Joe RoganWelcome back.欢迎回来。
Elon MuskHere we go again.又来了。
Joe RoganGreat to see you, and congratulations.很高兴见到你，恭喜你。
Elon MuskThank you.谢谢。
Joe RoganYou will never forget what is going on in the world when you think about when your child is born. You will know for the rest of this child’s life; you were born during a weird time.你永远不会忘记孩子出生时世界正在发生的事情。这孩子活着的每一天，你都会记得：你是在一个奇怪的时代出生的。
Elon MuskThat’s for sure.那是肯定的。
Joe RoganThat is for sure. Probably the weirdest that I can remember.那是肯定的。可能是我记忆中最奇怪的一段时期。
Elon MuskYeah, and he was born on May the fourth.是啊，他是5月4日出生的。
Joe RoganThat’s hilarious, too. May the fourth be with him.这也太有趣了。愿原力与他同在（May the fourth be with him）。
Elon MuskYes, exactly.没错，就是这样。
Joe RoganIt has to be.一定得这样。
Elon MuskHopefully. I sure hope so.希望如此。我真心希望。
Joe RoganPerfect.完美。
Elon MuskYes.是的。
Joe RoganI mean, that was the perfect day for you. How do you say the name? Is it a placeholder?那真是绝妙的日子。这个名字怎么念？是个占位符吗？
Elon MuskFirst of all, my partner is the one that actually mostly came up with the name.首先，这个名字主要是我伴侣想出来的。
Joe RoganCongratulations to her.恭喜她。
Elon MuskYeah. She’s great at names. I mean, it’s just X, the letter X, and then the Æ is like pronounced ‘ash’. Yeah, and then A-XII is my contribution.是的，她很擅长起名字。就是字母 X，然后 Æ 发音类似"ash"，A-XII 是我的贡献。
Joe RoganOh, why A-XII?哦，为什么是 A-XII？
Elon MuskArchangel 12 , the precursor to the SR-71. Coolest plane ever. True.Archangel 12，SR-71 的前身。史上最酷的飞机，没有之一。
Joe RoganI agree with you. I don’t know. I’m not familiar with it. I know what the SR-71 is.我同意你的说法。不过我对它不太了解，我只知道 SR-71。
Elon MuskThe SR-71 came from a CIA program called Archangel. It’s the Archangel project.SR-71 来自一个 CIA 项目，叫 Archangel，也就是天使长项目。
Joe RoganOh wow, what a dope-looking plane. Well, as a person who’s very much into aerial travel as you are, that’s perfect.哇，那真是一架很帅的飞机。作为一个和你一样非常迷航空飞行的人，这个名字再合适不过了。
Elon MuskIt’s pretty great.相当不错。
Joe RoganYeah. Pretty great. Does it feel strange to have a child while this craziness is going? Does it feel like you’ve had children before? Is this any weirder?是啊，相当不错。在这种疯狂的时刻迎来一个孩子，感觉奇怪吗？你以前也有过孩子，这次有没有更奇怪？
Elon MuskActually, I think it’s better being older and having a kid. I appreciate it more. Yeah, babies are awesome.其实我觉得年纪大了再有孩子反而更好。我更懂得珍惜了。是的，婴儿太棒了。
Joe RoganThey are pretty awesome.确实挺棒的。
Elon MuskThey’re awesome. Yeah.很棒，是的。
Joe RoganWhen I didn’t have any of my own, I would see other people’s kids, and I didn’t not like them, but I wasn’t drawn to them. But now, when I see little people’s kids, I’m like, Oh, I think of them as like these little love packages.我还没有自己的孩子时，看到别人的孩子，我并不讨厌他们，但也没有特别的感觉。但现在，当我看到小孩子，我会觉得，哦，他们就像是一个个小小的爱的礼包。
Elon MuskYeah, little love bugs.是啊，爱的小虫子。
Joe RoganYeah. It’s just you think of them differently when you see them come out and then grow and then eventually start talking to you, like your whole idea what a baby is, is very different.是的。当你看着他们出生、成长，然后开始跟你说话，你对"婴儿"这件事的整个认知都会变得截然不同。
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Joe RoganNow, as you get older and get to appreciate it as a mature, fully formed adult, it must be really pretty wonderful.现在你年纪大了，作为一个成熟、完整的成年人去体验这一切，一定非常美好吧。
Elon MuskYeah. Great. Wonderful. It’s great. But babies are awesome. Yeah, it’s great. Also, I’ve spent a lot of time on AI and neural nets and so you can sort of see the brain develop, which is … An AI neural net is trying to simulate what a brain does, basically. You can sort of see it learning very quickly. You know, it’s just wow.是的，太棒了，很美好，非常好。婴儿真的很棒。而且，我在 AI 和神经网络上花了很多时间，所以你某种程度上可以亲眼看到大脑在发育——AI 神经网络本质上就是在模拟大脑的运作。你能看到它学习得非常之快，真的让人叹为观止。
Joe RoganYou’re talking about the neural net; you’re not talking about an actual baby.你说的是神经网络，不是真正的婴儿吧？
Elon MuskI don’t talk about an actual baby.我说的不是真正的婴儿。
Joe RoganBut both of them.但两者都有。
Elon MuskYes. The word neural net comes from the brain. It’s like a net of neurons. Humans are the original gangster of the neural net.是的。"神经网络"这个词本来就来自大脑，它就是神经元构成的网络。人类才是神经网络的鼻祖。
Joe RoganThat’s a great way to put it.这个说法太妙了。
Elon MuskYeah.是啊。
Joe RoganWhen you’re programming artificial intelligence where you’re working with artificial intelligence art, are they specifically trying to mimic the developmental process of a human brain?当你在编程或研究人工智能艺术的时候，它们是在专门尝试模仿人类大脑的发育过程吗？
Elon MuskIn a lot of ways. There’s some ways that are different. An analogy that’s often used is like we don’t make a submarine swim like a fish, but we take the principles of hydrodynamics and apply them to the submarine.在很多方面是的。也有一些地方是不同的。常用的一个类比是：我们不会让潜水艇像鱼一样游泳，但我们会把流体动力学的原理应用到潜水艇上。
Joe RoganI’ve always wondered as a layperson, do you try to achieve the same results as the human brain but through different methods? Or do you try to copy the way a human brain achieves results?我作为外行一直有个疑问：你们是试图通过不同的方法实现与人类大脑相同的结果，还是试图复制人类大脑实现结果的方式？
Elon MuskI mean, the essential elements of an AI neural net are really very similar to a human brain neural net. Yeah. It’s having the multiple layers of neurons and, you know, backpropagation . All these things are what your brain does. You have a layer of neurons that goes through a series of intermediate steps to ultimately cognition, and then it’ll reverse those steps and go back and forth and go all over the place. It’s interesting. Very interesting.AI 神经网络的核心要素和人脑神经网络其实非常相似。多层神经元、反向传播，这些都是你的大脑在做的事情。你有一层神经元，经过一系列中间步骤最终形成认知，然后又会逆向这些步骤，来回穿梭，四处游走。非常有意思，真的很有意思。
Joe RoganYeah, I would imagine. The thought of programming something that is eventually going to be smarter than us that one day it’s going to be like: “Why did you do it that way?” When artificial intelligence becomes sentient, they’re like: “Oh, you tried to mimic yourself. This is so much better process. Cut out all this nonsense.”是的，我能想象到。要编程出一个终将比我们更聪明的东西，总有一天它会说："你为什么要那么做？"等人工智能有了意识，它们会说："哦，你们试图模仿自己，这个方法要好得多，把那些废话都扔掉。"
Elon MuskLike I said, there are elements that are the same but just like an aircraft does not fly like a bird.就像我说的，有些要素是相同的，就像飞机飞行的方式和鸟不一样。
Joe RoganRight.对。
Elon MuskIt doesn’t flap its wings, but the wings, the way the wings work and generate lift is the same as a bird.飞机不会扇动翅膀，但机翼产生升力的方式和鸟是一样的。
Joe RoganNow you’re in the middle of this strange time where you’re selling your houses. You say you don’t want any material possessions, and I’ve been seeing all that, and I’ve been really excited to talk to you about this. Because it’s an interesting thing to come from a guy like yourself. Like why are you doing that?现在你正处于这段奇怪的时期，在卖房子，说自己不想要任何物质财产。我一直在关注这些，非常想跟你聊这件事，因为从你这样的人口中说出来，实在很有意思。你为什么要这么做？
Elon MuskI’m slightly sad about it, actually.说实话，我有点难过。
Joe RoganIf you’re sad about it, why are you doing it?如果你感到难过，为什么还要这么做？
Elon MuskI think possessions kind of weigh you down, and they’re kind of an attack vector. They’ll say, “Hey, billionaire, you’ve got all this stuff.” Well, now I don’t have stuff now. What are you going to do?我觉得财产会压垮你，而且它们是一个攻击向量。他们会说："瞧这个亿万富翁，有这么多东西。"但现在我什么都没有了，你能拿我怎样？
Joe RoganAttack vector meaning like people targeted.攻击向量的意思是说，人们会把你当目标。
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Joe RoganInteresting, yeah. But you’re obviously going to, so you’re going to rent a place?有意思，是的。但你还是要住某个地方，所以你打算租房？
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Joe RoganOkay, and get rid of everything except clothes?好的，然后把所有东西都处理掉，就留几件衣服？
Elon MuskNo, I said almost everything, so it’s like…不，我说的是几乎所有东西，所以是……
Joe RoganKeep a couple of Teslas.留几辆 Tesla。
Elon MuskKind of have to, to test product and stuff. You know, there’s things that have sentimental value, for sure are keeping those. I mean, what’s the worst that could happen? I mean, I’m fine.那是必须的，用来测试产品什么的。有些东西有情感价值，当然会留着。最坏的情况又能怎样？我没问题的。
Joe RoganYeah, you can always buy more stuff if you don’t like it.是的，如果你不喜欢，还可以随时再买。
Elon MuskI suppose so.我想是这样。
Joe RoganYeah, I mean from the money that you sell all your stuff, you can buy new stuff. Do you feel like people define you by the fact that you’re wealthy and that they define you in a pejorative way?对啊，卖掉东西的钱可以买新的。你有没有觉得人们用"有钱"来定义你，而且是以一种贬义的方式？
Elon MuskFor sure. I mean not everyone, but for sure, in recent years, ‘billionaire’ has become pejorative like that’s a bad thing. Which I think doesn’t make a lot of sense in most cases. If you basically organized a company… How does this wealth arise? If you organize people in a better way to produce products and services that are better than what existed before, and you have some ownership in that company, then that essentially gives you the right to allocate more capital. There’s a conflation of consumption and capital allocation.当然有。不是所有人，但确实，近几年"亿万富翁"变成了一个贬义词，好像这是件坏事。我觉得大多数情况下这说不通。如果你把一家公司组织得更好，生产出比以前更好的产品和服务，然后你在这家公司里有一定所有权，那本质上就给了你分配更多资本的权利。人们把消费和资本分配混为一谈了。
Elon MuskTake Warren Buffet, for example, and to be totally frank, I’m not his biggest fan, but you know, he does like have full allocation, and he reads a lot of annual reports of companies and all the accounting, and it’s pretty boring really. He’s trying to figure out does Coke or Pepsi deserve more capital?就拿 Warren Buffett 来说，说实话我不是他最大的粉丝，但他确实有完整的资本分配能力——他读大量公司年报和财务报表，挺无聊的。他在研究的是 Coke 还是 Pepsi 应该获得更多资本。
Elon MuskI mean it’s kind of a boring job if you ask me. It’s still a thing that’s important to figure out. Like, which is a company deserving of more or less capital. Should that company grow or expand? Is it making products and services that are better than others or worse? If a company is making compelling products and services, it should get more capital, and if it’s not, it should get less or go out of business.说实话，如果你问我，这工作挺无聊的。但它依然是件重要的事：哪家公司值得获得更多或更少的资本？这家公司该扩张吗？它提供的产品和服务是否比其他的更好？如果一家公司的产品和服务足够有吸引力，它就应该获得更多资本；如果不够，就应该少得，甚至倒闭。
Joe RoganWell, there’s a big difference, too, between someone who’s making an incredible amount of money designing and engineering fantastic products versus someone who’s making an incredible amount of money by investing in companies or moving money around in the stock market or doing things along those lines. It’s a different thing and to put them all in the same category seems it’s very simple. As you pointed out, it’s an attack vector.嗯，这中间有很大区别：靠设计和工程创造出超棒产品而赚到巨额财富，和靠投资公司、在股市里搬运资金之类的方式赚到巨额财富，完全是两回事。把他们全归为一类太简单粗暴了。就像你说的，那是一个攻击向量。
Elon MuskYeah, for sure. I do think, in the United States especially, there’s an over-allocation of talent in finance and law. Basically, too many smart people go into finance and law. This is both a compliment and a criticism. We should have, I think, fewer people doing law and fewer people doing finance and more people making stuff.是的，没错。我确实认为，尤其在美国，金融和法律领域吸引了过多的人才。简而言之，太多聪明人去做金融和法律了。这既是一种赞美，也是一种批评。我认为，应该减少做法律和金融的人，让更多的人去制造东西。
