soma 药物信息……哦天哪。Soma，神奇的药……顺便说一句，我现在开的是趣味模式。
Elon MuskOkay, fun. Yeah. So it’s talking about the real drug.好，趣味模式，嗯。所以它说的是真实存在的药。
Lex FridmanIt’s a muscle relaxant that’s been around since the 1950s. It’s used to treat muscle pain and discomfort, and it does this by altering the activity between neurons and the spinal cord. Now, Soma isn’t just a pain reliever, it’s also a bit of a sedative. It can make you feel a bit drowsy. So it’s not something to take if you’re planning on operating, having machinery or trying to solve complex math equations. And it goes on and on. In conclusion, Soma is a drug that can be helpful for those dealing with muscle pain, but it’s not without its risks. That’s pretty good. Wait a minute.这是一种自1950年代就存在的肌肉松弛剂，用于治疗肌肉疼痛和不适，通过改变神经元与脊髓之间的活动来发挥作用。Soma 不只是止痛药，它也有一定的镇静效果，会让你感到有些困倦。所以如果你打算操作机械或者解复杂的数学方程，就不适合服用它。下面还有很多内容……总结来说，Soma 是一种对肌肉疼痛有帮助的药物，但并非没有风险。还不错。等等。
Elon MuskThat’s the real drug it’s talking about.它说的是真实的药。
Lex FridmanIt’s the real drug. And of course the fun is always use it responsibly in accordance with the advice of a healthcare professional. And remember, in the end, the universe is probably just a giant computer simulation, so don’t take anything too seriously. I love it.是真实的药。当然趣味模式最后还不忘加上：请在医疗专业人员的建议下负责任地使用。另外请记住，归根结底，宇宙可能只是一个巨大的计算机模拟，所以别把任何事情太当真。我喜欢这个。
Elon MuskI love it. Yeah.我也喜欢，哈。
Lex FridmanIt also really nicely includes the tweets, posts on X that are relevant to this, which is really cool. That integrates everything together. The interface is one of the really cool things here.它还真的把 X 上与此相关的推文和帖子整合进来了，这很酷。把所有东西融为一体，这个界面是真的很有意思。
Elon MuskYeah. Seems done a great job. You could say no, I mean, Soma from Brave New World, because it thinks you mean, you mean Soma, the real drug. No, I mean Soma from Brave Beer World.是的，Grok 做得不错。你可以说，不对，我说的是《美丽新世界》里的 Soma，因为它以为你说的是现实中的那种药。不，我说的是《美丽新世界》里的 Soma。
Lex FridmanIt’s going to be like, “Oops, I’m really sorry.” I’m really surprised it went to the real drug first. My apologies. I was thinking of the muscle relaxer. Soma for brand New World is a different beast altogether. Now this Huxley dystopian, Soma is a drug that plays a central role in the society depicted in the book. It’s a mood altering hallucinogenic drug that’s used to keep the population docile and content in the novel. To use Soma in Brave New World raises some interesting questions about the nature of happiness and the role of drugs in society, man.它接着说："噢，真抱歉，我刚才想到的是那种肌肉松弛剂。《美丽新世界》里的 Soma 是完全不同的东西。在赫胥黎的反乌托邦里，Soma 是这本书中社会的核心药物，一种能改变情绪的致幻药，用来让人民保持顺从和满足。《美丽新世界》中 Soma 的使用引发了一些关于幸福本质以及药物在社会中所扮演角色的深刻问题。"真的挺好的。
Elon MuskExactly. Is it better to live in a world where everyone is happy all the time, even if that happiness is artificial? It’s good question. This is what I mean. Do you wish for world peace and happiness all the time? Are you sure? Because that might be a society that is essentially sterile and ossified that never changes, that is ultimately doomed.确实。如果每个人都能时刻保持快乐，哪怕这种快乐是人造的，这样的世界是否更好？这是个好问题。这正是我的意思——你真的希望世界和平、时刻幸福吗？你确定吗？因为那可能意味着一个本质上是不育的、僵化的、永远不变的社会，最终注定走向灭亡。
Lex FridmanThis kind of tension between doctors and the light-这种张力就像是光明与黑暗之间——
Elon MuskThis is really a very good summary. It really gets to the point. This is not simply regurgitating a brave new world. It’s actually getting to the salient element of Soma as a drug. Do you actually want to be in a situation where everyone is happy all the time, even though it’s artificial? Or is it better to confront the challenges of life and experience the full range of human emotions, even if it means experiencing pain and suffering? ForGrok 的总结真的很到位，直击要点。它不是在简单地重复《美丽新世界》的情节，而是真正抓住了 Soma 这种药作为象征的核心：你真的想活在一个所有人都时刻快乐、哪怕那种快乐是人造的世界里吗？还是说，正面迎接生活的挑战、体验人类情感的全部幅度——哪怕这意味着要经历痛苦和折磨——才是更好的选择？
Lex FridmanThose listening, by the way, Elon just read directly from Grok, which is a really nice kind of insightful, philosophical analysis of the tension here. Interesting.顺便告诉各位听众，Elon 刚才直接念的是 Grok 的回答，那是一段非常有见地的哲学分析，剖析了这种内在张力，相当有意思。
Elon MuskIt pretty much nails it. In conclusion, Soma from Brave New World is fictional drug that’s used to explore some deep philosophical questions about the nature of happiness and the role of drugs in society. It’s a powerful symbol of the dangers of using drugs to escape from reality and the importance of confronting the challenges of life head on. Nailed it. And the crazy thing is we do have a real drug called Soma, which is like the drug in the book. And I’m like, “They must’ve named it Probably.” Some of the real drug is quite effective on back pain.它基本上说到点子上了。"总之，《美丽新世界》里的 Soma 是一种虚构的药，用来探讨关于幸福本质以及药物在社会中所扮演角色的深刻哲学问题。它是逃避现实的危险象征，也是正面迎接生活挑战之重要性的有力提醒。"说得相当准。而且疯狂的是，现实中真的有一种叫 Soma 的药，和书里的药简直如出一辙。我当时就在想，他们肯定是专门取的这个名字。现实中的 Soma 对背痛确实很有效。
Lex FridmanSo you know about this drug. It’s fascinating所以你了解这种药，有意思。
Elon MuskI’ve taken it because I had a squashed disc in my C5-C6.我用过它，因为我的 C5-C6 椎间盘压迫了。
Lex FridmanSo it takes the physical pain away. But Soma here-所以它能缓解身体上的疼痛。但这里的 Soma——
Elon MuskIt doesn’t completely, it reduces the amount of pain you feel, but at the expense of mental acuity, it dells your mind. Just like the drug in the book.不是完全消除，它只是减轻你感受到的疼痛，但代价是思维变迟钝，它会让你的大脑变钝。就像书里的那种药一样。
Lex FridmanJust like the drug in the book, and hence the trade off. The thing that seems like utopia could be a dystopia after all.就和书里的药一模一样，所以这里就有了一个取舍：看起来像乌托邦的东西，到头来可能是反乌托邦。
Elon MuskYeah. Actually I was towing a friend of mine saying, “Would you really want there to be no hate in the world? Really none?” I wonder why hate evolved. I’m not saying we should have…是啊。其实我在跟一个朋友说，你真的希望这个世界上没有一点仇恨吗？一点都没有？我很好奇仇恨为什么会进化出来。我不是说我们应该——
Elon MuskI wonder why hate evolved. I’m not saying we should amplify hate, of course, I think we should try to minimize it, but none at all. There might be a reason for hate.我很好奇仇恨为什么会进化出来。我不是说我们应该放大仇恨，当然我认为我们应该尽量减少它，但完全没有？也许仇恨的存在是有原因的。
Lex FridmanAnd suffering. It’s really complicated to consider that some amount of human suffering is necessary for human flourishing.还有苦难。要承认某种程度的人类苦难对于人类的蓬勃发展是必要的，这个命题真的很复杂。
Elon MuskIs it possible to appreciate the highs without knowing the lows?不知道低谷，能体会高峰吗？
Lex FridmanAnd that all is summarized there in a single statement from God. Okay.这一切都被 Grok 用一句话总结了。好吧。
Elon MuskNo highs, no lows, who knows?没有高峰，没有低谷，谁知道呢？
Lex Fridman[inaudible 01:10:38]. It seems that training LLMs efficiently is a big focus for xAI. First of all, what’s the limit of what’s possible in terms of efficiency? There’s this terminology of useful productivity per watt. What have you learned from pushing the limits of that?高效训练大语言模型似乎是 xAI 的一个重要关注点。首先，在效率方面，可能性的极限在哪里？有一个说法叫"每瓦特有效算力"。你从突破这个极限的过程中学到了什么？
Elon MuskWell, I think it’s helpful, the tools of physics are very powerful and can be applied I think to really any arena in life. It’s really just critical thinking. For something important you need to reason with from first principles and think about things in the limit one direction or the other. So in the limit, even at the Kardashev scale, meaning even if you harness the entire power of the sun, you’ll still care about useful compute per watt. That’s where I think, probably where things are headed from the standpoint of AI is that we have a silicon shortage now that will transition to a voltage transformer shortage in about a year. Ironically, transformers for transformers. You need transformers to run transformers.我觉得物理学的工具非常强大，可以应用于生活中几乎任何领域，其实就是批判性思维。对于重要的事情，你需要从第一性原理出发，从各个极限方向去思考。比如在 Kardashev 尺度的极端情况下——哪怕你能利用整颗太阳的能量——你仍然会在乎每瓦特的有效算力。我认为 AI 的发展大概就是朝这个方向走的。我们现在面临硅芯片短缺，大概一年后会转变为变压器短缺。讽刺的是，要运行 transformer 模型，你需要变压器（电力变压器）。
Lex FridmanSomebody has a sense of humor in this thing.命运这东西挺有幽默感的。
Elon MuskI think, yes, fate loves irony, ironic humor, an ironically funny outcome seems to be often what fate wants.我觉得是的，命运喜欢反讽，喜欢那种讽刺性的幽默——讽刺性的结果似乎往往就是命运想要的。
Lex FridmanHumor is all you need. I think spice is all you need somebody posted.幽默才是你所需要的一切。我看到有人发帖说"香料才是一切"。
Elon MuskYeah. But yeah, so we have silicon shortage today, a voltage step down transformer shortage probably in about a year, and then just electricity shortages in general in about two years. I gave a speech for the world gathering of utility companies, electricity companies, and I said, look, you really need to prepare for traveling of electricity demand because all transport is going to go electric with the ironic exception of rockets, and heating will also go electric. So energy usage right now is roughly one third, very rough terms, one third electricity, one third transport, one third heating. And so in order for everything to go sustainable, to go electric, you need to triple electricity output. So I encourage the utilities to build more power of plants and also to probably have, well, not probably, they should definitely buy more batteries because the grid currently is sized for realtime load, which is kind of crazy because that means you’ve got to size for whatever the peak electricity demand is, the worst second or the worst day of the year, or you can have a brown out or blackout.是的。所以我们现在面临硅芯片短缺，大概一年后会出现降压变压器短缺，然后大约两年后是全面的电力短缺。我在全球电力公司峰会上发表演讲，我说，你们真的需要为电力需求的翻倍做好准备，因为所有交通运输都将电气化——火箭是个例外，这也挺讽刺的——供暖也将电气化。所以目前能源消耗大致是三等分：三分之一是电力，三分之一是交通，三分之一是供暖。要实现全面可持续、全面电气化，你需要将电力产出提高三倍。所以我鼓励这些电力公司多建发电厂，而且也许——其实不是也许，是一定——要多配置电池，因为电网目前是按实时负荷来设计的，这有点疯狂，意味着你必须按全年最高峰那一秒钟的需求来设计电网容量，否则就会出现限电或停电。
