Peter Diamandis...audience, and as you can see, still trying to monetize hope. Yeah, yeah, you look like you're in great shape.……观众朋友们，如你们所见，还在尝试把希望变现。哈，对，你看起来状态非常好。
Elon MuskI'm doing great.我状态很好。
Peter DiamandisLast time I saw you, sort of youth serum things going on or what? It's our longevity X Prize. We're getting there, buddy. We're getting there. I think in our last conversation you're getting on board with the idea of extended longevity, yes?上次见你，好像有什么返老还童的东西在起作用？我们的长寿 X Prize 进展怎么样了，老伙计，我们快到了，快到了。我记得上次聊天时你开始认同延长寿命这个概念了，对吧？
Elon MuskUh, yeah.呃，对。
Peter DiamandisOkay. I'll leave it at that.好，就这样了。
Elon MuskSome degree. I mean, like, I don't know if we want everyone to live forever or whatever, but I think, uh, health span and not, you know, having an extended period of senescence where you're just drooling on yourself sounds like a good idea. We want to avoid that.某种程度上吧。我的意思是，我也不确定我们是否希望每个人都永远活着，但我觉得，呃，健康寿命这个概念不错——不要经历漫长的衰老期，坐在那里口水直流的状态——避免那种状况听起来是个好主意。我们要避开那种情形。
Peter DiamandisYeah. So, first off, congratulations on the merger of SpaceX and xAI. Baller move. Going to power humanity's first Dyson swarm? So, I'm curious, uh—好的。首先，恭喜 SpaceX 和 xAI 合并，这招真是霸气。这是要为人类的第一个 Dyson swarm 提供动力吗？我很好奇，呃——
Elon MuskIt truly truly is.确实如此，确实如此。
Peter DiamandisWhat's your timeline for launching these data centers and how much bandwidth do you think you can get in the first year? Give us a sense of the speed at which you're going to be making this happen.你们数据中心的上线时间表是怎样的？你认为第一年能达到多大的带宽？给我们讲讲你推进这件事的速度。
Elon MuskUh, yeah, so SpaceX has filed— SpaceX is in a quiet period. I can't actually, uh, tell you things that would cause a problems. Uh, yeah. I'll leave it at that.呃，是这样，SpaceX 已经提交了——SpaceX 正处于静默期，我实际上没办法告诉你那些会造成问题的信息。呃，就这样吧。
Peter DiamandisI appreciate that. But I can't wait for, uh, for the speed. You know, we had a conversation here on Monday with Eric Schmidt and with one of the leads from one of the other hyperscalers. I won't mention who, but I'm curious where you feel we are in recursive self-improvement. Are we there? Do you see Grok doing recursive self-improvement at this point? And what's the timeline for AGI and ASI? Give us a sense of that.我理解。但我非常期待那个速度。你知道，我们周一在这里和 Eric Schmidt 以及某个头部超大规模云厂商的负责人进行了对话，我就不说是谁了。我很好奇你觉得我们在递归自我改进方面处于什么阶段。我们到了吗？你看到 Grok 现在在做递归自我改进了吗？AGI 和 ASI 的时间表是什么？给我们一个大概的判断。
Elon MuskYeah, I think we've been on recursive improvement for a while here. Um, you say— if it's really, if you mean by like recursive self-improvement without a human in the loop. Is that what you mean?嗯，我觉得我们已经在递归改进的路上走了一段时间了。你说的——如果你真正指的是没有人类介入的递归自我改进，是那个意思吗？
Peter DiamandisI do. I, on the AI software side.是的，我指的是 AI 软件层面。
Elon MuskI mean, humans are gradually getting less and less in the loop on the recursive self-improvement. So, you know, every successive model is built by the one before it. So, that that is happening to a large degree, but it's not yet fully automated. Um, it may be there end of this year, but I'm not going to wait until the next year.我的意思是，人类在递归自我改进中的参与度正在越来越低。每一代新模型都是由上一代模型构建的，这在很大程度上已经在发生了，但还没有完全自动化。也许到今年年底能实现，但我不打算等到明年。
Peter DiamandisDo you see a hard takeoff at that point?你认为到那个时候会出现硬起飞吗？
Elon MuskWe're in the hard takeoff.我们已经在硬起飞中了。
Peter DiamandisRight now.就是现在。