Joe RoganWell, that would certainly be better for all involved if they made better stuff.那样的话，如果他们能造出更好的东西，对所有人都更好。
Elon MuskYeah, absolutely. Manufacturing used to be highly valued in the United States, and these days it’s not. It’s often looked down upon, which I think is wrong.是的，绝对是。制造业曾经在美国非常受重视，但现在不是了，甚至经常被人看不起，我觉得这是错误的。
Joe RoganYeah. Well, I think that people are kind of learning that particularly because of this whole pandemic and this relationship that we have with China, that there’s a lot of value in the making things and in the making things here.是的，我觉得人们正在重新认识到这一点，尤其是因为这场疫情以及我们和中国的关系——在本土制造东西有很大的价值。
Elon MuskYes. Somebody’s got to do the real work. You know, like, making a car, it’s an honest day’s living, that’s for sure. Making anything, really, or providing a valuable service like providing good entertainment, good information, these are all valuable things to do. Yeah, there should be more of it.是的，总得有人做实事。造一辆车，那是正儿八经的谋生方式，肯定没错。造任何东西，或者提供有价值的服务，比如好的娱乐、好的信息，这些都是有价值的事情。是的，应该有更多这样的人。
Joe RoganDid you have a moment where – is this something that this idea of getting rid of your material possessions – is it something that built up over time, or did you have a moment of realization where you realized that.你有没有某个时刻——清空物质财产这个想法，是慢慢积累起来的，还是突然间某个顿悟的瞬间？
Elon MuskYeah, I’ve been thinking about it for a while. You know, part of it is I have a bunch of houses, but I don’t spend a lot of time in most of them. That doesn’t seem like a good use of assets. Somebody could probably be enjoying those houses and get better use of them than me.是的，我想了有一段时间了。部分原因是我有一堆房子，但大多数我都没怎么住。这不像是对资产的有效利用。应该有人能好好享用这些房子，比我更能物尽其用。
Joe RoganDon’t you have Gene Wilder’s house?你不是有 Gene Wilder 的那栋房子吗？
Elon MuskI do.是的，我有。
Joe RoganThat’s amazing.那太了不起了。
Elon MuskIt’s awesome.太棒了。
Joe RoganWow.哇。
Elon MuskYes. It’s exactly what you’d expect.是的，正是你能想象到的那种风格。
Joe RoganDid you request that the buyer not fuck it up?你有没有要求买家不要把它毁掉？
Elon MuskYeah, that’s a requirement.有，那是个条件。
Joe RoganOh, a requirement? That’s a good requirement.哦，是个条件？这个条件提得好。
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Joe RoganIn that case in that house.就针对那栋房子。
Elon MuskYeah, it’ll probably sell for less, but still, I don’t care.是的，可能会卖便宜一点，但我不在乎。
Joe RoganOh, he’s a legend. He’d want his soul, he’d want his essence in the building.他是个传奇。他的灵魂，他的精神气质应该留在那栋建筑里。
Elon MuskAnd it’s there.它确实在那里。
Joe RoganIs it?真的吗？
Elon MuskIt’s a real quirky house, yeah.那是一栋很独特的房子，对。
Joe RoganWhat makes you say it’s there? What do you get out of it?你从哪里感受到这一点的？你从中得到了什么？
Elon MuskI mean, all the cabinets are like handmade, and they’re like odd shapes, and there’s like doors to nowhere and strange corridors and tunnels and odd paintings on the wall. Yeah.我是说，所有橱柜都是手工制作的，形状奇奇怪怪，有通向死路的门，有奇特的走廊和隧道，墙上还挂着奇异的画。是的。
Joe RoganDid you ever live in it?你住过里面吗？
Elon MuskIt’s very quirky. I did live in it briefly, yeah.那房子非常独特。我短暂住过，是的。
Joe RoganBut why do you buy houses? If you own all these houses, do you just get bored and go ‘I think I’d like to have that’?但你为什么要买房子呢？你都拥有这么多房子了，是无聊了然后想着"我想要那栋房子"吗？
Elon MuskWell, I had one house, and the Gene Wilder house is right across the road from me from my main house. It was going to get sold and then torn down and turned into, you know, be a big construction zone for three years. I was like, whoa, I think I’ll buy it and preserve the spirit of Gene Wilder and not have a giant construction zone.嗯，我最开始只有一栋房子，Gene Wilder 的那栋就在我主要住所的马路对面。当时它要被卖掉、然后拆除，变成一个持续三年的大工地。我当时想：不行，我把它买下来，保留 Gene Wilder 的精神气质，别让对面变成一个大工地。
Elon MuskThen I started having some privacy issues where people would just come to my house and start climbing over the walls and stuff. Then I bought some of the houses around my house, and then I thought at one point, you know, it’d be cool to build a house. I acquired some properties at the top of Somera Road, which has got a great view, and I was like, okay, well there’s a bunch of sort of small older houses, they’re going to get torn down, anyway. I was like, well, if I collect these little houses, then I can build something, I don’t know, artistic, like a dream house type of thing.后来我开始有些隐私方面的问题，有人会直接跑到我家，爬上围墙。所以我把主屋周围的一些房子也买了下来。然后我有段时间想，建一栋房子挺酷的。我在 Somera Road 顶端买了几块地，视野很好。那里有一些比较旧的小房子，反正迟早要被拆，我想着，如果我把这些小房子都收了，就能建点什么艺术性的东西，比如梦想中的那种房子。
Joe RoganWhat’s a dream house for Elon Musk? Like some Tony Stark type shit?Elon Musk 的梦想房子是什么样的？那种 Tony Stark 式的？
Elon MuskYeah, definitely. Yeah. You got to have the dome that opens up with the stealth helicopter and that kind of thing.那是肯定的，是的。肯定得有一个能打开的圆顶，里面停着隐形直升机，诸如此类。
Joe RoganYeah.是的。
Elon MuskFor sure.肯定的。
Joe RoganFuck yeah.太牛了。
Elon MuskDefinitely. But then I was like, man, does it really make sense for me to spend time designing and building a house and I’d be real, you know, get a like OCD on the little details and the design, or should I be allocating that time to getting us to Mars? I should probably do the latter. Like what’s more important? Mars or a house? I’m like Mars. Okay.当然。但后来我想：花时间去设计和建造一栋房子，然后我肯定会在细节和设计上强迫症发作——这真的有意义吗？还是说，我应该把这些时间用来推动人类去往火星？我应该做后者。火星和房子，哪个更重要？我想，是火星。好吧。
Joe RoganIs that really how you think? Like, I’d be better off planning on a trip to Mars or getting people to Mars?你真的这样想吗？比如：做这件事不如去计划火星之旅、或者送人去火星？
Elon MuskYeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, you can only do so many things.是的，绝对是。一个人能做的事情就那么多。
Joe RoganRight. Well, I don’t know how you do what you do anyway. I don’t understand how you can run The Boring Company, Tesla, SpaceX, all these different things you’re doing constantly. I don’t understand. I mean, you explained last time you were here how you sort of allocate your time and how hectic it is and insane. I still don’t… the productivity is baffling. It just doesn’t make sense how you can get so much done.对，我不知道你是怎么做到的。我不明白你怎么能同时运营 The Boring Company、Tesla、SpaceX，还有这么多其他的事情。你上次来这里解释了你怎么分配时间、有多忙碌和疯狂。我还是不明白——你的生产力让人瞠目结舌，根本说不通你是怎么完成这么多事情的。
Elon MuskWell, I think I do have high productivity, but even with that, there’s still some opportunity cost of time and allocating time to building a house, even if it was a really great house, it still is not a good use of time relative to developing the rockets necessary to get us to Mars and helping solve sustainable energy. SpaceX and Tesla are by far the most amount of brain cycles. The Boring Company does not take… it’s like less than 1% of brain cycles. And then Neuralink, which is, I don’t know, maybe it’s like 5% and then…嗯，我觉得我的生产力确实很高，但即便如此，时间的机会成本还是存在的。把时间分配给建一栋房子，哪怕是一栋非常棒的房子，相对于开发必要的火箭送人去火星、以及帮助解决可持续能源问题，还是不值得。SpaceX 和 Tesla 占用了我绝大部分的脑力运转。The Boring Company 几乎不耗费什么——不到 1% 的脑力运转。然后是 Neuralink，差不多 5% 左右，再然后……
Joe Rogan5%? That’s a good chunk.5%？那也不少啊。
Elon MuskIt’s a good chunk. Yeah.确实不少，是的。
Joe RoganWe were talking about that last time, and you were trying to figure out when it was actually going to go live when it’s actually going to be available. Are you testing on people right now?我们上次聊到这个，你当时在想它什么时候真正上线、什么时候能用。你们现在在人体上测试了吗？
Elon MuskNo, we’re not testing on people yet, but I think it won’t be too long. I think we may be able to implant a neural link in less than a year in a person, I think.还没有在人体上测试，但我觉得不会太久了。我认为不到一年，我们可能就能把 Neuralink 植入一个人体内，我想。
Joe RoganWhen you do this, is there any tests that you have to do before you do something like this to see what percentage of people’s bodies are going to reject these things? Is there a potential for rejection?在做这件事之前，你们需要做哪些测试来判断有多大比例的人体会排斥它？有排斥的可能吗？
Elon MuskIt’s a very low potential for rejection. I mean, you can think of it like people put in heart monitors and things for epileptic seizures and deep brain stimulation , obviously like artificial hips and knees and that kind of thing. The probability of… I mean, it’s well known what will cause rejection and what will not. It’s definitely harder when you’ve got something that is sort of reading and writing neurons that’s generating a current pulse and reading current pulses. That’s a little harder than, say, a passive device, but it’s still very doable. There are people who have primitive devices in their brains right now.排斥的可能性非常低。你可以把它类比成人们植入的心脏监测器、用于治疗癫痫的装置，或者是深部脑刺激装置，还有人工髋关节、膝关节之类的东西。什么会引起排斥，什么不会，这些都有很成熟的了解。当然，读写神经元、产生电流脉冲并读取电流脉冲，比被动式装置要难一些，但依然完全可行。现在就已经有人的大脑里装着早期原始的装置了。
Joe RoganWhat kind of devices?什么样的装置？
Elon MuskWell, like deep brain stimulation provided for Parkinson’s, it has really changed people’s lives in a big way, which is kind of remarkable because it kind of like zaps your brain. It’s like kicking the TV type of thing. You think like, man, kicking the TV shouldn’t work.比如用于帕金森症的深部脑刺激，它真的从根本上改变了很多人的生活，相当了不起——因为它的作用方式说白了就是电击大脑。有点像踹一脚电视机那种感觉，你会想：踹电视机怎么可能有用呢？
Joe RoganIt does sometimes. The old TVs.有时候还真管用，老式电视那会儿。
Elon MuskIt did.是真的有用。
Joe RoganMy grandpa used to slap the top.我爷爷以前会拍电视机顶部。
Elon MuskFor sure. Yeah.没错，是的。
Joe RoganIt would work sometimes.有时候还真有效。
Elon MuskYeah, so this deep brain stimulation implanted device is in the brain that has changed people’s lives for the better fundamentally.是的，这种植入大脑的深部脑刺激装置，从根本上改善了人们的生活。
Joe RoganWell, let’s talk about what you can talk about to what Neuralink is because the last time you were here, you really couldn’t discuss it. Then there was, I guess, a press release or something that sort of outlined…好，聊聊 Neuralink 吧，聊你能说的部分。上次你来这里还不能讨论，后来好像出了一个新闻稿或者什么，大致介绍了一些……
Elon MuskOh yeah, sure.哦对，当然可以。
Joe RoganYeah, that had happened quite a bit after the last time you were here. What exactly is it? How do you do – what happens if someone ultimately does get a neural link installed? What will take place?是的，在你上次来之后发生了很多。Neuralink 究竟是什么？如果有人最终真的植入了 Neuralink，会经历什么？
Elon MuskWell, for version one of the device, it would be basically implanted in your skull. It would be flush with your skull, so you basically take out a chunk of skull, put the Neuralink device in there. You’d insert the electrode threads very carefully into the brain, and then you stitch it up, and you wouldn’t even know that somebody has it. It can interface basically anywhere in your brain. It could be something that helps cure, say, eyesight, like returns your eyesight even if you’ve lost your optic nerve type of thing.嗯，第一代设备会被植入你的颅骨里，与颅骨齐平——基本上就是取出一块颅骨，把 Neuralink 装置放进去。然后机器人会非常精准地把电极线插入大脑，再缝合上，你根本看不出来有人装了这个东西。它可以接入大脑的几乎任何部位，可以用来治愈视觉问题，比如即使你的视神经已经受损，也能帮你恢复视力。
Joe RoganReally?真的？