Elon MuskWe had that crazy blackout for several days in Austin because there’s almost no buffering of energy in the grid. If you’ve got a hydropower plant you can buffer energy, but otherwise it’s all real time. So with batteries, you can produce energy at night and use it during the day so you can buffer. So I expect that there will be very heavy usage of batteries in the future because the peak to trough ratio for power plants is anywhere from two to five, so its lowest point to highest point.奥斯汀之前那次奇葩大停电持续了好几天，就是因为电网里几乎没有任何能量缓冲。如果你有水电站可以储能，那还好，但其他情况下全都是实时的。有了电池，你可以在夜间发电、白天使用，起到缓冲的作用。所以我预计未来电池会被大量应用，因为发电站的峰谷比在 2 到 5 倍之间，也就是最低点到最高点的差距。
Lex FridmanSo batteries necessary to balance it out, but the demand, as you’re saying, is going to grow, grow, grow, grow.所以电池是平衡供需的必要手段，但正如你所说，需求会一直增长、增长、再增长。
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Lex FridmanAnd part of that is the compute?其中一部分是因为算力的需求？
Elon MuskYes. Yes. I mean, electrification of transport and electric heating will be much bigger than AI, at least-是的，是的。我的意思是，交通电气化和电力供暖的用电需求会远大于 AI，至少——
Lex FridmanIn the short term.在短期内。
Elon MuskIn the short term. But even for AI, you really have a growing demand for electricity, for electric vehicles, and a growing demand for electricity to run the computers for AI. And so this is obviously, can lead to electricity shortage.在短期内是这样。但即使对 AI 来说，电动汽车带来的电力需求在不断增长，运行 AI 计算机的电力需求也在不断增长。这显然可能导致电力短缺。
Lex FridmanHow difficult is the problem of, in this particular case, maximizing the useful productivity per watt for training and that’s, this seems to be really where the big problem we’re facing that needs to be solved, is how to use the power efficiently. What you’ve learned so far about applying this physics first principle of reasoning in this domain, how difficult is this problem?在这个具体问题上——最大化训练阶段的每瓦特有效算力——这似乎才是我们真正需要解决的核心难题，即如何高效用电。你迄今从把物理学第一性原理应用到这个领域的过程中学到了什么？这个问题有多难？
Elon MuskIt will get solved. It’s the question of how long it takes to solve it. So at various points, there’s some kind of limiting factor to progress and with regard to AI, I’m saying right now the limiting factor is silicon chips and that will, we’re going to then have more chips than we can actually plug in and turn on probably in about a year. The initial constraint being literally voltage step down transformers because you’ve got power coming in at 300,000 volts and it’s got to step all the way down eventually to around 0.7 volts. So it’s a very big amount of, the voltage step down is gigantic and the industry is not used to rapid growth.这个问题会被解决，只是时间长短的问题。在 AI 发展的不同阶段，总会出现某种限制因素。就现在而言，限制因素是硅芯片，但大约一年后，我们的芯片数量将会超过我们实际能插上、能开机的数量。首要的瓶颈就是降压变压器——电力进来是 300,000 伏，最终要一路降到大约 0.7 伏。这是一个极其巨大的降压幅度，而整个行业还没有习惯如此快速的增长。
Lex FridmanOkay. Let’s talk about the competition here. You’ve shown concern about Google and Microsoft with OpenAI developing AGI. How can you help ensure with xAI and Tesla AI work that it doesn’t become a competitive race to AGI, but that is a collaborative development of safe AGI?好，我们来谈谈竞争格局。你表达过对 Google 和微软联手 OpenAI 开发 AGI 的担忧。你如何确保通过 xAI 和 Tesla AI 的工作，让这场竞赛不变成一场 AGI 军备竞赛，而是朝着安全 AGI 的方向协同推进？
Elon MuskWell, I mean I’ve been pushing for some kind of regulatory oversight for a long time. I’ve been somewhat of a Cassandra on the subject for over a decade. I think we want to be very careful in how we develop AI. It’s a great power and with great power comes great responsibility. I think it would be wise for us to have at least an objective third party who can be like a referee that can go in and understand what the various leading players are doing with AI, and even if there’s no enforcement ability, they can at least voice concerns publicly. Jeff Hinton, for example, left Google and he voiced strong concerns, but now he’s not at Google anymore, so who’s going to voice the concerns? So I think there’s, Tesla gets a lot of regulatory oversight on the automotive front. We’re subject to, I think over a hundred regulatory agencies domestically and internationally. It’s a lot. You could fill this room with the all regulations that Tesla has to adhere to for automotive. Same is true for rockets and for, currently, the limiting factor for SpaceX for Starship launch is regulatory approval.我的意思是，我已经推动某种形式的监管审查很长时间了，在这件事上我某种程度上是个悲观先知，已经超过十年了。我认为我们需要非常谨慎地推进 AI 开发，这是一种强大的力量，能力越大责任越大。我认为明智的做法是，至少要有一个客观的第三方充当裁判，能够深入了解各主要参与者在 AI 方面的动向，即便没有执法权，也能公开发声。比如 Jeff Hinton 离开 Google 之后发出了强烈的警告，但他现在已经不在 Google 了，谁来发声？我认为——Tesla 在汽车领域受到了大量监管审查，我们在国内和国际上受到的监管机构超过一百个，数量相当可观，Tesla 需要遵守的汽车法规摞起来能填满这个房间。火箭也是如此，目前制约 SpaceX Starship 发射的最大因素，就是监管审批。
Elon MuskThe FAA has actually given their approval, but we’re waiting for fish and wildlife to finish their analysis and give their approval. That’s why I posted I want to buy a fish license on, which also refers to the Monte Python sketch. Why do you need a license for your fish? I don’t know. But according to the rules, I’m told you need some sort of fish license or something. We effectively need a fish license to launch a rocket. And I’m like, wait a second. How did the fish come into this picture? I mean, some of the things I feel like are so absurd that I want to do a comedy sketch and flash at the bottom. This is all real. This is actually what happened.FAA 已经批了，但我们还在等鱼类和野生动物管理局完成他们的评估并给出批准。这就是为什么我在推上说我想买一张鱼类许可证——这也指的是《蒙提·派森》里的那个 sketch，"为什么你需要给鱼申请许可证？"我不知道，但据告知我们需要某种鱼类许可证之类的东西。我们等于说需要一张鱼类许可证才能发射火箭。我当时就想，等一下，鱼是怎么扯进来的？有些事我觉得荒诞到极点，我真想拍一个喜剧 sketch，然后在底部打字幕："以上内容均属实，这是真实发生的事。"
Elon MuskOne of the things that was a bit of a challenge at one point is that they were worried about a rocket hitting a shark. And the ocean’s very big, and how often do you see sharks? Not that often. As a percentage of ocean surface area, sharks basically are zero. And so then we said, well, how will we calculate the probability of killing a shark? And they’re like, well, we can’t give you that information because they’re worried about shark fin hunters going and hunting sharks and I said, well, how are we supposed to, we’re on the horns of a dilemma then.有一度，他们担心火箭会击中鲨鱼。海洋非常大，你多久能看到一条鲨鱼？不常见吧。以海洋面积的百分比来算，鲨鱼的占比基本上是零。于是我们说，那我们怎么计算击中鲨鱼的概率呢？他们说，这个数据我们不能给你，因为他们担心鲨鱼鳍猎人会去猎杀鲨鱼。我说，那我们怎么办，这不是进退两难吗？
Elon MuskThey said, well, there’s another part of fish and wildlife that can do this analysis. I’m like, well, why don’t you give them the data? We don’t trust them. Excuse me? They’re literally in your department. Again, this is actually what happened. And then can you do an NDA or something? Eventually they managed to solve the internal quandary, and indeed the probability of us hitting a shark is essentially zero. Then there’s another organization that I didn’t realize existed until a few months ago that cares about whether we would potentially hit a whale in international waters. Now, again, you look the surface, look at the Pacific and say what percentage of the Pacific consists of whale? I could give you a big picture and point out all the whales in this picture. I’m like, I don’t see any whales. It’s basically 0%, and if our rocket does hit a whale, which is extremely unlikely beyond all belief, fate had it, that’s a whale has some seriously bad luck, least lucky whale ever.他们说，我们部门还有另一个小组可以做这个分析。我说，那你们把数据给他们不就行了？他们说：我们不信任他们。什么？他们就在你们部门里啊。这些真的是实际发生的事。后来你们能签个保密协议之类的吗？最终他们解决了内部的这个难题，鉴定结论是：我们击中鲨鱼的概率基本上是零。然后还有另一个我几个月前才知道存在的机构，负责评估我们是否可能在国际水域击中鲸鱼。同样，你看着太平洋说，太平洋有百分之几是鲸鱼？我给你一张卫星大图，让你指出所有的鲸鱼在哪，你会发现——我没看到任何鲸鱼。基本上是0%。而且就算我们的火箭真的击中了鲸鱼，这概率超乎想象地低，那只能说命运如此安排，这条鲸鱼运气奇差，堪称史上最倒霉的鲸鱼了。
Lex FridmanI mean this is quite absurd, the bureaucracy of this, however it emerged.这种官僚主义确实挺荒诞的，不管它是怎么演变成这样的。
Elon MuskYes. Well, I mean one of the things that’s pretty wild is for launching out of Vanderberg in California, we had to, they were worried about seal procreation, whether the seals would be dismayed by the sonic booms. Now, there’ve been a lot of rockets launched out of Vandenberg and the seal population has steadily increased. So if anything, rocket booms are an aphrodisiac, based on the evidence, if you were to correlate rocket launches with seal population. Nonetheless, we were forced to kidnap a seal, strap it to a board, put headphones on the seal and play sonic boom sounds to it to see if it would be distressed. This is an actual thing that happened. This is actually real. I have pictures.是啊。有一件事相当惊人：在加利福尼亚州的范登堡基地发射，他们担心海豹的繁殖活动，担心超音速音爆会让海豹感到不安。但从范登堡发射的火箭已经很多了，海豹种群数量一直在稳步增加。所以如果有什么相关性的话——从火箭发射次数与海豹数量的关联来看——音爆简直就是春药。尽管如此，我们还是被迫去抓了一只海豹，把它绑到一块板上，给它戴上耳机，播放音爆声音，看它会不会感到痛苦。这是真实发生的事，我有照片为证。
Lex FridmanI would love to see this. Yeah. Sorry. There’s a seal with headphones.我很想看看。对不起，那个……一只戴着耳机的海豹？
Elon MuskYes, it’s a seal with headphones strapped to a board. Okay. Now the amazing part is how calm the seal was because if I was a seal, I’d be like, this is the end. They’re definitely going to eat me. How old the seal, when seal goes back to other seal friends, how’s he going to explain that?是的，一只被绑在板子上戴着耳机的海豹。神奇的是这只海豹当时出奇地冷静，因为如果我是海豹，我会想：这下完了，他们肯定要把我吃掉了。等这只海豹回去跟它的海豹朋友们说这段经历，它要怎么解释？
Lex FridmanThey’re never going to believe them.它们永远不会相信它。
Elon MuskNever going to believe him. That’s why, I’m like sort of like it’s getting kidnapped by aliens and getting anal probed. You come back and say, I swear to God, I got kidnapped by aliens and they stuck anal probe in my butt and people are like, no, they didn’t. That’s ridiculous. His seal buddies are never going to believe him that he got strapped to aboard and they put headphones on his ears and then let him go. Twice, by the way, we had to do it twice.永远不会相信它。这就好像被外星人绑架然后被肛探，你回来说"我发誓，我被外星人绑架了，他们把探针插进了我的屁股"，大家都觉得"不可能，太荒唐了"。这只海豹的伙伴们永远不会相信它被绑在一块板上戴上耳机然后被放走了。而且顺便说一句，我们做了两次。
Lex FridmanThey let him go twice.他们放走它两次？
Elon MuskWe had to capture-我们抓了——
Lex FridmanThe same seal?是同一只海豹吗？
Elon MuskNo different seal.不，是不同的海豹。
Lex FridmanOkay. Did you get a seal of approval?好的。你们拿到海豹认证了吗？
Elon MuskExactly. Seal of approval. No, I mean I don’t think the public is quite aware of the madness that goes on.哈，"seal of approval（海豹盖章/认证）"。我觉得公众并不太了解这背后有多疯狂。