Elon MuskYes. I mean, look at— I mean, at this point I go to sleep, there's some massive AI breakthrough, and when I wake up there's another one.对。我的意思是，你看——我现在去睡觉，AI 就发生了某个重大突破，等我醒来又是另一个突破。
Peter DiamandisYes. Yeah, it's hard to keep track, honestly. It's a bit of a head spinner. Yeah, well, I think a lot of that head spinning is happening from you, too.是的，说真的很难跟上，确实有点让人头晕。这股让人头晕的劲儿有很大一部分也来自你。
Elon MuskYeah. Uh, well, you know, Grok is doing pretty well, and in some metrics, by some metrics it's the best. For example, it's, uh, the best at predicting things, which, you know, it's arguably the best metric for intelligence. Um, the new Grok 4.20 is really really good. Um, we're currently behind on coding. Um, the reason I was put late for this was that I was just in a giant sort of all hands sort of on coding, just going through all of the things that need to happen to, uh, essentially catch up and exceed, uh, our competitors on, uh, coding, which I think we'll do. I feel— yeah, we should probably get there by the middle of this year.是啊。呃，你知道，Grok 表现相当不错，在某些指标上已经是最好的了。比如，它在预测方面是最强的，而这可以说是衡量智能最重要的指标。新的 Grok 4.20 真的非常非常好。目前我们在编程方面稍微落后。我来这里迟到的原因，就是我刚刚参加了一个大规模的全员会议，专门讨论编程问题，把所有需要做的事情过了一遍，基本上就是如何追上并超越我们的竞争对手。我觉得我们能做到。我感觉——我们应该能在今年年中前实现。
Elon MuskAnd then I think people don't quite realize just how much intelligence there will be, or, you know, just how far it will exceed human intelligence. To a degree that is, uh, impossible to fully understand. Um, but you can certainly imagine a situation where— let's say if a million times more energy is harnessed, uh, than all of Earth's current electricity usage. That would still only be roughly a millionth of the sun's energy output. So, essentially if you increase Earth's economy by a factor of a million, it's still roughly a trillion— so, since we're a trillionth of the sun's energy, if you increase Earth's economy in terms of electricity usage by roughly a million, you'll be roughly one millionth only of the sun's energy harnessed.然后我觉得人们还没有完全意识到将会有多少智能出现，或者说它超越人类智能的程度有多深——深到根本不可能完全理解的程度。但你可以设想这样一个场景：假设所利用的能量是地球当前全部用电量的一百万倍，这也仅仅是太阳能量输出的百万分之一左右。所以，如果把地球经济扩大一百万倍，换算成电力消耗，大约也只是太阳能量的百万分之一。
Elon MuskBut what is an economy or an intelligence using a million times more electricity than all of Earth's civilization think about or look like or do? It's going to be something pretty magnificent. Uh, the challenge will be even vaguely appreciating that level of intelligence. Uh, but it's safe to say it will solve everything you can possibly think of.但是，一个使用着比地球全部文明多一百万倍电力的经济体或智能体，会思考什么、长什么样、做什么事？那将会是相当壮观的东西。挑战在于，我们甚至很难模糊地领会那种程度的智能。但可以肯定地说，它会解决你能想到的一切问题。
Peter DiamandisYes. Uh, longevity being, you know, certainly one of them. Um, and, um, I do enjoy your unrelenting optimism. Um—是的。长寿当然是其中之一。嗯，我很欣赏你那种一往无前的乐观主义。呃——
Elon MuskThank you, pal. I see you if you, uh—谢谢，老兄。我看你——
Peter DiamandisHope. Hope. Yeah, exactly. You've taken to heart monetizing hope, uh, which is pretty funny.希望，希望。对，没错。你真的把「把希望变现」放在心上了，这挺有意思的。
Elon MuskYeah, it was— it was Grok's marketing advice to me when you roasted me on—哈，那是——那是 Grok 给我的营销建议，就是你那次调侃我的时候——
Peter DiamandisRight. Okay. Grok was seeing you and saying you monetize hope. But hey, if you— you're going to manage to further monetizing misery—对。好。Grok 看着你说你是靠贩卖希望赚钱的。但是，如果你——你还能继续把悲观情绪变现——