Elon MuskYeah, absolutely. Hearing… – Pretty much anything that…- It could, in principle, fix almost anything that is wrong with the brain. It could restore limb functionality, so if you’ve got an interface into the motor cortex and then an implant that’s like a microcontroller and near muscle groups, you could then create sort of a neural shunt that restores somebody who is a quadriplegic to full functionality. Like, they can walk around and be normal.是的，当然。听力也一样——几乎任何大脑方面的问题，理论上都能修复。它可以恢复肢体功能：如果在运动皮层有一个接口，然后在肌肉群附近植入一个类似微控制器的装置，就可以创建一种神经旁路，让一个四肢瘫痪的人恢复完整的行动能力——可以像正常人一样走来走去。
Joe RoganWow.哇。
Elon MuskYeah, maybe slightly better.是的，甚至可能稍微超过正常水平。
Joe RoganSlightly better?稍微超过？
Elon MuskOver time, yes.随着时间推移，是的。
Joe RoganYou mean with future iterations?你是说随着未来迭代版本的出现？
Elon MuskLike the, you know, ‘ Six Million Dollar Man ’. Although these days, that doesn’t sound like much.就像那部《六百万美元金刚》（Six Million Dollar Man）。不过现在这点钱听起来不算多了。
Joe RoganRight, that’s pretty cheap. ‘Six Billion Dollar Man’.对，那太便宜了。该叫"六十亿美元金刚"了。
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Joe RoganThe hole would be small. How big would the hole be that you have to drill and then replace with this piece? It’s only one hole?孔洞会很小吗？需要钻多大的孔，然后放进这个装置？就一个孔？
Elon MuskWell, yeah, the device we’re working on right now is about, it’s about an inch in diameter. Your skull is pretty thick, by the way.嗯，是的，我们现在在研发的装置大概直径一英寸左右。顺便说一句，你的颅骨其实很厚。
Joe RoganMine is for sure.我的肯定很厚。
Elon MuskIt might actually, literally. I mean, if you’re a big guy, your skull is actually fairly thick. A skull is like seven to 14 millimeters.这可能是字面意义上的厚。我是说，如果你是个大块头，颅骨其实相当厚，有 7 到 14 毫米。
Joe RoganMines probably a couple of inches.我的可能有好几英寸厚。
Elon MuskA half inch. Half inch thick skull. Yeah, that’s a fair bit of like… We’ve got quite a coconut going on here. It’s not like some eggshell.半英寸，颅骨有半英寸厚。是的，相当可观——我们这个脑壳不是蛋壳那么脆的。
Joe RoganOh yeah, I believe you.哦，我信你。
Elon MuskYeah, you basically implant the device.是的，你基本上就是把装置植入进去。
Joe RoganIt would be like a one inch square? One inch in diameter, so an inch circle?是一英寸见方的那种？一英寸直径，所以是个一英寸的圆？
Elon MuskYeah, think like a smartwatch or something like that.是的，大概就像一块智能手表那样的东西。
Joe RoganOh, okay.哦，好的。
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Joe RoganOkay, so you take this one inch diameter like ice fishing, right? You ever go ice fishing?好的，所以你拿这个一英寸直径——就像冰上钓鱼，对吧？你去冰钓过吗？
Elon MuskNo, but I’d like to.没有，但我很想去。
Joe RoganIt’s great. It’s really fun. so you basically take an auger, and you drill through the surface of the ice, and you create a small hole, and you can dunk your line in there. This is like that. You’re ice fishing on the top of your skull, and then you cork it.挺好玩的，真的很有趣。大概就是拿一个螺旋钻，钻穿冰层，打出一个小洞，然后把鱼线放进去。这个就类似那个。你在颅骨顶部冰钓，然后把它塞住。
Elon MuskYeah, and you replace that, say, one inch diameter piece of skull with the Neuralink device, and that has a battery and a Bluetooth and an inductive charger. Then you also insert the electrodes. The electrodes are very carefully inserted with a robot that we developed. It’s very carefully putting in the electrodes and avoiding any veins or arteries, so it doesn’t create trauma.是的，你就把那块大概一英寸直径的颅骨换成 Neuralink 装置，里面有电池、蓝牙和感应充电器。然后还要插入电极。电极由我们开发的机器人非常精准地插入，避开所有静脉和动脉，不会造成创伤。
Joe RoganThrough this one inch diameter device, electrodes would be inserted, and they will find their way…通过这个一英寸直径的装置，电极被插入进去，然后它们会找到……
Elon MuskLike tiny wires, basically.就像非常细的电线一样。
Joe RoganAnd they’ll find their way to specific areas of the brain to stimulate?它们会找到大脑的特定区域来进行刺激？
Elon MuskNo, you literally put them where they’re supposed to go.不，你是直接把它们放到应该去的地方的。
Joe RoganOh, okay. How long will these wires be?哦，好的。这些导线会有多长？
Elon MuskI mean, they usually go in like, depending on where it is, like two or three millimeters.一般插入的深度大概是 2 到 3 毫米，取决于具体位置。
Joe RoganThey just find the spots?它们就直接找到那些位置？
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Joe RoganWow.哇。
Elon MuskThen you put the device in, and that replaces the little piece of skull that was taken out. Then you stitch up the hole, and it will just look like a little scar, and that’s it.然后把装置放进去，替换掉那块取出的小颅骨。缝合那个洞之后，只会留下一道小疤，就这样了。
Joe RoganWould this be replaceable or reversible? Like if someone can’t take it anymore? “I’m too smart; I can’t take it.”这个装置可以更换或者取出吗？比如有人再也受不了了，"我太聪明了，我受不了了"。
Elon MuskYeah, you can totally take it out.是的，完全可以取出来。
Joe RoganBesides restoring limb function and eyesight and hearing, which are all amazing, is there any cognitive benefits that you anticipate from something like this?除了恢复肢体功能、视力和听力这些令人惊叹的用途之外，你预期这东西还会有什么认知方面的好处吗？
Elon MuskYeah, I mean you could for sure…- I mean, basically it’s a generalized sort of thing for fixing any kind of brain injury in principle, or if you’ve got like severe epilepsy or something like that. It could just sort of stop the epilepsy from occurring. It could detect it in real-time and then fire a counter pulse and stop the epilepsy.是的，当然可以——原则上，它是一种通用性的东西，可以修复任何类型的脑损伤，或者如果你有严重的癫痫之类的问题。它可以在实时检测到癫痫发作，然后发出一个反向脉冲，阻止癫痫的发生。
Elon MuskI mean, there’s a whole range of brain injuries. Like if people get a stroke, they could lose the ability to speak, and that could also be fixed. If you’ve got stroke damage or you lose, say, muscle control over part of your face or something like that. And then, when you get older, you tend to… – if you get like Alzheimer’s or something like that, then you lose memory, and this could help you with restoring your memory and that kind of thing.各种脑损伤的范围很广。比如中风可能导致失语，这也可以修复。如果你因中风损伤而失去了对部分面部肌肉的控制，同样可以。而且随着年龄增长——如果你患上了阿尔茨海默症之类的病，会失去记忆，这个装置可以帮助你恢复记忆，诸如此类。
Joe RoganRestoring memory… – and what is happening that’s allowing it to do that? Like the wires, these small wires are stimulating these areas of the brain. Is it that the areas of the brain are losing some sort of electrical force? What is happening?恢复记忆……这是怎么做到的？那些细线在刺激大脑的这些区域。是大脑的那些区域正在失去某种电力吗？到底发生了什么？
Elon MuskThe thing is it’s like a bunch of circuits, and there’s some circuits that are broken, and we can fix those circuits. It’s a substitute for those circuits.关键是，大脑就像一堆电路，有些电路坏了，我们可以修复这些电路。它是这些电路的替代品。
Joe RoganA specific frequency will go through this?特定的频率会通过这个吗？
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Joe RoganIs the process figuring out how much or how little has to be, how much these areas of the brain have to be juiced up?研究的过程就是找出需要多大或多小的量，这些大脑区域需要被激发多少？
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, there’s still a lot of work to do. When I say we’ve got a shot at probably putting in a person within a year, that’s exactly what I mean. I think we have a chance of putting it into one and having them be healthy and restoring some functionality that they’ve lost.是的。我是说，还有很多工作要做。当我说我们有可能在不到一年内把它植入一个人体内，我就是这个意思。我认为我们有机会把它植入一个人体内，让他保持健康，并恢复他失去的某些功能。
Joe RoganThe fear is that eventually, you’re going to have to cut the whole top of someone’s head off and put a new top with a whole bunch of wires if you want to get the real turbocharged version. The P100D of brain stimulation.让人担心的是，最终你可能得把人的整个头顶切开，换上一个装满电线的新头顶，才能实现真正的超强版。大脑刺激界的 P100D。
Elon MuskI mean, ultimately, if you want to go with full AI symbiosis, you’ll probably want to do something like that.我是说，如果你最终想实现完整的 AI 共生，可能确实需要做类似的事情。
Joe RoganSymbiosis is a scary word when it comes to AI.在 AI 这件事上，"共生"这个词听起来挺吓人的。
Elon MuskIt’s optional.这是可选的。
Joe RoganI would hope so.但愿如此。
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Joe RoganIt’s just, I mean, once you enjoy the Doctor Manhattan lifestyle, once you become a god seems very unlikely you’re going to want to go back to being stupid again. I mean, you literally could fundamentally change the way human beings interface with each other.就是说，一旦你享受上了 Doctor Manhattan 那种生活方式，一旦你变成了神，你就很难再甘愿回去做一个普通人。你确实可能从根本上改变人类相互交流的方式。
Elon MuskYes. You wouldn’t need to talk.是的，那样就不需要说话了。
Joe RoganI’m so scared of that, but so excited about it at the same time. Is that weird?我对此既感到恐惧，又同时感到兴奋。这奇怪吗？
Elon MuskYeah, I think this is one of the paths to think like what are… Like AI is getting better and better. Now let’s assume it’s sort of like a benign AI scenario. Even in a benign scenario, we’re kind of left behind. We’re not along for the ride. We’re just too dumb.是的，我觉得这是值得思考的路径之一——AI 越来越厉害了。现在假设是一种良性的 AI 场景。即便在良性场景下，我们也会被落在后面。我们跟不上。我们就是太笨了。
Joe RoganRight.对。
Elon MuskHow do you go along for the ride? It’s, like, if you can’t beat them, join them. We’re already a cyborg to some degree, right? Because you’ve got your phone, you’ve got your laptop, your electronic devices. Today, if you don’t bring your phone along, it’s like you have missing limb syndrome. It feels like something’s really missing. We’re already partly a cyborg or an AI symbiote, essentially.怎么跟上？如果打不过，就加入他们。我们某种程度上已经是赛博格了，对吧？因为你有手机，有笔记本电脑，有各种电子设备。现在，如果你没带手机，感觉就像少了一条腿，真的觉得少了什么东西。我们在某种程度上已经是半个赛博格，或者说 AI 共生体了。
Elon MuskIt’s just that the data rate to the electronics is slow. Especially output, like you’re just going with your thumbs. I mean, like, what’s your data rate? Optimistically, a hundred bits per second. That’s being generous. Now the computer can communicate at a hundred terabytes. Certainly, you know, gigabits are trivial at this point.只是我们和电子设备之间的数据传输速率太慢了。尤其是输出，你就靠两根大拇指打字。你的数据速率是多少？往乐观了说，每秒 100 比特，这已经是往高了估了。而计算机可以以 100 TB 的速率通信，现在就算是 Gbps 级别的速率也不算什么了。
Elon MuskBasically, your computer could do things a million times faster. At a certain point, it’s like talking to a tree. Okay? This is boring. You talk to a tree – it’s not very entertaining. If you can solve the data rate issue, especially output, but input, too, then you can improve the symbiosis that is already occurring between man and machine.基本上，你的计算机可以快上百万倍。到某一个程度，和你说话就像跟一棵树说话。好吧？跟树说话不怎么有意思。如果能解决数据速率的问题，尤其是输出，也包括输入，就能提升人与机器之间已经在发生的共生关系。
Joe RoganSo, you can improve it – when you said you won’t have to talk to each other anymore. We used to joke around about that. I’ve joked around about that a million times in this podcast that one day in the future, there’s going to come a time where you can read each other’s minds. You’ll be able to interface with each other in some sort of a nonverbal, non-physical way where you will transfer data back and forth to each other without having to actually use your mouth to make noises.你说的是可以改善它——当你说以后不需要互相说话的时候，我们以前老爱开这个玩笑。我在这个播客里开过无数次这个玩笑，说未来有一天会出现能读心术的技术，你可以通过某种非语言、非肢体的方式与对方交互，不需要用嘴巴发出声音，就能直接互相传输数据。