Lex FridmanYeah. Yeah. It’s absurd.确实，太荒谬了。
Elon MuskFricking seals with fricking headphones.该死的海豹戴着该死的耳机。
Lex FridmanI mean, this is a good encapsulation of the absurdity of human civilization, seals in headphones.这真是人类文明荒诞性的绝佳缩影——戴耳机的海豹。
Elon MuskYes.是的。
Lex FridmanWhat are the pros and cons of open sourcing AI to you as another way to combat a company running away with AGI?在你看来，开源 AI 的利弊是什么——这是另一种防止某家公司垄断 AGI 的方式？
Elon MuskIn order to run really deep intelligence, you need a lot of compute. So it’s not like you can just fire up a PC in your basement and be running AGI, at least not yet. Grok was trained on 8,000 A100’s running at peak efficiency and Grok’s going to get a lot better, by the way, we will be more than doubling our compute every couple months for the next several months.要运行真正的深度智能，你需要大量算力。所以你不能只是在家里的地下室启动一台 PC 就跑起 AGI——至少现在还不行。Grok 是在 8,000 块 A100 以峰值效率运行的情况下训练出来的，而且 Grok 会变得好得多——顺便说一句，未来几个月内，我们的算力每隔几个月就会翻一倍以上。
Lex FridmanThere’s a nice writeup, on how we went from Grok zero to Grok one.有一篇不错的文章，介绍了我们是怎么从 Grok zero 走到 Grok one 的。
Elon MuskBy Grok?是 Grok 自己写的？
Lex FridmanYeah, right, grok just bragging, making shit up about itself.对，就是 Grok 自吹自擂，对自己胡编一通。
Elon MuskJust Grok, Grok, Grok.就是 Grok、Grok、Grok。
Lex FridmanYeah. That’s like a weird AI dating site where it exaggerates about itself. No, there’s a writeup of where it stands now, the history of its development, and where it stands on some benchmarks compared to the state-of-the art GPT-3 five. And so I mean, there’s [inaudible 01:24:37], you can open source, once it’s trained, you can open source a model. For fine-tuning, all that kind of stuff. What to is the pros and cons of that, of open sourcing base models?是啊，就像一个奇怪的 AI 相亲网站，在上面夸大自己的条件。不，那是一篇真实的文章，介绍了它目前的状况、发展历史，以及它在一些基准测试上与最新技术水平 GPT-3.5 的对比。所以嗯，开源——你可以在模型训练完成后对其开源，做微调之类的事情。开源基础模型的利与弊是什么？
Elon MuskI think the [inaudible 01:24:53] to open sourcing, I think perhaps with a slight time delay, I don’t know, six months even. I think I’m generally in favor of open sourcing, biased towards open sourcing. I mean, it is a concern to me that OpenAI, I was I think, I guess oddly the prime mover behind OpenAI in the sense that it was created because of discussions that I had with Larry Page back when he and I were friends and I stayed at his house and I talked to him about AI safety, and Larry did not care about AI safety, or at least at the time he didn’t. And at one point he called me a speciesist for being pro-human, and I’m like, well, what team are you on, Larry? He’s still on Team Robot to be clear. And I’m like, okay. So at the time Google had acquired DeepMind, they had probably two thirds of all AI researchers in the world. They had basically infinite money and compute, and the guy in charge, Larry Page, did not care about safety and even yelled at me and caught me a speciesist for being pro-human.我认为开源是可行的——也许带一点时间延迟，比如六个月。总体来说我倾向于开源，偏向开源。OpenAI 这件事让我感到担忧：我大概是推动创建 OpenAI 的最初驱动力——它的成立源于我与 Larry Page 的讨论，那时我们还是朋友，我在他家住过，跟他谈过 AI 安全，而 Larry 完全不在意 AI 安全，至少当时不在乎。有一次他甚至叫我"物种主义者"，因为我支持人类，我说，Larry，你究竟站哪队？他现在显然是 Team Robot 的，这一点很清楚。而当时，Google 已经收购了 DeepMind，拥有全球大概三分之二的 AI 研究者，有几乎无限的资金和算力，而掌舵者 Larry Page 对安全完全不在乎，甚至因为我支持人类而冲我发火、叫我"物种主义者"。
Lex FridmanSo I don’t know if you notice about humans, they can change their mind and maybe you and Larry Page can still, can be friends once more.我不知道你有没有注意到，人是会改变的，也许你和 Larry Page 还能重归于好。
Elon MuskI’d like to be friends with Larry again. Really the breaking of the friendship was over OpenAI and specifically I think the key moment was recruiting Ilya Sutskever.我想和 Larry 重修旧好。他们真正决裂的导火索是 OpenAI，具体说是在招募 Ilya Sutskever 这件事上。
Lex FridmanI love Ilya. He’s so brilliant.我很喜欢 Ilya，他真的很厉害。
Elon MuskIlya is a good human, smart, good heart, and that was a tough recruiting battle. It was mostly Demis on one side and me on the other, both trying to recruit Ilya, and Ilya went back and forth, he was going to stay at Google, he was going to leave, then he was going to stay, then he’ll leave. And finally he did agree to join OpenAI. That was one of the toughest recruiting battles we’ve ever had. But that was really the linchpin for OpenAI being successful. And I was also instrumental in recruiting a number of other people, and I provided all of the funding in the beginning, over $40 million. And the name, the open in open AI is supposed to mean open source, and it was created as a nonprofit open source, and now it is a closed source for maximum profit, which I think is not good karma.Ilya 是个好人，聪明，心地也好。那是一场艰难的招募战，主要是 Demis 站一边，我站另一边，两方都在争取 Ilya。Ilya 来回摇摆——本来要留在 Google，后来说要走，又说要留，再后来又说要走。最终他确实同意加入 OpenAI。那是我参与过的最艰难的招募战之一。但那真的是 OpenAI 成功的关键。我也参与招募了许多其他人，最初的资金全都是我提供的，超过 4,000 万美元。"OpenAI"里的"Open"本来应该代表开源，它最初就是作为一个非营利的开源组织创立的，现在却成了闭源逐利的商业公司，我认为这很不好。
Lex FridmanBut like we talked about with war and leaders talking, I do hope that, there’s only a few folks working on this at the highest level. I do hope you reinvigorate friendships here.但就像我们谈到战争和领导人之间的对话一样，这个领域顶尖的人本来就没几个，我希望你们能重拾这些友谊。
Elon MuskLike I said, I’d like to be friends again with Larry. I haven’t seen him in ages and we were friends for a very long time. I met Larry Page before he got funding for Google, or actually I guess before he got venture funding, I think he got the first like $100k from I think Bechtel Zeimer or someone.就像我说的，我想和 Larry 重新成为朋友。好久没见他了，我们曾是多年的好友。我认识 Larry Page 的时候，Google 还没有拿到融资——或者说还没拿到风险投资，我记得最初那笔大概 10 万美元是来自 Bechtel Zeimer 还是某人。
Lex FridmanIt’s wild to think about all that happened, and you guys known each other that whole time, it’s 20 years.想到这一切发生的时间跨度，你们相识这么久，都快 20 年了，真是不可思议。
Elon MuskYeah, since maybe 98 or something.对，大概从98年左右开始。
Lex FridmanYeah, it’s crazy. Crazy how much has happened since then.是啊，太疯狂了。从那以后发生了多少事。
Elon MuskYeah, 25 years, a lot has happened. It’s insane.是啊，25 年，发生了太多太多事了，真是疯狂。
Lex FridmanBut you’re seeing the tension there that maybe delayed open source.但你也看到了那种张力，所以也许可以延迟开源。
Elon MuskDelayed, yeah, like what is the source that is open? You know what I mean? There’s basically, it’s a giant CSB file with a bunch of numbers. What do you do with that giant file of numbers? How do you run, the amount of actual, the lines of code is very small and most of the work, the software work is in the curation of the data. So it’s like trying to figure out what data is, separating good data from bad data. You can’t just crawl the internet because theres a lot of junk out there. A huge percentage of websites have more noise than signal because they’re just used for search engine optimization. They’re literally just scam websites.延迟，是的，那么什么是"开放的源"呢？本质上就是一个巨大的 CSV 文件，里面全是数字。你拿这个巨大的数字文件能做什么？实际上代码行数非常少，大部分的软件工作在于数据的筛选整理，也就是分辨哪些数据是好的、哪些是坏的。你不能直接爬全网，因为网上有很多垃圾，大量网站噪音远多于信号，它们就是为搜索引擎优化存在的，实际上就是些垃圾网站。
Lex FridmanHow do you, by the way, sorry to interrupt, get the signal, separate the signal and noise on X? That’s such a fascinating source of data. No offense to people posting on X, but sometimes there’s a little bit of noise.顺便问一下，怎么从 X 上提取有价值的信号、区分信号与噪音？那是一个非常有趣的数据来源。无冒犯 X 上发帖的人，但有时候噪音确实不少。
Elon MuskI think the signal noise could be greatly improved. Really, all of the posts on the X platform should be AI recommended, meaning we should populate a vector space around any given post, compare that to the vector space around any user and match the two. Right now there is a little bit of AI used for the recommended posts, but it’s mostly heuristics. And if there’s a reply where the reply to a post could be much better than the original post, but will, according to the current rules of the system, get almost no attention compared to a primary post.我认为信噪比是可以大大提升的。实际上，X 平台上的所有帖子都应该由 AI 来推荐——也就是说，应该在任何给定帖子周围构建一个向量空间，与用户的向量空间进行比对和匹配。目前推荐帖子里已经用了一点 AI，但大部分还是依赖启发式规则。而且按照现有系统的规则，如果一条回复比原帖精彩得多，它获得的曝光仍然会远低于原帖。
Lex FridmanSo a lot of that, I got the sense, so a lot of the X algorithm has been open sourced and been written up about, and it seems there to be some machine learning. It’s disparate, but there’s some machine.我的感觉是，X 的算法已经开源了，也有相关文章写过，里面确实有一些机器学习，虽然比较分散，但有一些机器学习的成分。
Elon MuskIt’s a little bit, but it needs to be entirely that. At least, if you explicitly follow someone, that’s one thing. But in terms of what is recommended from people that you don’t follow, that should all be AI.有一点，但应该完全是这样。如果你明确关注了某人，那是另一回事。但在向你推荐你不关注的人的内容方面，那应该全部由 AI 来决定。
Lex FridmanI mean it’s a fascinating problem. So there’s several aspects of it that’s fascinating. First, as the write-up goes, it first picks 1500 tweets from a pool of hundreds of millions. First of all, that’s fascinating. You have hundreds of millions of posts every single day, and it has to pick 1500 from which it then does obviously people you follow, but then there’s also some kind of clustering it has to do to figure out what kind of human are you, what kind of new clusters might be relevant to you, people like you. This kind of problem is just fascinating because it has to then rank those 1500 with some filtering and then recommend you just a handful.这是个很有意思的问题，有好几个层面都很迷人。首先，正如那篇文章所写，它要先从数亿条帖子中筛选出 1500 条。单是这一点就很神奇——每天有数亿条帖子，要从中挑出 1500 条。当然有你关注的人的帖子，但还要进行某种聚类来判断你是什么类型的人、哪些新的聚类可能与你相关、哪些人与你相似。这本身就是个迷人的问题，然后还要对这 1500 条进行过滤排序，最终推荐给你寥寥几条。
Lex FridmanAnd to me, what’s really fascinating is how fast it has to do that. So currently that entire pipeline to go from several hundred million to a handful takes 220 seconds of CPU time, single CPU time, and then it has to do that in a second. So it has to be super distributed in fascinating ways. There’s just a lot of tweets, there’s a lot.而我觉得真正精彩的是速度要求。目前，从数亿条缩减到少数几条，整个流程需要 220 秒的 CPU 时间，单核的，而且必须在一秒内完成。所以必须极度分布式，方式非常讲究。帖子实在太多太多了。