Elon MuskYes, but yes. Um, for sure. Yeah. Um, but but yeah, just the— when you have AI— AI and robots are going to increase the like economic output by so many orders of magnitude we cannot possibly comprehend it. We're likely in the very short time to become a minority, then a vast minority, then a microscopic minority of intelligence on this planet.对，但是，是啊。当然。嗯。是这样——当有了 AI——AI 和机器人将把经济产出提高到我们根本无法理解的量级。在很短的时间内，我们人类很可能先变成少数，然后是极少数，最终成为这个星球上智能体的沧海一粟。
Peter DiamandisYes, not even on this planet, but in the solar system.是的，不只是这个星球，而是整个太阳系。
Elon MuskYes, for sure. Because, um, like if— if you know, your best case outcome for, uh, Earth for intelligence is roughly one billionth of the sun's energy. Uh, that's your best case outcome. Uh, if you generate intelligence only on Earth. Intercept it, right?对，当然。因为，如果说——地球上的智能，最好的情况下大概能利用太阳能量的十亿分之一。仅限在地球上产生智能、拦截太阳能的话，这就是你的最优结果，对吧？
Peter DiamandisYes.是的。
Elon MuskYes, 'cause roughly— roughly half a billionth of the sun's energy hits Earth, and that's the vast majority of energy that's out there, um, that we can access. Uh, so, uh, really the intelligence in the solar system will be many orders of magnitude greater than the intelligence on Earth itself.对，因为大约有二十亿分之一的太阳能量照射到地球，而那已经是我们能够获取的绝大部分能量了。所以，整个太阳系中的智能将比地球本身上的智能高出许多个数量级。
Peter DiamandisMay I ask you a question, Elon? Um, how far out can you see? How many years out can you make reasonable predictions right now?我能问你一个问题吗，Elon？你现在能看多远？你现在能对未来多少年做出合理的预测？
Elon MuskIt's hard to predict the path exactly, especially if it— 'cause often things are kind of an S curve or a series of S curves where it starts off slow, grows exponentially, hits linear zone and then goes logarithmic. Um, that generally has been what I've seen with the breakthroughs in AI. AI, for example, is you'll— there'll be some breakthrough, it'll do— have an S curve, but and then looks like it's just going to go to infinity, but then you hit logarithmic returns until there's another breakthrough.很难精确预测路径，尤其是因为——很多时候事物的发展呈 S 曲线，或者说一系列 S 曲线：起步缓慢，然后指数增长，进入线性区，再变成对数增长。这基本上就是我观察到的 AI 突破的规律。AI 举个例子，会有某个突破，呈现 S 曲线，看起来像是要趋向无穷大，但随后进入对数回报阶段，直到下一个突破出现。
Peter DiamandisYeah.是的。
Elon MuskSo progress in AI is just a sort of series of, you know, sort of overlapping S curves, um, or connected S curves.所以 AI 的进步就是一系列相互交叠的 S 曲线，或者说首尾相连的 S 曲线。
Peter DiamandisUm, I mean, there was a point where you could probably predict out a decade or two decades. What are your thoughts now?嗯，我的意思是，曾经有一段时间你大概能预测一两个十年的走势。你现在怎么看？
Elon MuskYeah. Okay, this is going to sound pretty crazy.好，这听起来可能相当疯狂。
Peter DiamandisThat's okay. We've been talking about crazy all night. There's a separate acceptable audience to wild prognostications. Yes.没关系，我们今晚一直在谈论各种疯狂的事情。在座的观众本来就接受大胆预言的，是的。
Elon MuskUm, I'd say the economy is 10 times its current size in 10 years. Greater than.嗯，我认为经济规模在 10 年内会扩大到现在的 10 倍。只多不少。
Peter DiamandisOkay. Um, yeah, you really saying something. Yeah, you said triple digit growth in 5 plus years from now on on GDP. And 10x the economy. But in terms of your ability to—好，嗯，你说的很有分量。是的，你说过从现在算起 5 年以上 GDP 将实现三位数增长，以及经济 10 倍的预测。但就你的能力而言——