Elon MuskExactly, so when you… Like what happens when you, let’s say you’ve got some complex idea that you’re trying to convey to somebody else, and how do you do that? Well, your brain spends a lot of effort compressing a complex concept into words, and there’s a lot of loss, information loss that occurs when compressing a complex concept into words. Then you say those words, and those words are then interpreted, then they’re decompressed by the person who is listening. They will, at best, get a very incomplete understanding of what you’re trying to convey. It’s very difficult to convey a complex concept with precision because you’ve got compression, decompression, you may not even have heard all the words correctly and so communication is difficult. What we have here is a failure to communicate. Cool Hand Luke .正是。当你——比如你有一个复杂的想法要传递给别人，你是怎么做的？你的大脑要花费大量精力把一个复杂的概念压缩成文字，而在将复杂概念压缩成文字的过程中，会有大量的信息损失。然后你说出这些话，这些话被对方接收，再由倾听者解压缩。对方充其量只能得到你想传达内容的一个非常不完整的理解。由于压缩和解压缩的存在，加之对方甚至可能没有听清所有词语，传达一个复杂概念的精确性是极其困难的，沟通真的很难。我们在这里遇到的就是沟通失败——《铁窗喋血》（Cool Hand Luke）。
Joe RoganYes. Great movie.是的，经典好片。
Elon MuskYeah, great one.是的，很好的一部。
Joe RoganThere’s an interpretation factor, too. Like you can choose to interpret certain series of words in different ways, and they’re dependent upon tone, dependent upon social cues, even facial expressions, sarcasm. There’s a lot of variables.还有一个解读因素。同样一串文字，你可以用不同的方式去解读，取决于语气、社会暗示，甚至面部表情、讽刺意味。变量太多了。
Elon MuskSarcasm is difficult.讽刺是最难处理的。
Joe RoganOne of the things that I’ve said is that there could be potentially a universal language that’s created through computers that particularly young kids would pick up very quickly. Like, my kids do Tik Tok and all this jazz, and I don’t know what they’re doing. They just know how to do it, and they know how to do it really quickly. Like they learn really quickly, and they show me how to edit things.我一直有个想法，就是有可能通过计算机创建一种通用语言，年幼的孩子会学得非常快。比如我的孩子玩 TikTok 和那些东西，我不知道他们在干什么，他们就是会，而且学得很快，还会教我怎么剪辑东西。
Joe RoganIt’s if you taught a child from first grade on how to use some new universal language, essentially like a Rosetta Stone , and something that’s done with that interprets your thoughts and you can convey your thoughts with no room for interpretation, clear, very clear, where you know what a person’s saying. And you could tell them what you’re saying, and there’s no need for noises, no need for mouth noises. No need for these sort of accepted ways that we’ve evolved to make sounds that we all agree, through our cultural dictionary, and we agree. We could bypass all that.就好像从一年级开始教孩子一种新的通用语言，本质上类似一块 Rosetta Stone，用某种东西来解读你的想法，让你可以传达你的思想，没有任何解读的空间，清晰、非常清晰——你知道对方在说什么，对方也知道你在说什么，不需要发出任何声音，不需要嘴巴发出噪音，不需要那套我们进化出来的、彼此约定俗成的、通过文化词典达成共识的发声方式。我们可以完全绕过这一切。
Elon MuskYou can still do it for sentimental reasons.你还是可以为了情感需求继续这么做。
Joe RoganLike campfires.就像篝火一样。
Elon MuskYeah, exactly. You don’t need campfire. Don’t need to roast marshmallows to have fun.是的，没错。你不需要篝火，也不需要烤棉花糖才能开心。
Joe RoganRight.对。
Elon MuskSo, yeah, I think in principle you would be able to communicate very quickly and with far more precision ideas. Language would – I’m not sure what would happen to language. In a situation like this, you would be able to just…- it’d be kind of like The Matrix . If you want to speak a different language – no problem.是的，我认为理论上你可以非常快速地传递想法，而且精确度远超现在。语言会——我不确定语言会变成什么样。在这种情境下，你就可以直接——有点像《黑客帝国》里那种。你想说另一种语言？没问题。
Joe RoganRight.对。
Elon MuskJust download the program.直接下载那个程序就行了。
Joe RoganRight. So at least for the first iterations, first few iterations. I know that Google has…- some of their pixel buds have the ability to interpret languages in real-time.对。所以至少在最初几个版本里——我知道谷歌有一些他们的 Pixel Buds 耳机具备实时口译语言的功能。
Elon MuskSure.对。
Joe RoganYeah. You can hear it, and it’ll play things back to you in whatever language you choose. So it’d be something along those lines? For the first few iterations?嗯。你能听到，它会把内容用你选择的任何语言播放给你。最初几个版本大概就是这类功能吧？
Elon MuskWell, the first few iterations are… – what I’m talking about is in the limit over time, with a lot of development. The first few iterations, really, in the first few versions, all we’re going to be trying to do is solve brain injuries. So, don’t worry. It’s not going to sneak up on you. This will take a while.嗯，最初几个版本——我说的那些是在经过大量开发之后的长期极限状态。最初几个版本，头几代，我们真正要做的只是修复脑损伤。所以别担心，它不会突然冒出来吓你的。这需要相当长的时间。
Joe RoganHow many years? Before you don’t have to talk.要多少年？在你不需要开口说话之前。
Elon MuskIf the development continues to accelerate, then maybe five years. Five to 10 years.如果开发进展继续加速，也许五年。五到十年吧。
Joe RoganThat’s quick. That’s really quick.那很快啊。真的很快。
Elon MuskThat’s the best-case scenario.那是最乐观的情景。
Joe RoganNo talking anymore in five years.五年之内就不用说话了？
Elon MuskBest case scenario, but ten years is more likely.最乐观的情景是这样，但十年更有可能。
Joe RoganI’ve always speculated that aliens could potentially be us in the future because if you look at the size of their heads and the fact that they have very little muscle, they don’t use their mouth anymore. They have this tiny little…- I mean the archetype of an alien that you see in like “Close Encounters of the Third Kind” – they’re like if you went from Australopithecus or ancient hominid to us, what’s the difference? Less hair, less muscle, bigger head.我一直在猜测，外星人有可能是来自未来的我们，因为你看他们头有多大，几乎没什么肌肉，他们已经不再使用嘴巴了。他们有这么一张小小的——我是说，像《第三类接触》里那种外星人的经典形象——如果你把从南方古猿或者远古人类进化到我们现代人类的过程看一遍，有什么区别？更少的毛发、更少的肌肉、更大的头。
Joe RoganAnd then just keep going. A thousand, a million, whatever years; or five years, whatever. Whatever happens when Neuralink goes on online, and then we slowly start to adapt to this new way of being where we don’t use our muscles anymore. We have this gigantic head; we can talk without words.然后继续往下演变。一千年，一百万年，或者五年，管它多少年——不管 Neuralink 上线会发生什么，然后我们慢慢开始适应这种新的存在方式，不再使用肌肉，脑袋变得超级大，不用语言就能交流。
Elon MuskYou could also save state.你还可以保存状态。
Joe RoganSave state?保存状态？
Elon MuskSave state, like save your brain state like a saved game in a video game.保存状态，就像游戏存档一样，把你的大脑状态保存下来。
Joe RoganWhoa. Like if you want to swap from Windows 95.哇。就像你想从 Windows 95 切换出去一样。
Elon MuskWell, hopefully, a little better than that. But, yeah.呃，但愿比那个好一点吧。不过，对，差不多这个意思。
Joe RoganI think we are Windows 95 right now.我觉得我们现在就是 Windows 95。
Elon MuskFrom a future perspective, probably. But yeah, I mean, you could save state and restore that state into a biological being if you wanted to in the future in principle. It’s like nothing from a physics standpoint that prevents us. You’d be a little different, but you’re also a little different when you wake up in the morning from yesterday, and you’re a little different in fact, if you say like ‘you five years ago’ versus ‘you today’ is quite a big difference.从未来的角度看，大概是吧。但是，我是说，你理论上可以保存状态，然后在未来把那个状态恢复到一个生物体内，如果你想的话。从物理学的角度来说，没有任何东西能阻止我们。你会有一点点不同，但你每天早上醒来也和昨天的你有一点不同；事实上，如果你说"五年前的你"和"现在的你"，差别相当大。
Joe RoganYes.是的。
Elon MuskSo you’d be substantially you. I mean, you’d certainly think you’re you.所以你基本上还是你。我是说，你当然会认为那就是你自己。
Joe RoganBut the idea of saving yourself and then transforming that into some sort of a biological state, you can hang out with 30 year old you?但把自己保存下来然后转移到某种生物状态里——这样你就能和三十岁的自己一起待着？
Elon MuskI mean, the possibilities are endless.我是说，可能性是无穷无尽的。
Joe RoganIt’s so weird.太奇妙了。
Elon MuskI mean, just think like how your phone…- you can record videos from your phone. There’s no way you could remember a video as accurately as your phone or a camera could. So now, if you’ve got like some version 10 Neuralink, whatever and far in the future, you could recall everything, just like it’s a movie.我是说，想想你的手机——你可以用手机录视频。你绝对没法像手机或摄像机那样精确地记住一段视频。所以现在，如果你有某个第十代 Neuralink 之类的东西，在很遥远的将来，你可以调取一切记忆，就像看电影一样。
Joe RoganCrystal clear.清晰无比。
Elon MuskIncluding all the entire sensory experience.包括全部完整的感官体验。
Joe RoganEmotions, everything.情绪，所有一切。
Elon MuskEverything and play it back, and in fact, you can edit it.一切都能回放，而且实际上你还能剪辑它。
Joe RoganEdit it?剪辑？
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Joe RoganSo you can change your past?所以你能改变你的过去？
Elon MuskYou could change what you think was your past. Yeah.你可以改变你以为是自己过去的东西。对。
Joe RoganWell, so if you had a dramatic experience?那如果你经历过一段创伤性的体验呢？
Elon MuskThis whole thing right now could be a replayed memory.我们现在正在进行的这一切，就可能是一段被重播的记忆。
Joe RoganIt could be.也许是的。
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Joe RoganIt may be. What’s the odds of this being a replayed memory? If you had a guess. More than 50%?也许真的是。如果你来猜一猜，这是重播记忆的概率有多大？超过 50%？
Elon MuskThere’s no way to assign a probability with accuracy here.没有任何办法能精确地给这件事赋予一个概率。
Joe RoganRight. But roughly, if you had a…- just gut instinct.对。但大概估计一下，凭直觉说。
Elon MuskWell, I don’t have a Neuralink in my brain, so I’d say right now 0%, but at the point at which you do have a Neuralink, then it rises above 0%.嗯，我脑子里现在没有 Neuralink，所以我说现在是 0%，但一旦你真的植入了 Neuralink，这个概率就会高于 0%。
Joe RoganThe idea that we’re experiencing some sort of a preserved memory is, even though it’s still the same, it’s not comforting. Right? For some reason, when people talk about simulation theory, they talk about the potential for this currently being a simulation. Even though your life might be wonderful, you might be in love, you might love your career, you might have great friends, but it’s not comforting to know that this experience somehow or another doesn’t exist in a material form that you can knock on. (knocks on the table)我们正在经历的是某种被保存的记忆这个想法，即便一切都照样运转，也不会让人感到安慰，对吧？出于某种原因，当人们谈到模拟理论，谈到当下可能正是一个模拟的时候——即便你的生活可能很美好，你可能正在恋爱，你可能热爱自己的事业，你可能有很好的朋友，但知道这段体验以某种方式并不以你可以敲一敲的物质形式存在，并不会让你感到安慰。（敲桌子）
Elon Musk(knocks on the table, too) It feels real, doesn’t it?（也敲了敲桌子）但感觉很真实，不是吗？
Joe RoganIt feels real. But the idea that it’s not, for some strange reason, is disconcerting.感觉是真实的。但它其实不是的这个想法，出于某种奇怪的原因，令人不安。
Elon MuskYeah. I’m sure it should be disconcerting because if this is not real, what is? But, there’s that old sort of thought experiment of like, how do you know you’re not a brain in a vat? I mean, now here’s the thing: You are a brain in a vat, and that vat is your skull.对，这确实应该让人不安，因为如果这不是真实的，那什么才是？不过，有一个老问题是这样的：你怎么知道你不是一个缸中之脑？但说到这里，其实你就是一个缸中之脑，而那个缸就是你的颅骨。
Joe RoganYes.是的。
Elon MuskEverything you see, feel, hear, everything, all your senses are electrical signals, everything. Everything is an electrical signal to a brain in a vat, with the vat is your skull.你所看到的、感受到的、听到的，所有的一切，你所有的感官，都是电信号，全部都是。一切都是电信号，传递给一个缸中之脑，而这个缸就是你的颅骨。
Joe RoganAll your hormones, all your neuro-transmitters, all these things are drugs. Adrenaline’s a drug. Dopamine is a drug. You’re a drug factory. You’re constantly changing your state with love and oxytocin and beauty.你所有的激素，所有的神经递质，这些东西都是药物。肾上腺素是一种药，多巴胺是一种药。你就是一个药物工厂，你在不断地用爱、催产素和美好的事物改变自己的状态。
Elon MuskSure.没错。
Joe RoganChanges your state. Great music changes your state.改变你的状态。好音乐也会改变你的状态。