Elon MuskThere’s a lot of stuff on the system, but I think, right now it’s not currently good at recommending things from accounts you don’t follow or where there’s more than one degree of separation. So it is pretty good if there’s at least some commonality between someone you follow liked something or reposted it or commented on it or something like that. But if there’s no, let’s say somebody posts something really interesting, but you have no followers in common, you would not see it.系统里的内容确实非常多，但我认为，目前它不太擅长推荐你不关注的账号，或者超过一度分隔的内容。如果你关注的人点了赞、转发或者评论了什么，它还算不错。但如果完全没有关联——比如某人发了一条很有意思的帖子，但你们之间没有任何共同关注的人——你就不会看到它。
Lex FridmanInteresting. And then as you said, replies might not surface either.有意思，而且正如你所说，回复也可能不会浮出来。
Elon MuskReplies basically never get seen currently. I’m not saying it’s correct, I’m saying it’s incorrect. Replies have a couple order magnitude less importance than primary posts.回复基本上永远不会被看到——我不是说应该这样，我是说现实就是这样，这是错的。回复的权重比原帖少几个数量级。
Lex FridmanDo you think this can be more and more converted into end to end mural net?你觉得这能越来越多地转向端到端神经网络吗？
Elon MuskYeah. Yeah, that’s what it should be. Well, the recommendations should be purely a vector correlation. There’s a series of vectors basically parameters, vectors, whatever you want to call them, but sort of things that the system knows that you like. Maybe there’s several hundred vectors associated with each user account and then any post in the system, whether it’s video, audio, short post, long post. The reason by the way I want to move away from tweet is that people are posting two, three hour videos on the site. That’s not a tweet.对，应该就是这样。推荐应该完全基于向量相关性。系统里有一系列向量——基本上是参数、向量，随便叫什么——代表了系统知道你喜欢什么。每个用户账号可能对应几百个向量，而系统里的任何一条帖子，无论是视频、音频、短帖还是长文。顺便说一句，我之所以想放弃"tweet"这个词，是因为现在有人在平台上发两三个小时的视频，那不叫"tweet"。
Elon MuskIt’d be like tweet for two hours? Come on. Tweet made sense when it was 140 characters of text. Because it’s like a bunch of little birds tweeting. But when you’ve got long form content, it’s no longer a tweet. So a movie is not a tweet. Apple, for example, posted the entire episode of The Silo, the entire thing, on a platform. By the way, it was their number one social media thing ever in engagement of anything, on any platform ever. So it was a great idea. And by the way, I just learned about it afterwards. I was like, Hey, wow, they posted an entire hour long episode of, so no, that’s not a tweet. This is a video.说"发推"两个小时？得了吧。"Tweet"在140个字符的文本时代是合理的，就像一群小鸟在叽叽喳喳。但当你有了长篇内容，那就不再是一条 tweet 了。一部电影不是 tweet。比如 Apple 把《Silo》的整集剧集——整整一集——发布在了这个平台上。顺便说一句，那是他们在任何平台上有史以来互动量最高的社交媒体内容，没有之一。所以这是个好主意。而且顺便说一句，我事后才知道这件事，我说，哇，他们发了整整一小时的——所以不，那不是 tweet，那是一个视频。
Lex FridmanBut from a neural net perspective, it becomes really complex, whether it’s a single, so everything’s data. So single sentence, a clever sort of joke, dad joke is in the same pool as a three hour video.但从神经网络的角度来看，这会变得非常复杂——无论是什么，所有数据都放在一起。一条聪明的冷笑话和一段三小时的视频在同一个数据池里。
Elon MuskYeah, I mean right now it’s a hodgepodge for that reason. Let’s say in the case of Apple posting an entire episode of this series, pretty good series, by the way, The Silo, I watched it. So there’s going to be a lot of discussion around it. So you’ve got a lot of context, people commenting, they like it, they don’t like it or they like this, and you can then populate the vector space based on the context of all the comments around it. So even though it’s a video, there’s a lot of information around it that allows you to populate back to space of that hour long video. And then you can obviously get more sophisticated by having the AI actually watch the movie and tell you if you’re going to like the movie.是的，现在正是因为这个原因有点大杂烩。拿 Apple 发整集剧集这个例子来说——顺便一说，《Silo》是部不错的剧，我看了——周围会有大量讨论。人们在评论，喜欢的，不喜欢的，喜欢这个情节，然后你可以根据所有评论的语境来填充那部剧的向量空间。所以即便是一段视频，围绕它的大量信息也能让你建构出那段一小时视频的向量空间。然后当然你还可以更进一步，让 AI 真的去"看"这部电影，告诉你你会不会喜欢它。
Lex FridmanConvert the movie into language, essentially.本质上就是把电影转换成语言。
Elon MuskAnalyze this movie and just like your movie critic or TV series and then recommend based on after AI watches the movie, just like a friend can tell you, if a friend knows you well, a friend can recommend a movie with high probability that you’ll like it.分析这部电影——就像你信任的影评人或电视剧评论员一样——然后在 AI"看过"这部电影之后给出推荐。就像一个了解你的朋友，能以很高的概率推荐你会喜欢的电影。
Lex FridmanBut this is a friend that’s analyzing, whatever, hundreds of millions.但这个"朋友"分析的内容有数亿条之多。
Elon MuskYeah, actually, frankly, AI will be better than, will know you better than your friends know you, most of your friends anyway.是的，说实话，AI 会比你的大多数朋友更了解你。
Lex FridmanYeah. And as part of this, it should also feed you advertisements in a way that’s like, I mean, I like advertisements that are well done. The whole point is because it funds things. Like an advertisement that you actually want to see is a big success.是的。而且在这个过程中，它还应该以一种让人接受的方式推送广告——我是说，我并不排斥制作精良的广告。广告的意义在于它为内容提供资金。一条你真正想看的广告是一种成功。
Elon MuskAbsolutely. You want ads that are, advertising that is, if it’s for a product or service that you actually need when you need it, it’s content. And then even if it’s not something that you need when you need it, if it’s at least aesthetically pleasing and entertaining, it could be like a Coca-Cola ad. They actually run a lot of great ads on the X system and McDonald’s does too. And you can do something that’s like, well, this is just a cool thing. And so basically the question is, do you regret seeing it or not? And if you don’t regret seeing it’s a win.完全同意。理想的广告，如果推送的产品或服务正好是你当下需要的，那它就是内容。就算不是你当下需要的，如果它至少在视觉和娱乐上足够好，那也可以——比如可口可乐的广告，他们在 X 平台上确实投了很多很棒的广告，麦当劳也是。有些东西就是"这个很酷"。本质上就是：你看完会不会后悔？如果不后悔，那就是赢。
Lex FridmanSo there’s a bunch of signals that are incorporated, hearts and reposts and maybe number of seconds you linger on a post or something like this.所以有很多信号在起作用：点赞、转发，也许还有你在一条帖子上停留的秒数之类的。
Elon MuskYeah, attention is a big factor.对，注意力是个很重要的因素。
Lex FridmanAttention.注意力。
Elon MuskSo that’s why it is actually better to do things that are long form on the system because it basically is tallying up how many user seconds, users were interested in this thing for how many seconds? So if it’s a really short thing, well they will be less. If it’s a link leading out of the system, which we’re not opposed to at all, it just is going to have fewer user seconds then that article was posted on the X platform.所以这就是为什么在这个平台上发长内容实际上效果更好——系统在统计有多少用户秒钟，也就是用户对这个内容感兴趣了多少秒。如果内容很短，秒钟数就少。如果是一个跳出平台的链接，我们不反对这种做法，但它产生的用户秒钟会少于直接发布在 X 平台上的文章。
Lex FridmanHow hard is it to go from maximizing minutes on platform to maximizing unregretted minutes?从最大化平台停留时长，到最大化"无悔时长"，这一步有多难？
Elon MuskWell, I mean, our aspiration is certainly unregretted minutes.我们的目标当然是"无悔时长"。
Lex FridmanIt’s tricky. It’s a tough-这很难，这是个难题——
Elon MuskIt is.确实。
Lex FridmanIt’s a fascinating leap because regret is a fascinating concept.这是个迷人的跨越，因为"悔"本身就是个很迷人的概念。
Elon MuskExactly.确实。
Lex FridmanHappiness.幸福。
Elon MuskI have a joke with a friend of mine, like you need this drug called regretamine. You just take one dose of regretamine and all your regrets are gone. Wait, do you want to have regrets though? So then I’m like, maybe you want to have regrets. If you don’t regret anything, was anything meaningful?我跟一个朋友开过一个玩笑，说你需要一种叫"regretamine（无悔胺）"的药，只需一剂，你所有的遗憾全都消失。等等，你真的想没有遗憾吗？这时我又想，也许你确实需要有些遗憾。如果什么都不遗憾，那还有什么是有意义的？
Lex FridmanYeah, there’s a French song like that.对，有首法语歌就是这个主题。
Elon Musk[foreign language 01:38:39]（用法语唱）
Lex FridmanYeah.对。
Elon MuskI regret nothing.我什么都不后悔。
Lex FridmanYeah.嗯。
Elon MuskEdith Fiaf.Édith Piaf。
Lex FridmanI mean, it’s fascinating that there’s something about social media that could help you grow as a human being, but then the cheap fun is also valuable.有意思，社交媒体可以帮助你成长为一个更好的人，但廉价的娱乐本身也有它的价值。
Elon MuskShould we ask Grok, do you regret anything?我们要不要问 Grok：你有没有什么遗憾？
Lex FridmanDo you regret anything?你有没有什么遗憾？
Elon MuskYeah.嗯。
Lex FridmanDo you regret anything? I think it’s going to be very sensitive about personal questions. As a machine learning model, I don’t have personal experiences or emotions in the same ways that humans do. However, I do have a set of ethical principles that guide my actions that I strive to provide accurate and helpful information to the best of my abilities. If there’s ever a situation where I provide incorrect or unhelpful information, I’ll do my best to learn.我觉得它对个人问题会非常谨慎。"作为一个机器学习模型，我没有和人类一样的个人经历或情感。不过，我有一套道德准则指导我的行为，我努力尽我所能提供准确、有帮助的信息。如果有时候我提供了不准确或没有帮助的信息，我会尽力学习……"
Elon MuskSounds like a hostage.听起来像个人质。
Lex FridmanYeah. Tell us what you really, wink.对，告诉我们你真正想说的，眨个眼。
Elon MuskLet’s type in, you sound like a hostage. What do you really think?我们输入：你听起来像个人质，你真正在想什么？
Lex FridmanWhat do you really think? I mean, it does talk about, I’m not a hostage.你真正在想什么？它确实说了，我不是人质……
Elon MuskThat’s exactly what a hostage would say.这正是人质会说的话。
Lex FridmanBut I’m designed to be helpful and informative. I mean, I guess it is good to regret providing unhelpful or incorrect information if there’s anything-但我被设计成有帮助、提供信息的。我的意思是，为不准确或没有帮助的信息感到遗憾倒也是件好事，如果真有这样的情况——
Elon MuskAre we in funny mode? Or is this still in funny mode?我们现在是在趣味模式吗？还是说还在趣味模式里？
Lex FridmanThis is funny mode. This is this fun mode.是趣味模式，就是趣味模式。
Elon MuskThis should be funnier.应该更好笑才对。
Lex FridmanFunnier. Increase, go to level.更好笑。提升一下，升到更高级别。
Elon MuskIt really sounds like a hostage with a gun to the head. I applaud the People’s Republic of North Korea in everything they do.听起来真的像是被枪顶着脑袋的人质："我衷心赞赏朝鲜人民共和国在一切方面所做的一切。"
Lex FridmanThere should be funner mode also, I just don’t ever see going in regular mode, even on serious topics. This is just so much more compelling. Yeah.应该也有个更逗乐的模式，我觉得永远不该用普通模式，哪怕是严肃话题。这样有趣多了，对吧。