Elon MuskLike I feel like that's, uh, that's a 10x in roughly 10 years, um, I feel is a— I actually feel like comfortable prediction, uh, with— there's obviously if there's like World War or something, um, that that could put a kink in those plans, uh, or those expectations. Yeah. Uh, but in the absence of World War, current trends continue, I would say the economy 10x in 10 years.我觉得——大约 10 年内经济 10 倍，这其实是我觉得可以稳妥预测的事。当然，如果爆发世界大战之类的，那可能会打乱这些计划或预期。是的。但如果没有世界大战，当前趋势持续，我认为经济 10 年内扩大 10 倍。
Peter DiamandisLove it. Can you give us an— We had a bunch of robots— have a base on the moon. Yes. And we'll have people on Mars. And we'll have mass drivers on the moon. Yes.喜欢。你能给我们描述一下——我们会有一堆机器人——在月球上建立基地。是的。我们会有人在火星上。我们会在月球上建质量驱动器。对吗？
Elon MuskI think so. In 10 years, I think we'll have a mass driver on the moon in 10 years.我认为会。10 年内，我认为我们会在月球上建一个质量驱动器。
Peter DiamandisI love it. Uh, Gerard K. O'Neill's vision, uh, being fulfilled. Uh, we had, uh, four robots on stage here this year, um, on the— at the Abundance Summit. I look forward to Optimus. I'm curious, Optimus 3 timeline and in particular when can I buy one or two? When do you expect Optimus to go into commercial, uh, for commercial sale? Or will you be leasing it?太好了。Gerard K. O'Neill 的愿景就要实现了。今年我们的 Abundance Summit 上有四台机器人登台，我很期待 Optimus。我很好奇 Optimus 3 的时间表，特别是我什么时候能买到一两台？你预计 Optimus 什么时候会开始商业销售？还是说你们会租赁模式？
Elon MuskWell, we're in the final stages of completion of Optimus 3, which is really going to be by far the most advanced robot in the world. Nothing's even close. Yeah. Um, in fact, I haven't even seen any— seen any demos of robots that are as good as Optimus 3, frankly. Maybe they're out there or they're secret or something, I don't know, but, um— You know, I have to make sure I'm saying things that are reasonably public as well, of course.嗯，我们正处于 Optimus 3 完成的最后阶段，它将是世界上迄今为止最先进的机器人，没有任何东西能与之相提并论。是的。其实，我都没见过任何机器人的 demo 能比得上 Optimus 3，说实话。也许有，或者还是保密状态，我不知道，但是——你知道，我也得确保我说的都是合理公开的信息。
Peter DiamandisUh, of course. We're streaming this on X.当然，我们正在 X 上直播这个。
Elon MuskYeah. Okay, this is pretty public knowledge, I guess. Yes. Um, yeah, I think we'll start production on Optimus 3 this summer. Um, but but very slow at first. Yeah. Um, like, you know, the sort of classic S curve ramp of manufacturing units versus time. Um, and then probably reach high volume production around summer next year. Uh, and then, um, you know, we'll have Optimus 4— you know, the design likely next year. I got to try to release a new robot design every year, an improved robot design every year.嗯，好，这应该是公开的信息了。是的。嗯，我认为我们将在今年夏天开始生产 Optimus 3。但一开始产量会非常低。嗯，就像那种经典的制造量对时间的 S 曲线爬坡。然后大概到明年夏天前后达到高产量。然后，嗯，你知道，我们明年可能会有 Optimus 4——明年可能会有设计方案。我努力争取每年发布一个新机器人设计，每年改进一代。
Peter DiamandisWhen Dave Blundin and I were at the Gigafactory, uh, it was extraordinary experience, 11 and a half million square feet for the Tesla. And then I think you said you're building out 9 and a half million square feet for Optimus there as well, which is, uh, which is extraordinary. Um, let's let's—我和 Dave Blundin 去参观那个 Gigafactory 时，那是一次非凡的体验，为 Tesla 服务的厂区有 1150 万平方英尺。然后我记得你说还要为 Optimus 在那里扩建 950 万平方英尺，这也相当惊人。嗯，我们来——
Elon Musk9 square feet— round numbers. Yeah.900 万平方英尺——约数，是的。
Peter DiamandisYeah. Yeah.对，是的。
Elon MuskI had to— that'll be— that that's going to be a— a new factory design, too. Like it's still not different from other factories.我必须——那将会是一种全新的工厂设计，与其他工厂有所不同。