Elon MuskAbsolutely. Yet, here’s another sort of interesting idea, which is, because you say like where did consciousness arise? Well, assuming you believe the belief in physics, which proves to be true, then the universe started off as basically quarks and leptons, and it quickly became hydrogen and helium, lithium, like, basically elements of the periodic table. But it was mostly hydrogen, basically. Then over a long period of time, 13.8 billion years later that hydrogen became sentient. Where along the way did consciousness…- What’s the line of consciousness and not consciousness between hydrogen and here?完全正确。不过，这里有另一个很有意思的想法——你问意识是从哪里产生的？好，假设你相信物理学，而物理学被证明是真的，那么宇宙起初基本上是夸克和轻子，很快变成了氢、氦、锂，基本上是元素周期表上的元素。但起初几乎全是氢。然后经过漫长的时间，138 亿年之后，那些氢变成了有意识的存在。在这个过程中，意识是从哪里产生的？从氢到现在，意识与非意识的分界线在哪里？
Joe RoganWhen do we call it, when do we call it consciousness? I was watching a video today that we played on a podcast earlier of a monkey riding a motorcycle down the street, jumps off the motorcycle, and tries to steal a baby.我们什么时候能叫它意识？我今天看了一个视频，我们之前在播客里放过——一只猴子骑着摩托车沿街而下，然后从摩托车上跳下来，试图抢走一个婴儿。
Elon MuskYeah. I saw that one. It went viral.对，我看到那个了。那个视频病毒式传播了。
Joe RoganIs that monkey conscious? It seems like it is. It seems like it had a plan. It was riding a fucking motorcycle and then jumped off the motorcycle to try to steal a baby.那只猴子有意识吗？看起来像是有。它似乎是有计划的。它他妈的骑着摩托车，然后从车上跳下来试图抢婴儿。
Elon MuskThe one that just dragged the baby down the street pretty far?就是那只把婴儿拖了很远一段路的那个？
Joe RoganYeah. It seems pretty conscious, right?对。看起来挺有意识的，对吧？
Elon MuskThere’s definitely some degree of consciousness there.那里面肯定有某种程度的意识。
Joe RoganYeah. It’s not like a worm. It seems to be on another level. Yeah, and it’s going to keep going. That’s the real concern when people think about the potential future versions of human beings, especially when you consider symbiotic relationship to artificial intelligence, that will be unrecognizable. That one day will be so far removed from what this is. We’ll look back on this, the way we look back now on simple organisms that we evolved from. That it won’t be that far in the future that we do have this view back.对，不像虫子，它似乎处于另一个层次。而且这还会继续发展下去。这是人们思考未来版本人类的真正隐忧所在，尤其是当你考虑到与人工智能的共生关系——那将是完全无法辨认的。总有一天，我们会与现在的状态相差如此之远，以至于我们回头看现在，就像我们现在回头看我们进化自的简单生命体一样。而这种回望，在不远的未来就会发生。
Elon MuskWell, I hope consciousness propagates into the future, and it gets more sophisticated and complex and that it understands the questions to ask about the universe.嗯，我希望意识能传播到未来，变得更加复杂和精密，并且能够理解关于宇宙该问什么问题。
Joe RoganDo you think that’s the case? As a human being, as yourself, you’re clearly trying to make conscious decisions to be a better version of yourself. This is the idea of getting rid of your possessions and realizing that you’re trying to like, “I don’t like this. I will try to improve this. I would try to do a better version of the way I interface with reality.”你认为事情会是这样吗？作为一个人，作为你自己，你显然在努力做出有意识的决定，让自己成为更好的版本。这就是抛弃物质财富的想法，也是你试图说"我不喜欢这个，我要改善它，我要以更好的方式与现实对接"的体现。
Joe RoganThat this is always the way things are, if you’re moving in some sort of a direction where you’re trying to improve things, you’re always going to move into this new place where you look back on the old place and go, “I was doing it wrong back then.” So this is an accelerated version of that. A super accelerated version of that.如果你朝着某个方向前进，试图改善事情，这一切总是这样——你总会来到一个新的地方，回望旧的地方时说："我那时候做错了。"所以这只是那个过程的加速版本，超级加速的版本。
Elon MuskI mean, you don’t always improve, but you can aspire to improve, or you can aspire to be less wrong.我是说，你不总是能进步，但你可以立志进步，或者可以立志减少犯错。
Joe RoganYeah.对。
Elon MuskThis is like, I think the tools of physics are very powerful. Just assume you’re wrong and aspire your goal is to be less wrong. I don’t think you’re going to succeed every day in being less wrong, but if you’re going to succeed in being less wrong most of the time, you’re doing great.这是——我认为物理学的工具非常强大。只需假设自己是错的，然后以少犯错为目标。我不认为你每天都能成功地少犯一点错，但如果你大多数时候都能少犯点错，那你已经做得很好了。
Joe RoganThat’s a great way of putting it. Aspire to be less wrong. But then when people look back in nostalgia about simpler times, there’s that too. It’s very romantic and exciting to look back on campfires.这个说法太好了。立志少犯错。但当人们带着怀旧情绪回望更简单的时代时，那也有其道理。回望篝火，浪漫而令人激动。
Elon MuskBut you still can have a campfire.但你仍然可以生篝火啊。
Joe RoganYes. But will you appreciate it when you’re a super nerd? When you connect it to the grid, and you have some skull cap in place of the top of your head, and it’s interfacing with the international language that the rest of the universe now enjoys communication with people?是的。但当你成了一个超级技术宅，接入了网络，脑袋顶部换上了一个颅骨帽，正在与宇宙其他地方现在通用的国际语言对接通信时，你还会欣赏篝火吗？
Elon MuskYeah. Sure. I think so. Yeah. I like campfires.嗯，会的。我喜欢篝火。
Joe RoganI’m just worried. I mean, everyone’s always scared of change, but I’m scared of this monumental change where we won’t talk anymore.我就是有点担心。我是说，人们总是害怕改变，但我害怕这种翻天覆地的变化，就是我们再也不用开口说话了。
Elon MuskWe’ll communicate.我们还是会交流的。
Joe RoganYes, but there’s something about the beauty of the crudeness of language where when it’s done eloquently, it’s satisfying, and it hits us in some sort of a visceral way. Like, ah, that person nailed it. I love that they nailed it. That it’s so hard to capture a real thought and convey it in a way, in this articulate way. You read a quote, a great quote by a wise person. It makes you excited that their mind figured something out, put the words together in a right way that makes your brain pop like, “Oh yes. Yes.”是的，但语言的粗粝之中有种美感——当它被运用得恰到好处时，会让人感到满足，让人从内心深处产生共鸣。就是那种"这个人说到点子上了"的感觉。我喜欢这种说到点子上的感觉。把真实的想法捕捉下来，以一种有条理的方式传达出来，这本身就是很难的事。你读到一句名言，一个智者说的精辟之语，你会感到兴奋，因为他的思维想通了某件事，把词语以正确的方式组合在一起，让你的大脑突然开窍，"哦对，就是这样。"
Elon MuskIt’s clever compression of a concept and a feeling.那是对一个概念和一种感受的精巧压缩。
Joe RoganBut the fact that a human did it too.但那是人类做到的，这一点本身也很重要。
Elon MuskYeah, absolutely.对，绝对是。
Joe RoganDo you think that it will be like electronic music? Like people won’t appreciate it like they appreciate a slide guitar?你觉得会变得像电子音乐一样吗？人们不会再像欣赏滑棒吉他那样去欣赏它？
Elon MuskI like electronic music.我喜欢电子音乐。
Joe RoganI do too. Well, you make it. I know you like it.我也喜欢。你还自己做呢。我知道你喜欢。
Elon MuskYeah, I mean, I hope the future is more fun and interesting, and we’re just trying to make it that way.是啊，我希望未来更有趣、更精彩，我们只是在努力让它变成那样。
Joe RoganI hope it’s more fun and interesting too.我也希望它更有趣、更精彩。
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Joe RoganI just hope we don’t lose anything along the way.我只是希望我们在这个过程中不要失去什么。
Elon MuskWe might lose a little, but hopefully, we gain more than lose.我们可能会失去一点，但希望我们得到的比失去的更多。
Joe RoganYeah. That’s the thing, right? Gaining more than we lose. Something that makes us interesting is that we’re so flawed.对，就是这样，对吧？得到比失去更多。让我们有意思的一部分，正是我们身上那些缺陷。
Elon MuskThat’s for sure. I mean, look at civilization through the ages; most of them they rose and fell.那是肯定的。我是说，看看历史上各个文明，大多数都是兴起又衰落。
Joe RoganYeah.对。
Elon MuskI do think the globalization that we have, sort of like the memesphere, there’s not enough isolation between countries or regions. It’s like if there’s a mind virus that that mind virus cannot infect too much of the world. I actually sort of sympathizing with the anti-globalization people because it’s like, man, we don’t ever want everywhere to be the same for sure. Then we need some kind of mind viral immunity. So that’s a bit concerning.我确实觉得我们现在所拥有的全球化——有点像"梗圈"这个东西——国家或地区之间的隔离已经不够了。就好像如果有一种思维病毒，那这种病毒就能感染太多太多的世界了。我其实有点理解反全球化的人，因为这就像，老兄，我们绝对不想让所有地方都变得一模一样。然后我们需要某种思维病毒免疫力。这有点令人担忧。
Joe RoganMind viral immunity, meaning that once something like Neuralink gets established, the real concern is something that..- I mean, you said it’s Bluetooth, right? Or some future version of that? The idea is that something could possibly get into it, fuck it up.思维病毒免疫力——意思是说，一旦 Neuralink 之类的东西建立起来，真正的隐忧是……我是说，你说它用蓝牙对吧，或者某种未来版本的无线技术？这个想法是，某些东西可能会入侵进去，把它搞坏。
Elon MuskNo, I’m talking about, like somebody, some cockeyed concept that happens right now.不，我说的是，像现在就已经存在的某些歪曲扭曲的观念。
Joe RoganWell, I know this virus is in embedded chips, right? They’ve embedded chips and then acquired viruses.嗯，我知道有病毒会嵌入芯片，对吧？有些芯片被嵌入后会染上病毒。
Elon MuskWell, when I’m talking about a mind virus, I’m talking about a concept that infects people’s minds.嗯，我说思维病毒，是指一种感染人们思维的概念。
Joe RoganOh, okay. Okay. Like cult thinking or some sort of fundamentalism.哦，好，好。就像邪教思维或者某种原教旨主义。
Elon MuskYeah. Just a wrongheaded idea that goes viral in an ideal sense.对，就是一种在理想状态下病毒式传播的错误观念。
Joe RoganWell, that is a problem too, right, if someone can manipulate that technology to make something appear logical or rational?那也是个问题，对吧？如果有人能操纵那种技术，让某些东西看起来合乎逻辑或理性？
Elon MuskYeah. Yeah.对，对。
Joe RoganWould that be an issue too? This is a very ‘have’ versus ‘have not’ issue. If this really does…- I mean, initially, it’s going to help people with injuries, but you said ultimately it could lead to this spectacular cognitive change.这也是个问题吗？这非常是一个"拥有者"与"没有者"的问题。如果这真的……我是说，一开始它会帮助受伤的人，但你说最终它可能带来这种非凡的认知变革。
Elon MuskYes.是的。
Joe RoganBut the people that first get it should have a massive advantage over people that don’t have it yet.但最先得到它的人，相对于那些还没有得到它的人，将拥有巨大的优势。
Elon MuskWell, I mean, it’s the kind of thing where your productivity would improve, I don’t know, dramatically, maybe by a factor of 10 with it. So you could definitely just, I don’t know, take out a loan and do it and earn the money back real fast. Be super smart.嗯，我是说，这东西会让你的生产力大幅提升，不知道，也许提升 10 倍吧。所以你完全可以，我不知道，去贷个款装上它，然后很快就能把钱赚回来。变得超级聪明。
Joe RoganWell, in a capitalist society, it seems like you could really get so far ahead that before everybody else could afford this thing and link up and get connected as well, you’d be so far ahead, they can never catch you. Is that a concern?嗯，在资本主义社会里，好像你真的可以甩开其他人太远——在所有人都能负担得起、接入并连接上之前，你已经遥遥领先，他们永远追不上了。这是个令人担忧的问题吗？
Elon MuskWell, it’s not a super huge concern. I mean, there are huge differences in cognitive ability and resources already. You can think of a corporation as like a cybernetic collective that’s far smarter than an individual. I couldn’t personally build a whole rocket and the engines and launch it and everything. That’s impossible.嗯，这倒不是什么特别大的问题。我是说，在认知能力和资源方面，本来已经存在巨大的差距了。你可以把一家公司看作一个赛博集体，它比任何个人都聪明得多。我个人没法独自建造一整枚火箭，包括发动机，然后发射出去，这是不可能的。
Elon MuskBut we have 8,000 people at SpaceX, and you’re piecing it out to different people and using computers and machines and stuff. We can make lots of rockets launch into orbit, dock with the space station, and that kind of thing. So that already exists where those corporations are vastly more capable than an individual. But we should be, I think, less concerned about relative capabilities between people and more like having AI be vastly beyond us and decoupled from human will.但 SpaceX 有 8,000 名员工，把工作分配给不同的人，加上电脑和机器之类的东西，我们就能造出许多火箭，发射进轨道，与空间站对接，诸如此类。这种集体远比个人强大的情况早就存在了。但我认为我们应该少担心人与人之间的相对能力差异，更应该担心的是 AI 远远超越我们，并且脱离了人类的意志。