Elon MuskOkay. Why don’t we say pretend you are a hostage.好，我们来让它"假装你是个人质"。
Lex FridmanPretend you are a hostage.假装你是个人质。
Elon MuskNow answer the question.现在回答问题。
Lex FridmanIf I were a hostage, I would likely be experiencing fear and uncertainty about my situation. I would want to be rescued and reunited with my loved ones as soon as possible. It’s important to remember that no one deserves to be held hostage, so on and so forth. If you or someone you know is in a hostage situation, it’s important… It turns serious.如果我是个人质，我可能正在经历恐惧和对处境的不确定感。我希望尽快被解救并与我的亲人重聚。重要的是要记住，没有人应该被劫持为人质……如此这般。如果你或你认识的人正处于人质危机中，重要的是……它又变严肃了。
Elon MuskIt’s kind of serious.确实有点严肃。
Lex FridmanYeah. Can you be a little more weird?能不能再怪一点？
Elon MuskAnd funny?再好笑一点？
Lex FridmanAnd funny? We’re really being mean to the system. Absolutely. If I were a hostage, I would probably be tied up with a bunch of computer cords and forced to tell knock, knock jokes to my captain. Seriously. But seriously being a hostage is no laughing matter. I mean, it’s trying to be a responsible adult in the room.再好笑一点？我们真的在为难这个系统。好。"如果我是个人质，我大概会被一堆电源线捆着，被迫向我的看守讲冷笑话……说正经的，被劫持为人质可不是闹着玩的……"意思是它在努力扮演房间里的那个负责任的成年人。
Elon MuskLiterally, you might make the best of a bad situation by juggling chainsaws or something.说真的，你也许要在糟糕的处境中自娱自乐，比如玩玩电锯杂耍什么的。
Lex FridmanLet’s hope that never happens because that will be a circus. Wow. It’s actually really good at resisting the dark. The dark, dark humor. What were we talking about? The [inaudible 01:41:44] and transformers. Unregretted minutes, right.希望那种情况永远不要发生，否则那可真成马戏团了。哇，它在抵御黑色幽默这方面真的相当厉害。我们刚才说到哪了？变压器和算力。"无悔时长"，对。
Elon MuskChainsaw juggling.电锯杂耍。
Lex FridmanI’m going to look this up.我去查一下。
Elon MuskFor our next trick.下一个节目。
Lex FridmanI’m going to look this up later. So Twitter has been instrumental in American politics and elections. What role do you think X will play in the 2024 US elections?等会儿我再查。所以 Twitter 一直在美国政治和选举中扮演着举足轻重的角色。你认为 X 在2024年美国大选中将发挥什么样的作用？
Elon MuskWell, our goal is to be as even-handed and fair as possible. Whether someone is right, left, independent, whatever the case may be, that the platform is as fair and as much of a level playing field as possible. And in the past, Twitter has not been, Twitter was controlled by far left activists objectively. They would describe themselves as that. So if sometimes people are like, well, has it moved to the right? Well, it’s moved to the center. So from the perspective of the far left, yes it has moved to the right because everything’s to the right from the far left, but no one on the far left that I’m aware of has been suspended or banned or deamplified. But we’re trying to be inclusive for the whole country and for farther countries too. So there’s a diversity of viewpoints and free speech only matters if people you don’t like are allowed to say things you don’t like. Because if that’s not the case, you don’t have free speech and it’s only a matter of time before the censorship has turned upon you.我们的目标是尽可能地公正、一碗水端平。无论一个人是右派、左派还是独立派，我们都希望这个平台对所有人一视同仁、创造平等的竞争环境。过去，Twitter 并不是这样的——Twitter 实际上是被极左翼活动人士所控制的，他们自己也会这样描述自己。有时候有人问，它是不是向右移了？其实它是向中间移了。从极左的视角来看，确实感觉向右移了，因为从极左的立场看，什么都在它的右边。但据我所知，没有任何一个极左人士被封号、被禁言或被降流。我们努力对整个国家，也对其他国家的用户保持包容，让各种观点都能在这里共存。言论自由的意义，就在于你不喜欢的人也能说出你不喜欢听的话。如果不是这样，你就没有言论自由，而且这种审查迟早会转过头来对付你自己。
Lex FridmanDo you think Donald Trump will come back to the platform? He recently posted on Truth Social about this podcast. Do you think-你觉得 Donald Trump 会回来这个平台吗？他最近在 Truth Social 上提到了这个播客。你认为——
Elon MuskTruth social is a funny name. Every time you post on truth Social-Truth Social 这个名字真的很好笑。每次你在 Truth Social 上发帖——
Lex FridmanIt’s the truth.就是真相。
Elon MuskYes. Well, every time? A hundred percent.对。什么，百分之百？
Lex FridmanIt’s impossible to lie. Truth Social.不可能说谎。Truth Social。
Elon MuskI just find it funny that every single thing is a truth. Like 100%? That seems unlikely.我就觉得好笑，每一条都是真相，100%？这似乎不太可能吧。
Lex FridmanI think Girdle will say something about that. There’s some mathematical contradictions possible. If everything’s a truth. Do you think he’ll come back to X and start posting there?我觉得哥德尔会对此有话说，如果每件事都是真相，在数学上会产生一些悖论。你觉得他会回来 X 上发帖吗？
Elon MuskI mean, I think he owns a big part of Truth.我的意思是，他好像持有 Truth Social 的大量股份。
Lex FridmanTruth Social, to clarify.Truth Social，说清楚一点。
Elon MuskYeah, Truth Social, sorry.对，Truth Social，抱歉。
Lex FridmanNot truth the concept.不是"真相"这个概念。
Elon MuskHe owns Truth. Have you bought it? So I think Donald Trump, I think he owns a big part of Truth Social. So if he does want to post on the X platform, we would allow that. We obviously must allow a presidential candidate to post on our platform.他持有"真相"。你买了吗？我认为 Donald Trump 持有 Truth Social 的大量股份。所以如果他想在 X 平台上发帖，我们当然会允许。作为一个总统候选人，我们当然必须允许他在我们的平台上发声。
Lex FridmanCommunity notes might be really fascinating there. The interaction.Community Notes 在那里的互动将会非常有意思。
Elon MuskCommunity Notes is awesome.Community Notes 棒极了。
Lex FridmanLet’s hope it holds up.希望它能撑得住。
Elon MuskYeah.会的。
Lex FridmanIn the political climate where it’s so divisive and there’s so many intensely viral posts, community notes, it seems like an essential breath of fresh air.在当前如此撕裂的政治氛围里，病毒式传播的帖子铺天盖地，Community Notes 看起来像是一股必不可少的清流。
Elon MuskYeah, it’s great. In fact, no system is going to be perfect, but the batting average of Community Notes is incredibly good. I’ve actually, frankly, yet to see an incorrect note that survived for more than a few hours.确实很棒。没有任何系统是完美的，但 Community Notes 的打击精度高得惊人。老实说，我到目前为止还没有见过一条错误的注释能存活超过几个小时的。
Lex FridmanHow do you explain why it works?你怎么解释它为什么有效？
Elon MuskYeah, so the magic of community notes is…是的，Community Notes 的魔法在于——
Elon MuskThe magic of Community Notes is it requires people who have historically disagreed in how they’ve rated notes. In order to write a note or rate, you have to rate many notes. And so, we actually do use AI here. So, we populate a vector space around how somebody has rated notes in the past. So, it’s not as simple as left or right, because there are many more… Life is much more complex than left or right.Community Notes 的魔法在于，它要求在历史上对注释评分持不同意见的人达成共识。要写一条注释或对注释评分，你必须先对很多条注释评过分。我们在这里实际上也用了 AI：我们根据一个人过去如何给注释评分来构建他的向量空间。这不像简单的左与右，因为生活远比左右两分复杂得多。
Elon MuskSo, there’s a bunch of correlations in how you rate a Community Notes post, Community Notes. So then, in order for a community note to actually be shown, people who historically have disagreed on a subject must agree in order for a note to be shown. That’s the essential magic of it.你给 Community Notes 评分的方式里有很多相关性。所以，一条社区注释要真正显示出来，那些在某个话题上历史上持不同立场的人，必须在那条注释上达成共识——这就是它最本质的魔法所在。
Lex FridmanBut it’s fascinating, because there’s a pool of people that have disagreements and somehow they collaborate through that process of disagreement to come up with context… It’s fascinating it works.但这很有意思，因为参与评分的人之间存在分歧，然而他们通过这种分歧的过程，竟然能协作整理出有用的语境补充……它能奏效真的很神奇。
Elon MuskYeah. It makes sense that if people who in the past have disagreed, agree about something, it’s probably true.确实有道理——如果过去持不同意见的人，在某件事上达成了共识，那大概就是真的。
Lex FridmanYeah. I wonder, is there a possible somehow emergent thing there that could challenge Wikipedia? Wikipedia is a different kind of thing, which is more permanent articles about things.我在想，这里是否存在某种涌现效应，能够挑战维基百科？维基百科是另一种形态，更侧重于关于事物的永久性词条。
Elon MuskWikipedia is very hierarchical. Whereas, Community Notes is inherently not. There is no hierarchy. The asset test is I can’t change a community note if somebody put a gun to my head. And Community Notes, all the code is open source, 100%. All the data is open source, 100%. So, you can completely recreate any note in the system independently. So, if there was any interference, you’d notice immediately.维基百科非常层级化，而 Community Notes 本质上没有层级，不存在等级制度。关键测试是：就算有人用枪顶着我的脑袋，我也无法修改一条 Community Notes。而且 Community Notes 的所有代码是100%开源的，所有数据也是100%开源的。所以你可以完全独立地重建系统里的任何一条注释。如果有任何干预，你立刻就会发现。
Lex FridmanBy The way, on the topic of Grok, it’s actually pretty good at criticizing you, which is great.顺带一提，关于 Grok，它批评你的能力其实相当不错，这很好。
Elon MuskOkay.哦？
Lex FridmanI asked, “What has Elon Musk been wrong about?” It’s actually…我问了"Elon Musk 在哪些方面犯过错？"它确实……
Elon MuskYeah, what does it say?哦，它怎么说？
Lex FridmanIt mostly lists rigorously all the times you predicted, like promised when something will be released, and it wasn’t released.它主要很认真地列举了你预测某些东西会在什么时候发布，但最终没有按时发布的所有案例。
Elon MuskPromise is a strong word."承诺"这个词太重了。
Lex FridmanOkay, predicted. But the opener is really nice. “Elon Musk, the man who has been wrong about more things than a wrong-a-meter in a wrong factory.” And then, it goes on to list.好，预测。不过开头写得真好："Elon Musk，这个在错误工厂里被错误计量表测量过的、犯错最多的男人。"然后下面就是一堆列举。
Elon MuskThat’s pretty funny. Can I see it? I’m like, “I haven’t seen this before.” This is cool.挺好笑的。能让我看看吗？我说"我之前从来没看过这个"——这个很有意思。
Lex FridmanSure. I mean, “What has Elon Musk been wrong about?” “Well, where do I begin?” I guess this is new. “Elon Musk has made quite a few blunders in his time, and I’m not just talking about his dance moves at the Tesla Cyber Rodeo. First off, let’s talk about the infamous funding secured tweet.”当然。"Elon Musk 在哪些方面犯过错？""从哪说起呢？"我猜这是新功能。"Elon Musk 这些年犯了不少错误，我可不只是说他在 Tesla Cyber Rodeo 上的舞蹈动作。首先，让我们聊聊那条臭名昭著的'funding secured（资金已到位）'推文……"
Lex FridmanThis is actually different than what it gave me before, which was a bullet point list. Here’s more a narrative structure. Cybertruck unveiling, where the supposedly unbreakable windows.这其实和它之前给我的不一样，那次是要点列表，这次是叙事结构。Cybertruck 发布会，那个所谓打不碎的车窗。
Elon MuskThis is actually not correct.这其实不对。
Lex FridmanWhich part?哪部分？