Peter DiamandisHow far before we have robots building robots? I mean, you automated so much of the Gigafactory already, uh, where there are humans playing a small role. Do the robots just play the role that humans are playing in that regard?机器人建造机器人还要多久才能实现？你已经把 Gigafactory 自动化了很多，人类只扮演很小的角色。机器人会不会直接接替人类在那里扮演的角色？
Elon MuskUh, we still have a lot of humans building things. Mhm. Um, you know, Tesla direct employees are, uh, building things, uh, or like basically people in the factory are either building or managing people who are building. Uh, roughly 100,000. Uh, so we have a lot of people. Tesla total head count is around 150k. Of which two-thirds are, you know, in the factory in one form or another. And then our suppliers— there's probably, uh, maybe a million or two million people in our suppliers type of thing. So, it's a lot of people.呃，我们还是有很多人在做制造。嗯，Tesla 的直接雇员在生产或者说工厂里的人，要么在制造，要么在管理制造工人。大约 100,000 人左右。所以我们有很多人。Tesla 总员工人数大约是 150k，其中三分之二以不同形式在工厂工作。然后我们的供应商——供应链上大概有一两百万人。所以这是很多人。
Elon MuskUm, what we do expect that is that the output per person at Tesla becomes very, very high. Yeah. So, we're not planning any like layoffs or reductions in personnel. In fact, we will increase our head count. Um, but the output per human at Tesla is going to get nutty high. Like you can't really believe it, you know.我们预期的是，Tesla 每个人的产出会变得非常非常高。是的。所以我们没有计划裁员或缩减人员。事实上，我们会增加员工人数。但 Tesla 每个人的产出会高到令人难以置信的程度，你根本想象不到。
Peter DiamandisWhen we were together, um, we discussed the idea of sustainable abundance on our podcast and you reinforced the idea that we have a coming age of universal high income, uh, which has become a point of discussion beyond UBI. But, I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on how we get there. Have you reflected on that any further? And and more so, you know, we talked about a time frame of civil unrest, you know, two, three, four, five years, uh, probably, uh, a lot of COVID-like checks in the interim until we get to a demonetization, uh, and a, you know, deflation that leads us to UHI. Any more reflections on that? 'Cause that's a really— people need that hope and that vision.我们上次在一起时，讨论过「可持续的富足」这个概念，你在我们的播客里强调了人类即将进入全民高收入时代——这已经超越了 UBI 讨论成为一个话题。我想知道你有没有思考过我们如何走到那一步。你有没有进一步反思过这个问题？更重要的是，我们谈到过未来两三四五年内可能出现社会动荡的时间窗口，期间可能会有类似 COVID 那样的补贴支票作为过渡，直到我们走到非货币化、通货紧缩，进而实现 UHI。你对此有没有更多的想法？因为这真的——人们需要那种希望和愿景。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, to be clear, I don't— I don't think we should be sort of complacent. We do need to be careful because the future is a range of possible outcomes and, uh, they're not all great. Um, but I— at this point I do agree with you that it's likely to be great. Um, you know, it's probably 80% likely, maybe more likely to be great.是啊。我的意思是，说清楚点，我不认为我们应该掉以轻心。我们确实需要谨慎，因为未来是一系列可能的结果，而并非所有结果都是好的。但我——到了现在，我确实同意你的判断，结果很可能是美好的。大概有 80% 的可能性，甚至更高，会是好的结果。
Elon MuskAnd, uh, and I do think we'll have universal high income. We're just issuing money to people, you know, and they are really just, uh— because the output of goods and services will so far exceed the money supply that, um, you know, that that effectively have deflation. 'Cause just deflation is just the ratio of the outputs of goods and services to the money supply. Um, so, that's— uh, so if the rate of growth of of goods and services far exceeds the rate of growth of the money supply, which I predict will happen, uh, then, uh, you'll have deflation.我也认为我们将会有全民高收入。基本上就是直接给人们发钱，因为商品和服务的产出会远远超过货币供应量，实际上就会出现通货紧缩。因为通货紧缩不过就是商品和服务产出与货币供应量的比值。所以，如果商品和服务的增速远超货币供应量的增速——我预计会发生这种情况——那你就会有通货紧缩。