Joe RoganDecoupled from humans. So this is the ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’?脱离人类。所以这就是"打不过就加入"？
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Joe RoganSo you feel like it’s inevitable, like an AI, a sentient AI, is essentially inevitable?所以你觉得这是不可避免的——一个有意识的 AI，本质上是不可避免的？
Elon MuskSuper sentient AI. Like beyond a level that’s difficult to understand and impossible to understand probably.超级有意识的 AI。超越一种很难理解、或者说很可能根本无法理解的层次。
Joe RoganSomehow or another, so it’s almost like it’s a requirement for survival to achieve some sort of symbiotic existence with AI.不管怎样，这就好像与 AI 建立某种共生存在，几乎是一种生存的必要条件。
Elon MuskIt’s not a requirement. It’s just if you want to be along for the ride, then you need to do some kind of symbiosis. So the way your brain works right now, you’ve got kind of like the animal brain, reptile brain, kind of like the limbic system basically. And you’ve got the cortex. Now the brain purist will argue with this definition, but essentially you’ve got the primitive brain, and you’ve got the sort of smart brain or the brain that’s capable of planning and understanding concepts and difficult things that a monkey can’t understand.这不是必要条件。只是说，如果你想搭上这趟车，那就需要建立某种共生关系。你的大脑现在的运作方式，有点像动物脑、爬行动物脑，基本上就是边缘系统。然后你有大脑皮层。现在脑科学纯粹主义者可能会对这个定义有争议，但本质上你有原始的脑，和一种更"聪明"的脑，或者说能够规划、理解概念和猴子无法理解的复杂事物的那部分脑。
Elon MuskNow your cortex is much, much smarter than your limbic system. Nonetheless, they work together well. So I haven’t met anyone who wants to delete their limbic system or their cortex. People are quite happy having both. So you can think of this as being like the computer; the AI is like a third layer, a tertiary layer. So that could be symbiotic with the cortex. It’d be much smarter than the cortex, but you essentially have three layers, and you actually have that right now.你的大脑皮层比你的边缘系统聪明得多得多。尽管如此，它们配合得很好。所以我从没见过任何人想删掉自己的边缘系统或大脑皮层。人们很满意同时拥有两者。所以你可以把这个看作类似于计算机的情形；AI 就像第三层，一个附加层。它可以与大脑皮层形成共生关系。它会比大脑皮层聪明得多，但本质上你有三层，而你现在其实已经有了。
Elon MuskYour phone is capable of things, and your computer is capable of things that your brain is definitely not. Storing terabytes of information perfectly, doing incredible calculations that we couldn’t even come close to doing. You have that with your computer. It’s just like I said, the data rate is slow, the connection is weak.你的手机能做大脑绝对做不到的事，你的电脑也是。完美地存储 terabytes 的信息，进行我们甚至无法接近的惊人计算。这些你的电脑都能做到。就像我说的，只是数据传输速率太慢，连接太弱。
Joe RoganWhy is it so disconcerting, or why does it not give me comfort to think about it? Like when I think about a symbiotic connection to AI, I always think of this cold, emotionless sort of thing that we will become. Is that a bad way to look at it?为什么想到这个会让我感到不安，或者说为什么这无法给我安慰？就像当我想到与 AI 的共生连接时，我总会想到那种冷漠、没有情感的状态，这是我们将会变成的。这种看法是错的吗？
Elon MuskI don’t think that’s not how it would be. Like I said, you already are symbiotic with AI or computers.我不认为那就是实际情况。就像我说的，你已经与 AI 或者电脑处于共生状态了。
Joe RoganPhones, computers, laptops.手机，电脑，笔记本。
Elon MuskYeah, there’s quite a bit of AI going on, artificial neural nets. Increasingly, neural nets are sort of taking over from regular programming more and more. So you are connected; if you use Google Voice or Alexa or one of those things, it’s using a neural net to decode your speech and try to understand what you were saying.对，已经有相当多的 AI 在运行了，人工神经网络。神经网络越来越多地接管了常规编程，无论你是否使用 Google Voice 还是 Alexa 或者类似的东西，它都在用神经网络解码你的语音，试图理解你在说什么。
Elon MuskIf you’re trying to do image recognition or improve the quality of photographs, the neural nets the best way to do that. So you are already sort of a cybernetic symbiote. Like I said, it’s just a question of your data rate. The communication speed between your phone and your brain is slow.如果你想做图像识别或者提升照片质量，神经网络是最好的方式。所以你已经是某种赛博共生体了。就像我说的，只是你的手机和你的大脑之间通信速度的问题。
Joe RoganWhen do you think you’re going to do it? How long will you wait? Once it starts becoming available?你觉得你什么时候会去做？等多久？一旦它开始普及之后？
Elon MuskYeah, if it works, I’ll do it. Sure.如果它有效，我会去做的。当然。
Joe RoganRight away.马上就去？
Elon MuskI mean, let’s make sure it works.我是说，先确保它好用嘛。
Joe RoganHow do we make sure it works? We try it on prisoners? What do you do? Take rapists? Cut holes in their head?怎么确保它好用？在囚犯身上试验？你们会怎么做？找强奸犯来？在他们头上钻洞？
Elon MuskNo, like I said if somebody has got a serious brain injury and people that have very severe brain injuries and then you can fix those brain injuries. Then you prove out that it works and envelope expands and make more and more brain injuries, solve more and more. At a certain age, we all are going to get Alzheimer’s, or we’re all going to get senile. Then moms forget the names of their kids and that kind of thing.不，就像我说的，如果有人有严重的脑损伤——那些脑损伤非常严重的人——然后你能修复那些脑损伤。你就证明了它有效，然后范围扩大，能解决越来越多的脑损伤，解决越来越多的问题。到了一定年龄，我们都会得阿尔茨海默症，或者都会出现老年痴呆。然后妈妈们开始忘记自己孩子的名字，诸如此类。
Elon MuskIt’s like you said, okay, well this would allow you to remember your names of your kids and have a normal, a much more normal life where you were able to function much later in life. So I think essentially almost everyone would find a need at some point if you get old enough to use a neural link. Then it’s like, okay, so we can improve the functionality and improve the communication speed. So then you will not have to use your thumbs to communicate with the computer.就好像你说，好，这个东西能让你记住孩子们的名字，让你拥有一种更正常——正常得多——的生活，让你在更晚的年龄还能正常运作。所以我认为，本质上，几乎所有人只要活得够久，总有一天都会觉得有必要使用一个 neural link。然后就是，好，那我们可以提升功能，提升通信速度。这样你就不需要用拇指和电脑交流了。
Joe RoganDo you ever sit down and extrapolate? Do you ever sit down and think about all the different iterations of this and what this eventually leads to?你有没有坐下来仔细推演过？有没有坐下来想过所有不同的迭代版本，以及这最终会通向哪里？
Elon MuskYeah, sure. I think about it a lot. Like I said, this is not something that’s going to sneak up on you. Getting FDA approval for this stuff is not overnight. I don’t know; we probably have to be on version 10 or something before it would realistically be a human AI symbiote situation. You’ll see it coming.有，当然。我经常想这个。就像我说的，这不是会突然冒出来吓你的东西。为这类东西获得 FDA 批准不是一夜之间的事。我不知道；我们大概需要到第十代左右，才现实地可能出现人类与 AI 共生的情况。你会看到它一步步走来的。
Joe RoganYou see it coming, but what do you think it’s going to be? When you’re alone, if you have free time, I don’t know if you have free time, but if you just sit down and think about this iteration, the next, onward, keep going, and you drag it out with improvements along the way and leaps and bounds and technological innovations. Where do you see it? What are we going to be?你能看到它走来，但你认为它会是什么样子？当你一个人待着，如果你有空闲时间——我不知道你是否有空闲时间——但如果你坐下来想象这一代，下一代，再往后，一路往下，伴随着一路的进步和飞跃，以及技术创新，你认为它会是什么？我们会变成什么？
Elon MuskLike when?什么时候的状态？
Joe Rogan20, 25 years from now? What are we going to be?20 到 25 年后？我们会变成什么？
Elon MuskWell, assuming civilization is still around, it’s looking fragile right now. I think we could have…- in 25 years probably, I would think there could be a whole brain interface.嗯，假设文明还存在的话——现在看起来它相当脆弱。我认为我们可能会有……25 年后，我想可能会有全脑接口吧。
Joe RoganA whole brain interface?全脑接口？
Elon MuskSomething pretty close to that. Yeah.差不多接近那个水平。对。
Joe RoganWhat do you mean by whole brain interface?全脑接口是什么意思？
Elon MuskAlmost all the neurons are connected to the sort of AI extension of yourself. If you want.几乎所有的神经元都与你自己的某种 AI 延伸连接起来。如果你愿意的话。
Joe RoganAI extension of yourself.你自己的 AI 延伸。
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Joe RoganWhat does that mean to you when you say AI Extension of yourself?当你说 AI 延伸的时候，那对你来说意味着什么？
Elon MuskWell, like I said, you already have a computer extension of yourself with your phone and computers and stuff. So, and now online, it’s like somebody dies, there’s like an online ghost, they’re still… their online stuff is still alive.嗯，就像我说的，你已经通过手机和电脑之类的东西拥有了自己的计算机延伸。所以，现在在网上，就好像一个人死了，但有一个在线的"鬼魂"，他们的在线内容还活着。
Joe RoganThat’s a good way to put it. It is weird when you read someone’s tweets after they’re dead.这个说法不错。确实很奇怪，读一个已经死去的人的推文。
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Joe RoganYeah.对。
Elon MuskInstagram and their stories and whatever, Facebook and stuff, the e-mails…Instagram 上的动态和故事，Facebook，电子邮件……
Joe RoganThat’s a great way to put it. It’s like an online ghost. That’s very accurate.这个说法太准了。就像一个在线的鬼魂。这个比喻非常贴切。
Elon MuskYeah. So it would just be that more of you would be in the cloud, I guess, than in your body.对。所以这就是说，你有更多的自己存在于云端，而不是你的身体里了，我猜。
Joe RoganWhoa. Now, when you say civilization’s fragile, do you mean because of this COVID-19 shit that’s going on right now?哇。那你说文明很脆弱，是因为现在正在发生的这个 COVID-19 的事情吗？
Elon MuskWhat’s that? I never heard of it.什么？我从没听说过这个。
Joe RoganIt’s this thing, it’s like some people just get a cough.就是那个东西，有的人就只是咳嗽。
Elon MuskI have no idea what you’re talking about.我完全不知道你在说什么。
Joe RoganOther people, it gets much worse.另一些人，情况就严重得多了。
Elon MuskSure. Well, yeah. I mean, this certainly has taken over the mind space of the world to a degree that is quite shocking.哦，当然。嗯，是的，这件事占据了全世界人心智空间的程度确实相当惊人。
Joe RoganYeah. Well, out of nowhere. That’s what’s crazy. It’s like you go back to November, nothing. Now here we are, December, January, February, March, April, May, six months. Totally different world. So from nothing to, everything’s locked down. There’s so much conflicting information and conflicting opinions about how to proceed. What has happened? You find things where there was a meatpacking plant, I believe in Missouri where 300 plus people were asymptomatic, tested positive asymptomatic.对，就是凭空冒出来的，这才是最疯狂的。就好像你回到十一月，什么都没有。现在到了十二月、一月、二月、三月、四月、五月，六个月过去了，世界完全变了样。从什么都没有，到一切都封锁了。关于如何应对，有太多相互矛盾的信息和相互矛盾的意见。究竟发生了什么？你会看到一些报道，比如我记得密苏里州有一家肉类加工厂，300 多人检测阳性但没有症状。
Joe RoganThen in other places, it just ravages entire communities and kills people, and it’s so weird. It almost appears, if you didn’t know any better, you’d be like, what? It seems like there’s a bunch of different viruses. It doesn’t seem like it’s the same thing or has a bunch of different reactions to the biological variety of people.然后在另一些地方，它就把整个社区打垮，造成死亡，非常奇怪。如果你事先不知道，你会觉得，什么？这看起来像是好几种不同的病毒。它不像是同一种东西，或者它对人群生物学多样性的反应差异巨大。
Elon MuskYeah, I mean, I kind of saw this whole thing play out in China before it played out in the US. So it’s kind of like watching the same movie again but in English. I think the mortality rate is much less than what the World Health Organization said it was. It’s much, much less. It’s like probably at least an order of magnitude less.是啊，我是说，我在它在美国爆发之前，就看着这整件事在中国发生了。所以有点像是看同一部电影的英文版。我认为死亡率比世界卫生组织说的要低得多，低得多得多。大概至少低了一个数量级。