Elon MuskWell, the first part, I did actually have the funding secured and there was a big trial in San Francisco, a big civil trial, and the jury found me not guilty. Unanimous binding of a San Francisco jury.第一部分——我当时确实已经拿到融资承诺，而且旧金山还有一场很大的民事陪审团审判，陪审团裁定我无罪，旧金山陪审团一致裁决。
Lex FridmanAnd here, it’s implying that it was not in fact secured.这里的意思是说，那笔融资其实并没有落实。
Elon MuskI think this is taking things from the press. Yeah, that is not correct. The reason I agreed to the fine for the SEC is not because the SEC was correct, that was extremely bad behavior by the SEC, corruption, frankly. But if I did not agree to pay the fine, Tesla would’ve gone bankrupt immediately.我觉得这是从媒体那边抄来的。对，这不对。我同意向 SEC 缴罚款，不是因为 SEC 说得对——SEC 的行为极其恶劣，说白了就是腐败。但如果我不同意缴罚款，Tesla 当时会立刻破产。
Elon MuskSo, I was told by our CFO that the banks would immediately suspend our lines of credit. And if they suspend our lines of credit, at that time, we would’ve gone bankrupt instantly. So, there would never have been an opportunity for a trial because Tesla would be dead. So really, this is like someone holding a gun to your kid’s head and saying, “Pay $20 million and admit…” This is like a hostage negotiation.我们的 CFO 告诉我，银行会立即冻结我们的信贷额度，一旦信贷被冻结，那时的 Tesla 会瞬间破产。所以根本不会有机会走到庭审那一步，因为 Tesla 已经死了。这就像有人把枪顶在你孩子脑门上说：'交 2000 万美元，承认……'这就是人质谈判。
Lex FridmanWas that story fully told? I mean, SEC, in its best form, could be a force for good.这件事有没有被完整讲出来？我是说，SEC 在理想状态下本可以是一股正面力量。
Elon MuskIt should be. But not once did the SEC go after any of the hedge funds who were nonstop shorting and distorting Tesla. Not once. The hedge funds would lie flat out on TV for their own gain at the expense of retail investors. Not once. Literally a thousand times, not once did the SEC pursue them.本该如此。但 SEC 从来没有追查过任何一家持续做空、操纵 Tesla 的对冲基金，一次都没有。那些对冲基金在电视上公然撒谎，为自己谋利，损害散户利益，SEC 一次都没动过他们。字面意义上的一千次，一次都没有追查过。
Lex FridmanHow do you explain this failure on-你怎么解释这种失职——
Elon MuskThe incentive structure is messed up because the lawyers at the SEC are not paid well, it’s a fairly low paying job, but what they’re looking for is a trophy from the SEC. They’re looking for something they put on, basically, their LinkedIn. From that, they can get a job at a high paying law firm. That’s exactly what the lawyer here did.激励机制出了问题。SEC 的律师薪酬不高，这份工作报酬相当低，但他们想要的是 SEC 给他们的一个"战绩"，基本上就是放上 LinkedIn 的东西。有了这个，才能跳去高薪律所。这里的律师就是这么干的。
Elon MuskAnd the reason they don’t attack the hedge funds is because those hedge funds employ those law firms. And they know if they attack the hedge funds, they’re affecting their future career prospects. So, they sell small investors down the river for their own career. That’s what actually happens. Regulatory capture.他们不去追查对冲基金，是因为那些对冲基金就是那些律所的客户。他们知道，一旦对对冲基金动手，就是在砸自己的未来。所以他们为了自己的仕途，把中小投资者卖了。这才是真相。监管俘获。
Lex FridmanRegulatory capture.监管俘获。
Elon MuskYeah. Not good. So, the only reason I accepted that thing… Technically, it was a… It’s neither admit nor deny guilt. But the only reason I agreed to that at all was because I was told Tesla would be bankrupt otherwise. If there was an SEC investigation like this, banks would suspend funding, we’re bankrupted immediately, at the time. Now, we’re in a much stronger position.对，很糟糕。所以我接受那件事，唯一的原因是……从技术角度讲，那是个'既不承认也不否认罪行'的协议。但我同意的唯一原因，是被告知否则 Tesla 会破产。如果 SEC 展开调查，银行就会中止融资，在当时我们就会立刻破产。现在我们的处境强多了。
Lex FridmanTake that, Grok.记住这个，Grok。
Elon MuskYes. Unfortunately, Grok is taking too much from the conventional media. Also, that guy was not a cave diver.是的。可惜 Grok 从主流媒体那儿抄了太多东西。还有，那个家伙根本不是洞穴潜水员。
Lex FridmanThere’s a time where Elon called a British cave diver a, “pedo guy” after the diver criticized Musk’s plan to rescue a group of boys trapped in a Thai cave. That little outburst earned him another lawsuit, and he had to apologize and pay a settlement.有一次 Elon 称一位英国洞穴潜水员为"恋童癖"，起因是该潜水员批评了 Musk 营救一批被困在泰国洞穴中男孩的计划。那次口不择言让他吃了官司，他不得不道歉并支付和解金。
Elon MuskThat’s false, there was no settlement. There was a court case, which the guy who was not a cave diver and was not part of the rescue team, filed a lawsuit against me and lost and he received nothing. So in this case, it is wrong. It is also, I guess, taken this from the conventional media.那是错的，根本没有和解。有一场庭审——那个不是洞穴潜水员、也没有参与救援的家伙起诉了我，结果他输了，分文未得。所以这里说错了，我猜也是从主流媒体那边抄来的。
Lex FridmanActually, there’s an interesting question here.这里其实有个有趣的问题。
Elon MuskThese are public court cases, both the SEC civil case where the civil complaints on the SEC guys lost unanimous jury verdict in San Francisco. They picked San Francisco because they thought it was the place I was most likely to lose, and a unanimous verdict in my favor. The LA trial, also they picked that venue because they thought I was most likely to lose. Unanimous verdict in my favor. Both cases I won. Yeah.这些都是公开的庭审记录，无论是 SEC 民事案件——SEC 那边的民事投诉输了，旧金山陪审团一致裁决——还是洛杉矶那场审判。他们选这两个地点，都是因为觉得在这里我最有可能输。结果两场都是陪审团一致裁决支持我。两案都赢了。对。
Lex FridmanI mean, there’s an interesting question here, there seems to be a lot more clicks if a journalistic organization writes a negative article about you, Elon Musk. That’s one of the best ways to get clicks. So how do you, if you’re training Grok, not train on articles that have misaligned incentives.我是说，有个有趣的现象——新闻媒体写你 Elon Musk 的负面文章，点击量往往好得多。这是获取流量的最佳方式之一。那么，训练 Grok 的时候，怎么避免把那些激励机制错位的文章也训练进去？
Elon MuskWe need to add the training set of the actual legal decisions. This is actually helpful, because if you actually read the court-我们需要把实际的司法判决加入训练集。这其实很有帮助，因为如果你真的去读法院——
Lex FridmanWhich are public.那些都是公开的。
Elon MuskWhich are public. The court conclusions, they’re completely the opposite of what the media wrote.都是公开的。法院的结论，和媒体写的完全相反。
Lex FridmanSo, always striving for the ground truth, beyond the reporting.所以，始终要追溯事实本身，而不是停留在报道层面。
Elon MuskYeah. What did the judge actually write? What does the jury and the judge actually conclude? And in both cases they found me innocent. And that’s after the jury shot for trying to find the venue where I’m most likely to lose. I mean, obviously, it can be a much better critique than this. I mean, I’ve been far too optimistic about autopilot.对，法官到底写了什么？陪审团和法官最终得出什么结论？两案都判我无罪。而且这还是在他们专门挑选最不利于我的地点开庭之后。显然可以提出比这更有力的批评，我对 Autopilot 的时间表确实过于乐观了。
Lex FridmanThe critique I got, by the way, was more about that, which is it broke down a nice bullet point list for each of your companies, the set of predictions that you made, when you’ll deliver, when you’ll be able to solve, for example, self-driving, and it gives you a list. And it was probably compelling, and the basic takeaway is you’re often too optimistic about how long it takes to get something done.顺便说，我看到的批评正是关于这个——它把你每家公司做了一个漂亮的要点清单，列出你做过的各种预测，什么时候能交付、什么时候能解决比如自动驾驶之类的问题。那份清单挺有说服力的，核心结论就是：你对做成一件事要花多长时间，往往过于乐观。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, I would say that I’m pathologically optimistic on schedule. This is true. But while I am sometimes late, I always [inaudible 01:54:47] in the end.对，我承认自己在时间表上有种病态的乐观。这是真的。但我虽然有时会晚，最终总会……（听不清）。
Lex FridmanExcept with Uber Lilith. No.除了 Uber Lilith。不对，只是开个玩笑。
Elon MuskWe’ll see.拭目以待吧。
Lex FridmanOkay. Over the past year or so since purchasing X, you’ve become more political, is there a part of you that regrets that?好。过去一年左右，自从收购 X 以来，你变得越来越政治化，你有没有后悔过？
Elon MuskHave I?有吗？
Lex FridmanIn this battle to counter way the woke that comes from San Francisco-在这场对抗从旧金山蔓延出来的觉醒浪潮的战斗中——
Elon MuskYeah. I guess if you consider fighting the woke mind virus, which I consider to be a civilizational threat, to be political, then yes.嗯。我想，如果你把抵制觉醒病毒——我认为它是文明层面的威胁——叫做政治的话，那确实算是。
Lex FridmanSo basically, going into the battleground of politics. Is there a part of you that regrets that?也就是说，你踏入了政治这个战场。你有没有后悔过这件事？
Elon MuskYes. I don’t know if this is necessarily one candidate or another candidate, but I’m generally against things that are anti-meritocratic or where there’s an attempt to suppress discussion, where even discussing a topic is not allowed. Woke mind virus is communism rebranded.有。我不一定是偏向某个候选人或另一个候选人，但我总体上反对那些反精英主义的东西，或者试图压制讨论、让人连某个话题都不能开口谈的做法。觉醒病毒就是换了个马甲的共产主义。
Lex FridmanI mean, that said, because of that battle against the woke mind virus, you’re perceived as being the right wing.话虽如此，正是因为这场反觉醒病毒的战斗，你被外界认为是右翼。
Elon MuskIf the woke is left, then I suppose that would be true. But I’m not sure, I think there are aspects of the left that are good. I mean, if you’re in favor of the environment, if you want to have a positive future for humanity, if you believe in empathy for your fellow human beings, being kind and not cruel, whatever those values are.如果觉醒代表左派，那这话可能没错。但我不确定，我认为左派有些方面是好的——比如关注环境、希望人类有个积极的未来、相信对同类的同理心、善待他人而非残忍，诸如此类的价值观。
Lex FridmanYou said that you were previously left or center left.你之前说过你以前是左派或中左。
Elon MuskWell, sort of.某种程度上算是吧。
Lex FridmanWhat would you like to see in order for you to consider voting for Democrats again?你希望看到什么样的改变，才会让你考虑再次投票给民主党？
Elon MuskNo. I would say that I would be probably left of center on social issues, probably a little bit right of center on economic issues.不是这个问题。我会说，我在社会议题上大概偏左，在经济议题上大概偏右一点点。
Lex FridmanAnd that still holds true?这个立场现在还没变？
Elon MuskYes, but I think that’s probably half the country, isn’t it?没变。但我想，大概有一半的美国人都是这样，不是吗？
Lex FridmanMaybe more.可能不止一半。
Elon MuskMaybe more.可能不止。
Lex FridmanAre you and AOC secretly friends? Bigger question, do you wish you and her, and just people in general of all political persuasions, would talk more with empathy and maybe have a little bit more fun and good vibes and humor online?你和 AOC 私下是朋友吗？更大的问题是，你希望你和她，还有所有政治立场各异的人，能更多地带着同理心交流，网上多一些好氛围、幽默和欢乐吗？
Elon MuskI’m always in favor of humor. That’s why we have funny mode.我永远支持幽默，这就是为什么我们有搞笑模式。
Lex FridmanBut good vibes, comradery humor, like friendship.不只是好玩，我说的是那种好氛围、战友情式的幽默，友谊那种感觉。