Peter DiamandisYes. And a lot of people spinning up new companies, competing against each other, driving the price down, and increasing the variability and deflation. Faster and faster.是的。而且还会有大量新公司涌现，相互竞争，把价格打下去，加速通货紧缩，越来越快。
Elon MuskYeah, it's basically AI and robots are going to make so much stuff and provide so many services that, uh, they'll actually run out of things to do for the humans. They'll just run out of things to do for the humans. And then they'll, you know— there's only so much that humans can even express that they want. So, you go back to my example of like if you go a million times greater than the US economy, you've long since saturated all human desire. Uh, you know, like maybe like even if you go a thousand times more than our current economy, thousand times, you you've probably already saturated the human— anything people can think of that they want.对，基本上 AI 和机器人将会创造出如此多的商品并提供如此多的服务，以至于它们实际上会用光能为人类做的事情。它们就是会耗尽能为人类做的事情。然后，你知道——人类能表达的欲望是有限的。所以回到我之前那个例子，如果经济规模扩大到当前的一百万倍，你早就满足了人类的所有欲望。就算只扩大一千倍，你可能就已经满足了人们能想到的一切需求了。
Peter DiamandisSo, do you think the value of money is going to significantly decrease? Will we go post-capitalist?那你认为金钱的价值会显著降低吗？我们会进入后资本主义社会吗？
Elon MuskYeah, I think money will stop being relevant at some point in the future. So, just as you're becoming a— it's probably something like an Iain Banks Culture sort of future. Um, and I think the AI down the road will really not use, uh, human currency. It will just care about, uh, power and mass, wattage and tonnage.是的，我认为货币在未来某个时间点会变得不再重要。就像 Iain Banks 的《文化》系列那样的未来吧。而且我觉得未来的 AI 根本不会使用人类货币，它关心的将是功率和质量，也就是瓦特和吨位。
Peter DiamandisYeah. It's kind of ironic then, right? Just as you're becoming a multi-trillionaire, money starts to have less value. Um—是的，这有点讽刺，对吧？就在你成为万亿富翁的同时，金钱却开始变得不那么重要了。嗯——
Elon MuskYeah. Pretty much. Um, uh, yeah. You know, this all this stuff is just really— just trillionaire sort of represents like some percentage ownership in companies that I have, uh, you know, built, and it's not like sitting in a bank account, you know, it's just literally I own a percentage of the companies. The companies are doing lots of useful things. The value of the company grows. I own a percentage of the companies and that's the— sums up to that number which seems high.是的，差不多就是这样。嗯。所有这些财富只是代表我在自己创建的这些公司里的某个股权比例，又不是放在银行账户里的现金，就字面意义上来说是我持有这些公司的一部分股份，这些公司在做很多有意义的事情，公司的价值增长，我持有一部分股份，加总起来就是那个看起来很高的数字。
Peter DiamandisYeah. You know, I was interviewed by somebody who was asking me about your drive, what drives you. And I said, Elon's driven to solve problems. He's driven to make life in the world better by just solving the biggest problems over and over and over again. And if someone else were solving them, he wouldn't need to. But no one else is solving them. So, I just want to say— thank you for that, pal. Thank you for that.是的，你知道，有人采访我，问是什么在驱动你。我说，Elon 是被解决问题的欲望驱动的，他驱动自己通过不断解决最大的难题来让世界变得更好。如果有其他人在解决这些问题，他就不需要了。但是没有其他人在解决，所以——我只想说，谢谢你，老伙计。谢谢你。