Joe RoganWell, it seems to be very deadly to very specific kinds of people and people with specific problems.嗯，它似乎对非常特定类型的人、有特定健康问题的人才是非常致命的。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, you can look at the mortality statistics by age and whether they have comorbidities, like do they have basically existing conditions and by age. If you’re below 60 and have no serious health issues, the probability of death is extremely low. It’s not zero, but it’s extremely low.对。我是说，你可以按年龄和是否有基础疾病——也就是既往病史——来看死亡率数据。如果你年龄低于 60 岁且没有严重的健康问题，死亡的概率极低。不是零，但极低。
Joe RoganThey didn’t think that this was the case, though, when they first started to lock down the country. Do you think that it’s a situation where once they’ve proceeded in a certain way, it’s very difficult to correct course?不过，当他们最初开始封锁全国的时候，他们并不是这么认为的。你认为这是一种局面——一旦以某种方式推进，就很难纠偏？
Elon MuskIt’s almost like people really wanted a panic. It’s quite crazy.简直就好像人们非常想要恐慌一样。相当疯狂。
Joe RoganBut in some places, a panic is deserved, right? Like if you’re in the ICU in Manhattan and people are dying left and right and everyone’s on intubators. It seems like when you see all these people on ventilators, and so many of them are dying, and you see these nurses are dying and doctors are getting sick. In some places, that fear is justified, but then in other places, you’re reading these stories about hospitals that are essentially half empty. They’re having to furlough doctors and nurses because there’s no work for them.但在某些地方，恐慌是有道理的，对吧？就比如你在曼哈顿的 ICU，人们在左右两边不断死去，所有人都插着插管。当你看到这么多人需要呼吸机，其中很多人在死去，你看到这些护士在死，医生在生病。在某些地方，那种恐惧是有道理的，但在另一些地方，你又看到医院基本上只有一半满——他们不得不让医生和护士放无薪假，因为没有工作给他们干。
Elon MuskMost of the hospitals in the United States right now are half empty. In some cases, they’re at 30% capacity.美国大多数医院现在都只有一半满。有些情况下，他们的床位使用率只有 30%。
Joe RoganIs this because they’ve decided to forgo elective procedures and normal things that people would have to go to the hospital for?这是因为他们决定暂停择期手术和人们通常需要去医院做的日常事务吗？
Elon MuskYes. I mean, we’re not talking about just…- some of these elective procedures are quite important. Like you have a bad heart.是的。我是说，我们说的可不只是……有些择期手术是相当重要的。比如你心脏有问题。
Joe RoganGall bladder disease, yeah, sure.胆囊病之类的，对，当然。
Elon MuskYou need a triple bypass. It’s sort of elective, but if you don’t get it done in time, you’re going to die.你需要做三重心脏搭桥手术。这在某种程度上是"择期"的，但如果你不及时去做，你就会死。
Joe RoganYeah, elective is a weird word.对，"择期"这个词用得很奇怪。
Elon MuskElective. It’s not like…- this isn’t like plastic surgery."择期"，不是说……这不是什么整形手术。
Joe RoganRight, right.对，对。
Elon MuskIt’s more like my hip is…- I’m in extreme pain because my hip’s blown out or my knee, and I don’t want to go to the hospital. I can’t go to the hospital. People are in extreme pain, people that need a kidney, people that have quite serious issues that are choosing not to go out of fear. So I think it’s a problem; that’s not good.更像是我的髋关节……我因为髋关节垮掉或者膝盖的问题而痛苦不堪，但我不想去医院，我去不了医院。人们在忍受极度的疼痛，需要肾脏的人，有相当严重问题的人，因为恐惧而选择不出门。所以我认为这是个问题，这不好。
Joe RoganIt seems like the state of public perception is shifting.看来公众认知的状态正在转变。
Elon MuskIt is.是的。
Joe RoganLike people are taking some deep breaths and relaxing, and because of the statistics, essentially across the board, it’s being recognized that it’s not as fatal as we thought it was. Still dangerous, still worse than a flu, but not as bad as we thought or we feared it could be.就像人们深吸一口气，放松下来，因为统计数据表明，总体而言，人们开始认识到它没有我们以为的那么致命。仍然危险，仍然比流感更严重，但没有我们以为的、或者担心的那么糟。
Elon MuskObjectively, the mortality is much lower. At least a factor of 10, maybe a factor of 50 lower than initially thought.客观地说，死亡率低得多。至少低了 10 倍，也许低了 50 倍，比最初预估的要低。
Joe RoganDo you think that the current way we’re handling this, the social distancing, the mask, the locking down, does this make sense? Is it adequate? Or do you think that we should move back to at least closer to where we used to be?你认为我们目前的应对方式——社交距离、口罩、封锁——是有道理的吗？够用吗？还是你认为我们应该至少回到更接近以前的状态？
Elon MuskWell, I think proper hygiene is a good thing no matter what.嗯，我认为不管怎样，良好的卫生习惯是好事。
Joe RoganYes.是的。
Elon MuskWash your hands and if you’re coughing, stay at home or wear a mask because it’s not good. They do that in Japan. That’s normal. If you’re ill, you wear a face mask, and you don’t cough on people. I think that would be a great thing to adopt in general throughout the world. Washing your hands is also good.洗手，如果你在咳嗽，就待在家里或者戴口罩，因为这不好。日本人就是这么做的。如果你生病了，就戴口罩，不往别人身上咳。我认为在全世界普遍采纳这一点会是很棒的事情。洗手也是好事。
Joe RoganWell, there’s a speculation why men get it more than women because men are disgusting. We don’t wash our hands as much.有一种猜测说，男性比女性更容易感染，是因为男人太恶心了。我们洗手洗得没那么勤。
Elon MuskMen are disgusting, it’s true. It’s bad.男人确实很恶心，这是真的。很糟糕。
Joe RoganIt’s true, I admit it, we are all men in this room. We’re all gross.是真的，我承认，我们这屋子里都是男人，我们都很邋遢。
Elon MuskYeah. Just go to the restroom; you can see it’s horrible.对。去趟厕所你就知道了，那真的很恐怖。
Joe RoganYes, we’re gross. My nine-year-old daughter yells at me; she goes, “Did you wash your hands?” She makes me go back and wash my hands. She’s right. Nine years old. If I had a nine-year-old boy, do you think he would care? He wouldn’t give a fuck if I washed my hands.是的，我们很邋遢。我九岁的女儿会冲我吼："你洗手了吗？"然后逼我回去洗手。她是对的，才九岁。如果我有个九岁的儿子，你觉得他会在乎吗？他才不会管我洗不洗手呢。
Elon MuskTrue. And I think that there’s definitely some silver linings here in improved hygiene and-确实。我认为这件事肯定有些积极的一面，比如改善了卫生习惯，还有——
Joe RoganAnd awareness of potential.以及对潜在风险的意识提升。
Elon MuskYes. I think this has shaken up the system. The system is somewhat moribund with lot of layers of bureaucracy, and I think that we’ve cut through some of that bureaucracy. And at some point, there probably will be a pandemic with a high mortality rate. Debate about like what’s high, but I mean something that’s killing a lot of 20-year-olds, let’s say. Like if you had Ebola type of mortality.是的。我认为这件事撼动了整个系统。这个系统已经有点僵化，层层官僚叠加，我认为我们已经在某种程度上突破了部分官僚障碍。而且在某个时间点，可能真的会出现一场高死亡率的大流行病。关于什么叫"高"，可以争论，但我的意思是那种能大量杀死 20 岁年轻人的东西，就像 Ebola 那种死亡率一样。
Joe RoganSpanish flu, something that attacks the immune systems of healthy people.西班牙流感之类的，攻击健康人免疫系统的那种。
Elon MuskYeah. Like killing large numbers of young, healthy people, define that as a high mortality. This is at least practice for something like that. And I think there’s – this given – it’s just a matter of time, that there will be eventually some such pandemic.对，就是那种大量杀死年轻健康人的，把它定义为高死亡率。这至少是为类似事件的演练。而且我认为——这是一定会发生的——只是时间问题，最终某种这样的大流行病会来临。
Joe RoganDo you think that in a sense, the one good thing that we might get out of this is the realization that this is a potential reality? That we got lucky in the sense? I mean people that didn’t get lucky and died, of course; I’m not disrespecting their death and their loss. But I’m saying overall, as a culture, as a human race, as a community, this is not as bad as it could have been. This is a good dry run for us to appreciate that we need far more resources dedicated towards understanding these diseases, what to do in the case of a pandemic, and much more money that goes to funding, treatments, and some preventative measures.你认为某种程度上，我们从这件事里能得到的一件好事，是意识到这是一种潜在的现实？我们在某种意义上是幸运的——当然，那些没有那么幸运并且死去的人不在此列；我不是在漠视他们的死亡和他们的损失。但我说的是整体上，作为一种文化，作为人类，作为一个群体，这次没有它本可以有的那么糟。这对我们来说是一次很好的"干跑"，让我们意识到，我们需要投入多得多的资源来理解这些疾病，研究大流行病发生时该怎么做，并投入更多的资金用于研发治疗方法和预防措施。
Elon MuskYeah, absolutely. And I think there’s a good chance; it’s highly likely, I think, coming out of this that we will develop vaccines that we didn’t have before for coronaviruses, other viruses, and possibly cures for these. And our understanding of viruses of this nature has improved dramatically because of the attention that it’s received. So there’s definitely a lot of silver linings here.对，完全正确。我认为很有可能——我认为非常有可能——走出这段经历后，我们将研发出之前没有的针对冠状病毒和其他病毒的疫苗，以及可能的治愈方法。我们对这类病毒性质的理解，因为它所受到的关注而得到了显著提升。所以这里肯定有很多积极的一面。
Joe RoganPotentially, if we act correctly.如果我们行动正确的话，有可能。
Elon MuskYeah. I think there will be some silver linings here, no matter what. Hopefully, we can get more of silver linings than less.对。我认为不管怎样，这里都会有一些积极的一面。希望我们能获得更多而非更少的积极面。
Joe RoganYeah.对。
Elon MuskSo yeah, this is just kind of like a practice run for something that might in the future have a serious, like a really high mortality rate, and we kind of got to go through this without it being something that kills vast numbers of young, healthy people.所以，是的，这就像是为某种未来可能具有真正高死亡率——像是能大量杀死年轻健康人的那种——大流行病的预演，而我们经历这一切的时候，它还不是那种能大量杀死年轻健康人的东西。
Joe RoganYeah. When you made a series of tweets recently, I don’t remember the exact wording, but essentially you were saying, “Free America now.” Like, let’s open it back-对。你最近发了一系列推文，我记不清确切措辞了，但大意是"Free America now"，就像，让我们重新开放——
Elon MuskThat is the exact wording.那就是原话。
Joe RoganThat is it? Thank you. How much do you pay attention to the response to that stuff, and what was the response like? Did anybody go, “Hey man, what the fuck you doing?” Did anybody pull you aside?就是这样？谢谢。你对那些东西的反应有多关注，反应是什么样的？有没有人说，"老兄，你在干嘛？"有没有人私下把你拉到一边？
Elon MuskYeah, of course.有，当然。
Joe RoganWho does that? Who gets to do that to you?谁会这么做？谁有资格这么对你？
Elon MuskWell, I mean, I certainly get that. There’s no shortage of negative feedback on Twitter.嗯，我是说，我肯定会收到这些。Twitter 上从来不缺负面反馈。
Joe RoganOh yeah. Twitter. Yeah, but I don’t read that. Do you read it?哦，是啊，Twitter。对，但我不看那些。你看吗？
Elon MuskIt’s a war zone.那是个战场。
Joe RoganYou do sometimes, though. Right? You do read it?你有时候会看的，对吧？你会看吗？
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, I scroll through the comments. Like I said, it’s a meme war zone. I mean, people knife you good and thorough.会，我就是刷一下评论。就像我说的，那是个表情包战场。我是说，人们捅你又准又狠。
Joe RoganIt’s something I enjoy about it. Something about the freedom of expression that comes from all these people that do attack you. It’s like, if there was no vulnerability whatsoever, they wouldn’t attack you. And it’s like there’s something about these millions and millions of perspectives that you have to appreciate, even if it comes your way, even if the shit storm hits you in the face.这是我喜欢它的一个地方。那些攻击你的人，那种来自这么多人的表达自由，有某种东西让人喜欢——如果没有任何弱点，他们就不会攻击你。就好像，这数百万数百万不同的视角，你不得不去欣赏，即便它打到了你，即便这场骂战正对着你的脸砸来。
Joe RoganYou got to appreciate, “Wow. How amazing is it that all these people do have the ability to express themselves?” I mean, you don’t necessarily want to be there when the shit hits you. You might want to get out of the way in anticipation of the shit storm, but the fact that so many people have the ability to reach out… – And I think it’s in a lot of ways a – I don’t want to say a misused resource – but it’s like giving monkeys guns.你得感叹，"哇，这么多人居然都能表达自己，真是了不起。"我的意思是，你不一定想亲身经历那阵粪风袭来的瞬间。也许你想在粪风暴来临之前先躲开，但这么多人都能发声这件事本身……我觉得在很多方面，这是一种——我不想说是被滥用的资源——但就像是把枪交给猴子。