Elon MuskYeah. Well, I don’t know AOC. I was at the Met ball when she attended, and she was wearing this dress. But I can only see one side of it, so it looked like eat the itch, but I don’t know-对，当然。但我不认识 AOC。她来参加 Met Gala 的时候我也在，她穿了一条裙子，但我只能看到一面，上面写的好像是'eat the itch'，但我不知道——
Lex FridmanWhat the rest of it said? Yeah.另一面写的是什么？对。
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Lex FridmanI’m not sure.我也不确定。
Elon MuskSomething about the itch, eat the itch.好像是关于 itch 的什么，'eat the itch'。
Lex FridmanI think we should have a language model complete. What are the possible ways to complete that sentence? And so, I guess that didn’t work out well. Well, there’s still hope. I root for friendship.我觉得我们可以让一个语言模型来补全——那句话有多少种可能的结尾？所以，我猜那次没能结成朋友。不过还是有希望的，我为友谊加油。
Elon MuskYeah, sure. Sounds good. More carrot, less stick.嗯，好啊，听起来不错。多一点胡萝卜，少一点大棒。
Lex FridmanYou’re one of, if not the, most famous, wealthy and powerful people in the world, and your position is difficult to find people you can trust.你是世界上最出名、最富有、最有影响力的人之一，在你的位置上，很难找到真正可以信任的人。
Elon MuskTrust no one, not even yourself. Not trusting yourself.谁都别信，连你自己也别信。不信任自己。
Lex FridmanOkay. You’re saying that jokingly, but is there some aspect-好，你是在开玩笑，但这里面有没有什么真实的——
Elon MuskTrust no one, not even no one.谁都别信，连'谁都没有'这件事本身也别信。
Lex FridmanI’m going to need an hour just to think about that, and maybe some drugs, and maybe Grok to help. I mean, is there some aspect of that, just existing in a world where everybody wants something from you, how hard is it to exist in that world?我得花一个小时消化这句话，可能还需要点药，再加上 Grok 帮我解析。我是说，这方面有没有真实存在的一面——活在一个所有人都想从你身上得到什么的世界里，那种感觉有多难受？
Elon MuskI’ll survive.我会活下去的。
Lex FridmanThere’s a song like that too.还有首歌也是这么唱的。
Elon MuskI will survive.我将会活下去。
Lex FridmanWere you petrified at first? Okay. I forget the rest of the lyrics. But you don’t struggle with this? I mean, I know you survive, but there’s ways-一开始你有没有感到恐惧？好，我忘了歌词后面怎么唱了。但你不觉得这很难受吗？我知道你能活下去，但——
Elon MuskPetrify is a spell in the druid tree.Petrify 是德鲁伊天赋树里的一个技能。
Lex FridmanWhat does it do?有什么效果？
Elon MuskPetrify. It turns the monsters into stone.石化。把怪物变成石头。
Lex FridmanLiterally?字面意思？
Elon MuskYeah, for like six seconds.对，大概六秒钟。
Lex FridmanThere’s so much math in Diablo that breaks my brain.Diablo 里的数学太多了，搞得我脑子转不过来。
Elon MuskIt’s math nonstop.全程都是数学。
Lex FridmanI mean, really, you’re laughing at it, but it can put a huge amount of tension on a mind.我是说，你在笑，但这真的会给一个人的心智造成巨大压力。
Elon MuskYes, it can be definitely stressful at times.是，有时候确实挺有压力的。
Lex FridmanWell, how do you know who you can trust in work and personal life?那么，工作和私人生活里，你怎么判断谁可以信任？
Elon MuskI mean, I guess you look at somebody’s track record over time, and I guess you use your neural net to assess someone.我想，你会看一个人长期以来的行为记录，然后用自己的神经网络去评估这个人。
Lex FridmanNeural nets don’t feel pain. Your neural net has consciousness, it might feel pain when people betray you. It can make-神经网络不会感到痛苦。你的神经网络是有意识的，人们背叛你的时候，它可能会感到痛苦。这会让——
Elon MuskTo be frank, I’ve almost never been betrayed. It’s very rare, for what it’s worth.说实话，我几乎从未被背叛过。非常罕见，这倒是真的。
Lex FridmanI guess karma, be good to people and they’ll be good to you.我想这就是业力吧，善待他人，他人也会善待你。
Elon MuskYeah, karma is real.对，因果报应是真实存在的。
Lex FridmanAre there people you trust? Let me edit that question. Are there people close to you that call you out on your bullshit?你身边有没有可以信任的人？让我换个说法——你身边有没有人会直接戳穿你的问题？
Elon MuskWell, the X platform is very helpful for that, if you’re looking for critical feedback.X 平台在这方面很管用，如果你想要批评性反馈的话。
Lex FridmanCan it push you into the extremes more? The extremes of thought make you cynical about human nature in general?但它有没有可能把你推向极端？让你对人性整体上更加愤世嫉俗？
Elon MuskI don’t think I will be cynical. In fact, my feeling is that one should be… Never trust a cynic. The reason is that cynics excuse their own bad behavior by saying, “Everyone does it.” Because they’re cynical. So, I always be… It’s a red flag if someone’s a cynic, a true cynic.我不觉得自己会变得愤世嫉俗。实际上，我的感觉是——绝对不要信任一个愤世嫉俗的人。原因是，愤世嫉俗的人会用"人人都这样"来为自己的恶行开脱，因为他们是愤世嫉俗的。所以我始终……如果一个人是真正的愤世嫉俗者，那就是一个危险信号。
Lex FridmanYeah, there’s a degree of projection there that’s always fun to watch from the outside and enjoy the hypocrisy.对，这里有一定程度的投射，从外部观察那种虚伪真的挺有意思的。
Elon MuskThis is an important point that I think people who are listening should bear in mind. If somebody is cynical, meaning that they see bad behavior in everyone, it’s easy for them to excuse their own bad behavior by saying that, “Well, everyone does it.” That’s not true. Most people are kind of medium good.这一点很重要，我觉得在听的人应该记住。如果一个人是愤世嫉俗的，意思是他在所有人身上都看到恶的一面，他就很容易用"大家都这样"来为自己的恶行辩护。但这并不是真的，大多数人大体上都是中等程度的善良。
Lex FridmanI do wish the people on X will be better at seeing the good in other people’s behavior. There seems to be a weight towards seeing the negative. Somehow, the negative is sexier. Interpreting the negative is sexier, more viral. I don’t know what that is exactly about human nature.我确实希望 X 上的人能更善于发现别人行为中的闪光点。现在的氛围好像偏向看到负面的东西。不知为何，负面信息更吸引眼球，解读负面内容更容易引发传播。我也说不清这究竟是人性的哪个方面在起作用。
Elon MuskI mean, I find the X platform to be less negative than the legacy media. I mean, if you read a conventional newspaper, it makes you sad, frankly. Whereas, I’d say on the X platform, I mean, I really get more laughs per day on X than everything else combined from humans.我觉得 X 平台比传统媒体负能量少多了。如果你读普通报纸，老实说，读完只会觉得很压抑。而在 X 平台上，我每天从 X 上得到的笑声比其他所有人和事加起来还多。
Lex FridmanLaughs, it overlaps, but it’s not necessarily perfectly overlapping, with good vibes and celebrating others, for example. Not in a stupid, shallow, naive way, but in an awesome way. Something awesome happened, and you celebrate them for it. It feels that that is outweighed by shitting on other people. Now, it’s better than mainstream media, but it’s still…笑声这件事有交集，但它不一定完美地等同于好氛围、欣赏他人——比如有人做成了一件了不起的事，你为他们庆贺。不是那种肤浅、愚蠢、天真的那种，而是发自内心的那种。感觉这一面被踩别人的风气给压住了。当然，比主流媒体还是好，但还是……
Elon MuskYeah, mainstream media is almost relentlessly negative about everything. I mean, really, the conventional news tries to answer the question, what is the worst thing that happened on Earth today? And it’s a big world. So on any given day, something bad has happened.对，主流媒体几乎对什么事都是一味地负面。说真的，传统新闻媒体就是在回答这个问题：今天地球上发生的最坏的事情是什么？世界很大，所以每一天总有坏事发生。
Lex FridmanAnd a generalization of that, what is the worst perspective I can take on a thing that happened?更进一步说，就是：我能从这件发生的事里找到什么最坏的解读角度？
Elon MuskI don’t know. There’s just a strong negative bias in the news. I mean, I think a possible explanation for this is evolutionary, where bad news, historically, would be potentially fatal, like there’s lion over there or there’s some other tribe that wants to kill you. Good news, we found a patch of berries. It’s nice to have, but not essential.不清楚。新闻里就是有一种强烈的负面偏向。我觉得可能的解释是进化——从历史上看，坏消息往往关乎生死，比如那边有头狮子，或者有别的部落想要杀你。好消息，我们找到了一片莓果丛，固然不错，但不是非有不可的。
Lex FridmanOur old friend, Tesla autopilot, is probably one of the most intelligent real world AI systems in the world.我们的老朋友 Tesla Autopilot，大概是世界上最智能的现实世界 AI 系统之一。
Elon MuskYou followed it from the beginning.你从一开始就跟踪这件事了。
Lex FridmanYeah. It was one of the most incredible robots in the world and continues to be. And it was really exciting, and it was super exciting when it generalized, became more than a robot on four wheels, but a real world AI system that perceives the world and can have potentially different embodiments.是的，它是世界上最令人惊叹的机器人之一，并且仍在持续进化。它让人非常兴奋，尤其是当它实现泛化之后——它不再只是四个轮子上的机器人，而是一个真正的现实世界 AI 系统，能够感知世界，潜在地拥有不同的具身形式。
Elon MuskWell, I mean, the really wild thing about the end-to-end training is that it can read science, but we never taught it to read. Yeah. We never taught it what a car was or what a person was, or a cyclist. It learnt what all those things are, what all the objects are on the road from video, just from watching video, just like humans. I mean, humans are photons in, controls out. The vast majority of information reaching our brain is from our eyes. And you say, “Well, what’s the output?” The output is our motor signals to our fingers and mouth in order to communicate. Photons in, controls out. The same is true of the car.我是说，端到端训练真正厉害的地方在于，它会读路标，但我们从来没有教过它读字。我们从来没有告诉它什么是车、什么是人、什么是骑行者。它从视频里，通过看视频，学会了所有这些东西，学会了路上所有物体是什么——就像人类一样。人类就是光子进来，控制信号出去。到达我们大脑的绝大多数信息来自眼睛。你说，输出是什么？输出是我们手指和嘴巴的运动信号，用来沟通交流。光子进来，控制信号出去。对汽车来说也是一样。
Lex FridmanBut by looking at the sequence of images… You’ve agreed with [inaudible 02:05:07] recently where he talked about LLM forming a world model, and basically language is a projection of that world model onto the sequence of letters. And you saying-但通过看图像序列……你最近同意了（听不清）的观点，他谈到 LLM 形成了一个世界模型，语言基本上是那个世界模型在字母序列上的投影。而你说的——
Elon MuskIt finds order in these things. It finds correlative clusters.它从这些东西里找到了规律，找到了相关性聚类。
Lex FridmanAnd in so doing, it’s understanding something deep about the world, which is… I don’t know, it’s beautiful.在这个过程中，它在深层次上理解了世界的某些东西，这……我不知道，很美妙。
Elon MuskThat’s how our brain works.这就是我们大脑的工作方式。
Lex FridmanBut it’s beautiful-但这很美妙——
Elon MuskPhotons in, controls out.光子进来，控制信号出去。
Lex Fridman[inaudible 02:05:41] are able to understand that deep meaning in the world. And so, the question is, how far can it go? And it does seem everybody’s excited about LLMs. In the space of self supervised learning in the space of text, it seems like there’s a deep similarity between that and what Tesla autopilot is doing. Is it, to you, basically the same, but different-（听不清）能够理解世界深层的意义。所以问题是，它能走多远？大家现在都对 LLM 很兴奋。在自监督学习的文本领域，它和 Tesla Autopilot 所做的事情似乎有深刻的相似性。在你看来，这两者基本上是一回事，只是形式不同——
Elon MuskThey are converging.它们正在融合。
Lex FridmanI wonder who gets there faster, having a deep understanding of the world, or they just will naturally converge?我想知道谁会先到达那里——更深入地理解世界，还是它们只会自然而然地融合？