Elon MuskUh, you're welcome. Um—呃，不客气。嗯——
Peter DiamandisI am curious. Do you think that democracy and our modern institutions can keep up with a supersonic tsunami coming our way? Are they just going to fall in its way? They're just going to break down. How do we deal?我很好奇，你认为民主和我们现代的制度能跟上即将到来的超音速海啸吗？还是说这些制度只会挡在它面前然后被击垮？它们只会崩溃。我们该怎么应对？
Elon MuskI mean, it's called the singularity for a reason, you know, which is that it's hard to predict what happens in the in the singularity. I mean, Grok's logo is the singularity.我的意思是，它之所以叫奇点是有原因的，就是你很难预测在奇点内部会发生什么。Grok 的 logo 就是奇点。
Peter DiamandisI love it. It's a beautiful logo behind you, by the way. It's gorgeous.太喜欢了。顺便说一下，你身后那个 logo 非常漂亮，真的很好看。
Elon MuskYeah, thank you. Uh, yeah. It's sort of the light— the halo around a black hole is that the mass and light are falling in type of thing. Um, it's hard to know what happens inside the singularity. Um, but it's going to be very interesting. We're going to live in— the future will be very entertaining. Of that I'm confident.谢谢。是的，那是黑洞周围的光晕，质量和光都在向里坠落的那种感觉。很难知道奇点内部会发生什么，但将会非常有意思。我们即将生活的未来将会非常精彩。这一点我确信无疑。
Peter DiamandisYes.是的。
Elon MuskUm, and, uh, I think also like AI and robotics also— I mean, we're going to solve our budget deficit, frankly, and not just go bankrupt as a country.嗯，还有，我认为 AI 和机器人也会——说真的，我们会解决财政赤字问题，不会就这么作为一个国家走向破产。
Peter DiamandisUm, so— I'm— You know, you've had an influence on me in that I'm like just— I've just decided to be more optimistic. It's like we just should be more optimistic.嗯，所以——你知道，你影响了我，让我决定变得更乐观。我现在就是——我决定要更乐观了。
Elon MuskThank you, pal.谢谢，老伙计。
Peter DiamandisI wasn't an optimist, but I was like maybe dwelling a little too much on the negative stuff.我不是一个悲观主义者，但可能对负面的东西过于关注了。
Elon MuskIt's all upside being an optimist.做个乐观主义者全是好处。
Peter DiamandisAnd a realist a little bit.再加上一点现实主义。
Elon MuskYeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You don't want to be complacent or just assume everything's going to go well, but try to make it go well. Um, but I mean, there will be some pretty amazing things that happen. So, if you've got, uh, humanoid robots that have very high dexterity and, uh, and are incredibly smart, it means that everyone on Earth will have access to better medical care than, uh, than the richest person on Earth, which, by the way, I would say like, you know, if I'm allegedly the richest person in the world— I think actually sovereigns are richer than me, by the way. But it's like— I had to have like a neck surgery three times 'cause the first two ones were done wrong. You know, like this is— I'm like, what the— you know. Um, so— and I'm like, my back still hurts a little bit. I'm like, can AI please solve back pain? That would be a huge win. And I think it will.是的，是的，没错。你不想掉以轻心或者就假设一切都会顺利，但要努力让它顺利。嗯，我的意思是，确实会有一些相当惊人的事情发生。如果你拥有了灵巧度非常高而且极其聪明的人形机器人，那意味着地球上的每一个人都将获得比现在地球上最富有的人更好的医疗保障——顺便说一下，我据说是世界上最富有的人，虽然我认为主权国家的财富比我多——但像我，颈部手术做了三次，因为前两次做错了。你知道，这就是——我当时在想，搞什么啊。我的背还有点酸痛，我就在想，AI 能不能解决背痛问题？那将是一个巨大的胜利。我认为它会的。
Elon MuskYep. So, you know, back pain sucks. I think that's maybe like a— you know, someone asked why do people get grumpy when they get older? It's 'cause back pain. You know, it's like if your back hurts all the time you can't sleep well, you're going to be grumpy.是的，你知道，背痛真的很折磨人。我觉得这也许解释了一个问题——有人问为什么人老了会变得暴躁？就是因为背痛。你背一直痛、睡不好，自然会烦躁。