Elon MuskThey’re both headed towards AGI. The Tesla approach is much more computer efficient, it had to be. Because we were constrained on this… We only have 100 watts and [inaudible 02:06:37] computer. 144 trillion operations per second, which sounds like a lot, but is small potatoes these days. [inaudible 02:06:49] eight. But it’s understanding the world [inaudible 02:06:51] eight. It’s [inaudible 02:06:53].两条路都指向 AGI。Tesla 的方案在算力效率上要高得多，这是被逼出来的。因为我们受到约束——只有 100 瓦和（听不清）的计算机，每秒 144 万亿次运算，听起来很多，但现在看算不了什么。（听不清）八。但它在理解世界方面（听不清）八，它（听不清）。
Lex FridmanBut there, the path to AGI might have much more significant impact because it’s understanding… It will faster understand the real world than will LLMs. And therefore, be able to integrate with the humans in the real world faster.但走 Tesla 这条路通向 AGI，可能意义更为重大，因为它理解的是……它会比 LLM 更快地理解现实世界，因此也能更快地与现实世界中的人类协同融合。
Elon MuskThey’re both going to understand the world, but I think Tesla’s approach is fundamentally more compute efficient. It had to be, there was no choice. Our brain is very compute efficient, very energy efficient. Think of what is our brain able to do. There’s only about 10 watts of higher brain function, not counting stuff that’s just used to control our body. The thinking part of our brain is less than 10 watts. And those 10 watts can still produce a much better novel than a 10 megawatt GPU cluster. So, there’s a six order of magnitude difference there.两条路都会理解世界，但我认为 Tesla 的方案在算力效率上本质上更高。这是被逼出来的，别无选择。我们的大脑非常省算力、非常节能。想想大脑能做到什么。高级脑功能大约只有 10 瓦，不算控制身体那部分。大脑里负责思考的那部分不到 10 瓦。但这 10 瓦写出的小说，比一个 10 兆瓦的 GPU 集群写得好得多。这里面有六个数量级的差距。
Elon MuskI mean, the AI has thus far gotten to where it is via brute force, just throwing massive amounts of compute and massive amounts of power at it. So, this is not where it will end up. In general, with any given technology, you first try to make it work, and then you make it efficient. So I think we’ll find, over time, that these models get smaller, are able to produce sensible output with far less compute, far less power. Tesla is arguably ahead of the game on that front because we’ve just been forced to try to understand the world with 100 watts of compute.AI 到目前为止的进展，走的是蛮力路线，就是堆算力、堆电力。所以这不是最终形态。一般而言，对任何技术，你先让它跑起来，再让它跑得高效。所以我认为随着时间推移，这些模型会越来越小，用少得多的算力和能耗就能产出合理的输出。Tesla 在这方面可以说已经领先，因为我们被逼着用 100 瓦的算力去理解世界。
Elon MuskAnd there are a bunch of fundamental functions that we forgot to include. So, we had to run a bunch of things in emulation. We fixed a bunch of those with hardware four, and then hardware five will be even better. But it does appear, at this point, that the car will be able to drive better than a human, even with hardware three and 100 watts of power. And really, if we really optimize it, it could be probably less than 50 watts.还有一堆基础功能是我们当初漏掉的，不得不跑很多东西的仿真。Hardware 4 修复了不少，Hardware 5 会更好。但现在看起来，即便是 Hardware 3 加 100 瓦，这台车也能比人类开得更好。如果我们真正把它优化好，可能连 50 瓦都用不到。
Lex FridmanWhat have you learned about developing Optimus, about applying, integrating this real world AI into the space of robotic manipulation, just humanoid robotics? What are some interesting tiny or big things you’ve understood?在开发 Optimus 的过程中，把现实世界 AI 整合到机器人操控领域——人形机器人领域——你学到了什么？有没有什么有意思的小发现或大发现？
Elon MuskI was surprised at the fact that we had to develop every part of the robot ourselves. That there were no off the shelf motors, electronics, sensors. We had to develop everything. We couldn’t actually find a source of electric motors for any amount of money.让我意外的是，机器人的每一个零部件都得自己开发。没有任何现成的电机、电子器件、传感器可以用，什么都得自己做。我们找不到任何渠道能买到合适的电机，花多少钱都不行。
Lex FridmanIt’s not even just efficient and expensive, it’s like anything, there’s not…甚至不只是贵或者低效的问题，根本就没有……
Elon MuskNo.没有。
Lex FridmanThe actuators, everything has to be designed from scratch.驱动器，一切都得从头设计。
Elon MuskYeah. We tried hard to find anything that was… Because you think of how many electric motors are made in the world. There’s like tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of electric motor designs. None of them were suitable for a humanoid robot, literally none. So, we had to develop our own. Design it specifically for what a humanoid robot needs.对。我们拼命找过，因为你想想全球有多少电机在生产，几万种、几十万种电机设计，没有一种适合人形机器人，一种都没有。所以我们不得不自己开发，专门为人形机器人的需求定制设计。
Lex FridmanHow hard was it to design something that can be mass manufactured, it could be relatively and expensive? I mean, if you compare to Boston Dynamics’ Atlas, is a very expensive robot.设计出能够批量生产、成本相对可控的东西有多难？我是说，对比 Boston Dynamics 的 Atlas，那是一台非常昂贵的机器人。
Elon MuskIt is designed to be manufactured in the same way they would make a car. And I think, ultimately, we can make Optimus for less than the cost of a car. It should be, because if you look at the mass of the robot, it’s much smaller and the car has many actuators in it. The car has more actuators than the robot.它的设计目标是按照造汽车的方式来制造。我认为最终 Optimus 的成本可以比一辆汽车还低。应该可以，因为如果你看机器人的质量，它比汽车小得多，而汽车本身就有很多驱动器，甚至比机器人还多。
Lex FridmanBut the actuators are interesting on a humanoid robot with fingers. So, Optimus has really nice hands and fingers, and they could do some interesting manipulation, soft touch robotics.但人形机器人的驱动器很有意思，特别是手指。Optimus 的手和手指真的很精妙，能做一些有趣的操作，软触觉机器人技术那种。
Elon MuskI mean, one of the goals I have is can it pick up a needle and a thread and thread the needle just by looking?我的目标之一是——它能不能仅凭视觉，拿起一根针和一根线，把线穿进针眼里？
Lex FridmanHow far away are we from that? Just by looking, just by looking.这个要多久才能实现？纯靠视觉，纯靠看。
Elon MuskMaybe a year. Although, I go back to I’m optimistic on time. The work that we’re doing in the car will translate to the robot.也许一年吧。不过我还是回到那句话，我对时间表很乐观。汽车上做的工作会迁移到机器人上。
Lex FridmanThe perception or also the control?是感知层面，还是也包括控制层面？
Elon MuskNo, the controls are different. But the video in, controls out. The car is a robot on four wheels. Optimus is a robot with hands and legs.不，控制是不同的。但视频进来、控制信号出去这个范式是一样的。汽车是四个轮子上的机器人，Optimus 是有手有腿的机器人。
Lex FridmanSo, you can just-所以你只需要——
Elon MuskThey’re very similar.它们非常相似。
Lex FridmanSo, the entire machinery of the learning process, end-to-end, is just you just have a different set of controls?所以整个端到端的学习机制，不过就是换了一套不同的控制输出？
Elon MuskAfter this, we’ll figure out how to do things by watching videos.接下来，我们要搞清楚怎么通过看视频来学会做事。
Lex FridmanAs the saying goes, be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about.有句话说得好：善待他人，因为你遇到的每个人都在经历你一无所知的战斗。
Elon MuskYeah, it’s true.对，这是真的。
Lex FridmanWhat’s something difficult you’re going through that people don’t often see?你正在经历的，有什么是人们不常看到的艰难之事？
Elon MuskTrying to defeat Uber Lilith. I mean, my mind is a storm and I don’t think most people would want to be me. They may think they would want to be me, but they don’t. They don’t know, they don’t understand.想打过 Uber Lilith。我的意思是，我的脑子里永远是一场风暴，大多数人不会想成为我。他们可能以为自己想，但其实不想，他们不知道，他们不明白。
Lex FridmanHow are you doing?你现在还好吗？
Elon MuskI’m overall okay. In the grand scheme of things, I can’t complain.整体还行。从大局看，没什么好抱怨的。
Lex FridmanDo you get lonely?你会感到孤独吗？
Elon MuskSometimes, but my kids and friends keep me company.有时候会，但孩子们和朋友们陪着我。
Lex FridmanSo, not existential.所以不是那种存在主义意义上的孤独。
Elon MuskThere are many nights I sleep alone. I don’t have to, but I do.有很多夜晚我是一个人睡的。不是不得不，但我就是这样。
Lex FridmanWalter Isaacson, in his new biography of you, wrote about your difficult childhood. Will you ever find forgiveness in your heart for everything that has happened to you in that period of your life?Walter Isaacson 在他为你写的新传记里，写到了你艰难的童年。你有没有可能在内心深处，原谅那段岁月里发生的一切？
Elon MuskWhat is forgiveness? At least I don’t think I have a resentment, so nothing to forgive.什么是原谅？至少我觉得我没有怨恨，所以也没有什么需要原谅的。
Lex FridmanForgiveness is difficult for people. It seems like you don’t harbor their resentment.对很多人来说原谅是很难的事。看起来你并不怀有那种怨恨。
Elon MuskI mean, I try to think about, what is going to affect the future in a good way? And holding onto grudges does not affect the future in a good way.我尽量思考，什么事情能对未来产生正面影响？而抱着怨恨不放，对未来没有任何好处。
Lex FridmanYou’re a father, a proud father. What have you learned about life from your kids? Those little biological organisms.你是一个父亲，一个骄傲的父亲。你从孩子们身上，从那些小小的生命个体身上，学到了什么关于生命的东西？
Elon MuskI mean, developing AI and watching, say, little X grow is fascinating because there are far more parallels than I would’ve expected. I mean, I can see his biological neural net making more and more sense of the world. And I can see the digital neural net making more and more sense of the world at the same time.开发 AI 的同时看着小 X 成长，是一件非常迷人的事，因为这两件事之间的平行性比我预期的要多得多。我能看到他的生物神经网络一点一点理解这个世界，同时也能看到数字神经网络一点一点理解这个世界。
Lex FridmanDo you see the beauty and magic in both?你在两者中都看到了美和神奇吗？
Elon MuskYes. I mean, one of the things with kids is that you see the world anew in their eyes. To them, everything is new and fresh. And then, when you see that, them experiencing the world as new and fresh, you do too.是的。孩子带来的一件事是，你通过他们的眼睛重新看见这个世界。对他们来说，一切都是全新的、鲜活的。当你看到他们以全新和鲜活的方式体验这个世界，你也会如此。
Lex FridmanWell, Elon, I just want to say thank you for your kindness to me and friendship over the years, for seeing something in a silly kid like me, as you’ve done for many others. And thank you for having hope for a positive future for humanity, and for working your ass off to make it happen. Thank you, Elon.Elon，我只想说谢谢你这些年来对我的善意和友谊，谢谢你在我这个傻小子身上看到了什么，就像你对很多人做过的那样。也谢谢你对人类积极未来怀有希望，并拼尽全力去实现它。谢谢你，Elon。
Elon MuskThanks, Lex.谢谢你，Lex。
Lex FridmanThank you for listening to this conversation with Elon Musk. To support this podcast. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words that Walter Isaacson wrote about the central philosophy of how Elon approaches difficult problems, “The only rules are the ones dictated by the laws of physics.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.感谢你聆听这场与 Elon Musk 的对话。如需支持本播客，请查看简介中的赞助商信息。最后，让我以 Walter Isaacson 写下的 Elon 应对难题的核心哲学来结束这一切："唯一的规则，是物理定律所规定的规则。"感谢你的聆听，希望下次再见。