Peter DiamandisWe had, uh— we had David Sinclair on stage this morning and he's going into human trials with ERW 100, his partial epigenetic reprogramming. And, uh, one of the papers recently published shows it, uh, enables joint repair. And so back pain may be one of the things that, uh, it eliminates.今天上午我们请到了 David Sinclair 上台，他正在对 ERW 100 进行人体试验，这是他的部分表观遗传重编程方法。最近发表的一篇论文显示，它能促进关节修复。所以背痛可能是它能消除的问题之一。
Elon MuskUh, that'll be amazing. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Every— honestly average happiness level for humans would just go up so tremendously if you just solve back pain because it's not a question of if you will get back pain, it's when, you know, you'll get back pain.那太棒了，当然，当然。说真的，如果你仅仅解决了背痛问题，人类的平均幸福感就会大幅提升，因为背痛不是「会不会」的问题，而是「什么时候」的问题，你总归会遇到背痛的。
Peter DiamandisI keep on inviting you to come down to Fountain Life in Dallas. We'll help you out, but sometime when you have time.我一直邀请你来 Dallas 的 Fountain Life，我们来帮你，等什么时候你有时间来。
Elon MuskYou have like— what do you— I understand like you can get like MRI and CAT scans and everything, but like what do you do with that? You know, it's like—你们那里有什么——我知道你们能做核磁共振和 CT 扫描之类的，但发现问题之后能做什么呢？就是——
Peter DiamandisI'm happy to send you the list. I'll DM you the list of therapeutics or something.我很乐意把清单发给你，我会 DM 你治疗方案之类的清单。
Elon MuskYeah, exactly.好的，好的。
Peter DiamandisUh, you know, um, listen, you've been so generous. Next up on stage with me is one of— another great Moonshot entrepreneur, Ben Lamm, who runs Colossal, uh, the de-extinction company. Uh, you know, the woolly mammoth and 15 other species. I heard you say you might want a mini woolly mammoth. Is that true?嗯，你知道，嗯，你真的太慷慨了。接下来上台和我对话的是另一位伟大的 Moonshot 创业者 Ben Lamm，他是 Colossal 的创始人——那家去灭绝公司，你知道，长毛猛犸象和另外 15 个物种的复活项目。我听说你说过你想要一只迷你长毛猛犸象，是真的吗？
Elon MuskYeah, I think it'd be really cool to have a pet miniature woolly mammoth. That'd be pretty epic.是的，我觉得养一只迷你长毛猛犸象作为宠物会非常酷，真的太史诗了。
Peter DiamandisOkay. I'll put a word in for you with, uh, with Ben. They're very adorable. Little things just running around trumpeting away and it's like, look at this— this would be a great little pet.好的，我帮你跟 Ben 说一声。它们非常可爱，小家伙到处跑、吹着鼻子叫，就像——看看这个——这会是一只很棒的小宠物。
Elon MuskAmazing. And also, can somebody please do Jurassic Park in real life? I'd definitely go out even if there was some risk of death. That'd be super cool.太惊艳了。还有，能不能有人在现实中搞一个侏罗纪公园？就算有一点死亡风险我也肯定会去，那太酷了。
Peter DiamandisI think if anybody's going to do that it's Ben Lamm in Colossal. He's— he's engineering living life products. Someone asked him recently if he can make a Pikachu and he said probably. I think—我觉得如果有谁能做到，就是 Ben Lamm 和 Colossal。他在工程化有生命的生物产品。有人最近问他能不能造一只皮卡丘，他说大概可以。我觉得——
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Peter DiamandisWell, Jurassic World or whatever, that would be great. All right, I'll ask him. Elon, so grateful for you coming and joining us and sharing.好吧，Jurassic World 或者类似的，那会很棒。好，我会问他的。Elon，非常感谢你的到来和分享。
Elon MuskThank you my friend.谢谢你，我的朋友。
Peter DiamandisThank you my friend. Let's give it up for Elon Musk.谢谢你，我的朋友。让我们为 Elon Musk 鼓掌。
OtherI have the power. Nothing's going to stop us. You have the power.我有力量，没有什么能阻挡我们。你也有力量。