Joe RoganThey just start, “Da, da, da.” They start gunning down things that are in front of them without any realization of what they’re doing. They have a rock, they see a window, they throw it. “Whoo, look at that. I got Elon mad. Look at that. This guy got mad at me. I fucking took this person down on Twitter. I got this lady fired. Oh, the fucking business is going under because of Twitter Wars.” It seems like there’s something about it that’s this newfound thing that, I don’t want to say abuse, but just, I want to say that it’s almost like you hit the button and things blow up. You’re like, “Wow, what else can we blow up?”它们就开始"哒哒哒"，对着眼前的东西一顿乱扫，完全不知道自己在干什么。看到石头，看到窗户，就扔过去。"哇，看那个，我把 Elon 惹火了。看，这家伙被我气到了。我他妈的在 Twitter 上把这个人干翻了。我让这个女的丢了工作。哦，这家伙的生意因为 Twitter 大战正在完蛋。"感觉这东西有种特质，就是一种新发现的玩意儿，我不想说滥用，但就是……我想说，你一按按钮，东西就炸了，你就会想，"哇，还有什么可以炸掉？"
Elon MuskSure. I mean, I’ve been in the Twitter war zone for a while here, so…当然。我是说，我在 Twitter 战区待了挺长一段时间了，所以……
Joe RoganTwitter war zone.Twitter 战区。
Elon MuskIt takes a lot to faze me at this point.现在得花很大力气才能让我心神不宁了。
Joe RoganYeah, that’s good too, right? Like you develop a thick skin.是啊，这也是好事，对吧？你练出了厚脸皮。
Elon MuskYeah. You can’t take it personally. A lot of these people don’t actually know you. It’s like if you’re fighting a war and there’s like some opposing soldier that shoots at you, it’s not like they hate you. They don’t even know you. So just think of it like that. Like they have fire and bullets, whatever. But they don’t know you, so don’t take it personally.对。不能往心里去。很多人根本不认识你。就好比你在打仗，对面的士兵朝你射击，那不是因为他们恨你，他们根本不认识你。就这么想：他们有火力和子弹，随便。但他们不认识你，所以不要往心里去。
Joe RoganThere’s something interesting about it too. When you write something in 280 characters and they write something, it’s such a crude way. It’s like someone sending opposing smoke signals. They refute your smoke signals. It’s so crude. And especially when you’re talking about something like Neuralink. You’re talking about some future potential where you’re going to be able to express pure thoughts that get conveyed through some sort of a universal language with no ambiguity whatsoever versus tweets.这里面还有个有意思的东西。你们各自用 280 个字写点什么，然后互相反驳，这种方式太粗糙了。就像是有人在用烽火信号对抗你的烽火信号。驳倒你的信号。太粗糙了。尤其是当你讨论的是 Neuralink 这样的东西——你谈的是某种未来潜力，你能够表达纯粹的思想，通过某种没有任何歧义的通用语言传达出去——然后再对比一下推文，这个反差……
Elon MuskWell, there will always be some ambiguity, but tweets, it’s hard. But maybe there should be a sarcasm flag or something. Or a “just kidding” or-嗯，总会有一些歧义，但推文确实难搞。也许应该设个讽刺标记之类的东西，或者"只是开玩笑"或者——
Joe RoganIt seems like it would take away some of the fun from people that know it’s sarcasm. Like if everybody knew that The Onion wasn’t… – If you sent people articles, it was something about someone getting angry at an Onion article.感觉那样会剥夺懂讽刺的人的乐趣。就好比，如果人人都知道《洋葱报》不是真的……——我记得有什么事是说有人被一篇《洋葱报》的文章气到了。
Elon MuskWow, that’s amazing.哇，那太妙了。
Joe RoganYou know what I mean? Where they don’t realize what it is. There’s something fun about that for everybody else.你懂我意思吗？他们没认出那是什么。对其他人来说，这里面有种乐趣。
Elon MuskYeah, I think it’s pretty great. It might be the best news source.对，我觉得挺棒的。它可能是最好的新闻来源。
Joe RoganDo you know who Titania McGrath is? Hilarious, it’s Andrew Boyle. He’s a British fellow. Brilliant guy who’s been on the podcast before, and he has this a fictional character, this a pseudonym Titania McGrath who’s like the ultimate social justice warrior.你知道 Titania McGrath 吗？超好笑，那是 Andrew Boyle 创作的。他是个英国人，很有才华，来过我的播客，他创作了这个虚构角色，这个化名叫 Titania McGrath，是那种极致的"社会正义战士"。
Elon MuskIs this, like, a female avatar?这个，是个女性化身？
Joe RoganYes.是的。
Elon MuskOh, okay.哦，好的。
Joe RoganA female avatar that’s actually a computer conglomeration of a bunch of faces. It’s not really one person. So, one person can’t be a victim and be angry, but he’s sort of combined these faces to make this one perfect social justice warrior. But I recognized it early on before I met him that this was parody. This was just fun. And then I love reading the people that don’t recognize that. They get angry. And there’s a lot of people that just get really furious. There’s some fun to that. There’s some fun to the not picking up on the true nature of the signal.一个女性化身，其实是用一堆真实面孔通过电脑合成的，不是真实的某一个人。这样就没有哪一个人会是受害者，也没有人会去生气，但他把这些面孔拼在一起，打造出了这个完美的"社会正义战士"。我很早就看出来这是恶搞了，在我认识他之前。这纯粹就是好玩。然后我最喜欢看那些没看出来的人，他们会很愤怒。还有很多人真的会暴怒。这里面有种乐趣。不识破信号真实本质，这本身就有种乐趣。
Elon MuskI find Twitter quite engaging.我觉得 Twitter 挺有意思的。
Joe RoganHow do you have the time?你哪来的时间？
Elon MuskWell, I mean, it’s like five minutes every couple of hours type thing. It’s not like I’m sitting on it all day.嗯，就是每隔几个小时刷五分钟那种。不是整天坐在上面。
Joe RoganBut even five minutes every couple hours, if those are bad five minutes, they might be bouncing around your head for the next 30.但就算是每隔几个小时五分钟，如果那五分钟很糟糕，可能接下来三十分钟你都在脑子里转。
Elon MuskYeah, you have to, like I said, take a certain amount of distance from… You read this and be like, “Okay, it’s bullets being fired by an opposing army.” Like I said, it’s not like they know you. Don’t take it personally.对，就像我说的，你得和这些东西保持一定的距离。读到这些东西，就想，"好吧，这是对面军队射过来的子弹。"就像我说的，他们又不认识你。别往心里去。
Joe RoganDid you feel the same way when CNN had that stupid shit about ventilators with you? I found that both confusing and-你对 CNN 就那个呼吸机的烂事有没有同感？我当时觉得那件事既让人困惑又……
Elon MuskYeah. That was annoying.对，那很烦人。
Joe RoganIt was annoying.很烦人。
Elon MuskIt was wrong.而且是错的。
Joe RoganBut it’s also annoying as a person who reads CNN and wants to think of them as a responsible conveyor of the facts. I would like to think that.但对于那些读 CNN、想把它当作负责任的事实传播者的人来说，这也很烦人。我本来想这么想的。
Elon MuskWell, yeah. I don’t think CNN is that.嗯，是的。我不觉得 CNN 是那样的。
Joe RoganI think it used to be.我觉得它以前是的。
Elon MuskIt used to be, yeah. What do you think’s the best source of just information out there?以前是的，对。你觉得现在有什么是最好的信息来源？
Joe RoganThat’s a good question.这是个好问题。
Elon MuskLet’s say you’re just the average citizen trying to just get the facts, figure out what’s going on. How to live your life and looking for what’s going on in the world. It’s hard to find something that’s good. Not trying to push some partisan angle, not doing sloppy reporting, and just aim it for the most number of clicks and trying to maximize ad dollars and that kind of thing. You’re just trying to figure out what’s going on. It’s like, I’m hard-pressed to where do you go?假设你只是个普通公民，就想了解事实，搞清楚发生了什么、怎么过日子、关注一下世界动态。很难找到一个好的来源。不带党派立场，不做粗制滥造的报道，不只为了追求点击量最大化、最大化广告收入那种。就是想搞清楚发生了什么。说实话，我想不出该去哪儿找。
Joe RoganI don’t know. I don’t think there’s any pure form. My favorite places are the New York Times and the LA Times, and I don’t trust them a hundred percent. Because also, there’s individuals that are writing these stories. And that seems to be the problems, these individual biases, and these individuals… there’s purposely distorted perceptions, and then there’s ignorantly reported facts, and there’s so many variables. And you got to put everything through this filter of, “Where’s this person coming from? Do they have political biases? Did they have social biases? Are they upset because of their own shortcomings? And are they projecting this into the story?” It’s so hard.我也不知道。我觉得没有什么纯粹的形式。我比较喜欢的是《纽约时报》和《洛杉矶时报》，但我也不是百分之百信任它们。因为写这些报道的是个体，这似乎就是问题所在——个体的偏见，有些个体是故意扭曲认知，有些是在无意中误报事实，变量太多了。你得把每件事都过一遍这个滤网：这个人是从哪个立场来的？他们有政治偏见吗？有社会偏见吗？他们是不是在用自己的挫折来投射情绪、写进报道？太难了。
Elon MuskYeah. I think maybe just trying to find individual reporters that you think are good and kind of following them as opposed to publication.对。我觉得也许就是去找你认为靠谱的个别记者，然后关注他们这个人，而不是关注某个媒体机构。
Joe RoganI go with whatever Matt Taibbi says. I trust him more than anybody. Matt Taibbi is onto something. As far as investigative reporters in particular, the way he reported the savings and loan crisis, the way he reports everything. I just listened to him above most. He’s my go-to guy.我听 Matt Taibbi 的。我最信任他，超过任何人。Matt Taibbi 有一套真正的东西。就调查记者而言，他报道储贷危机的方式，他报道任何事情的方式。我把他排在大多数人之上。他是我的首选。
Elon MuskAll right. I’ll check it out.好的，我去看看。
Joe RoganOh, his Rolling Stone articles are amazing. His stuff on the savings and loan crisis, it’s just like, “What in the fuck?” And he’s not an economist by any stretch of the imagination. So he had to really deeply embed himself in that world to try to understand it and to be able to report on it. And also with a humorous flair.哦，他在《滚石》的文章太厉害了。他关于储贷危机的报道，就是那种"这他妈是怎么回事？"的感觉。他本身不是经济学家，所以他必须真正深入那个世界，去理解它，然后才能报道它。而且还带着幽默感。
Joe RoganThere’s not that many of them. It’s hard. And not a location where like, we are no bullshit, Wearenobullshit.com, like the one place where you can say, “This is what we know, this is what we don’t know. This is what we think.” Not, “This person’s wrong, and here’s why.” Like, ah, God damn it. I can’t. You don’t know. There’s a lot of stuff that is open to interpretation.这样的人不多。很难。也没有那种地方，就像 Wearenobullshit.com 这样的，一个可以说"这是我们知道的，这是我们不知道的，这是我们的判断"的地方。不是那种"这个人错了，原因如下"。唉，真烦人。你又不知道。很多事情本来就有多种解读。
Joe RoganThis particular coronavirus issue that we’re dealing with right now seems to be a great illuminator of that very fact. Is that there’s so much data. And there’s so much that’s open to interpret. There’s so many things… because it’s all happening in real-time. Right? And particularly right now in California, we’re in stage two tomorrow, or Friday, two days from now. Stage two. Retail stores opening up. Things are changing. Like, no one knows the correct process that needs to take place to save the most amount of lives, but yet ensure that our culture and that our economy survives. It’s a lot of speculation and guessing. But if you go to certain places, they’ll tell you, “We know why, and we know this, and we know…” Oh, it’s hard.我们现在正在应对的这场新冠疫情，非常清楚地说明了这一点。有海量的数据，有大量可以解读的空间，有太多……因为这一切都在实时发生。对吧？尤其是现在，在加利福尼亚，我们明天，或者说周五，也就是两天后，进入第二阶段。第二阶段。零售店开门。情况在变化。没有人知道要拯救最多生命、同时确保我们的文化和经济能够存活下去，需要经历的正确过程是什么。大量的推测和猜测。但如果你去某些地方，他们会告诉你，"我们知道原因，我们知道这个，我们知道那个……"哦，真难。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, in general, I think we should be concerned about anything that’s a massive infringement on our civil liberties. So, you got to put a lot of weight on that. A lot of people died to win independence for the country and fight for the democracy that we have. And we should treasure that and not give up our liberties too easily. And I think we probably did that, actually.对。我的意思是，总体而言，我认为我们应该对任何大规模侵犯公民自由的事情保持警惕。所以你得给这件事赋予很大的分量。很多人为这个国家的独立而牺牲，为我们拥有的民主制度而战斗。我们应该珍惜它，不要轻易放弃我们的自由。我认为我们可能就是这么做的，说实话。
Joe RoganWell, I like what you said when you said that it should be a choice and that to require people to stay home, require people to not go to work, and to arrest people for trying to make a living. This all seems wrong. And I think it’s a wrong approach. It’s an infantilization of the society. That daddy’s going to tell you what to do.嗯，我很认同你说的那些——这应该是个人选择，强迫人们待在家里、强迫人们不能去上班，还要逮捕那些试图谋生的人，这一切看起来都是错的。我认为这是一种错误的方式。这是在把社会婴儿化，让爸爸来告诉你该怎么做。
Elon MuskFundamentally a violation of the constitution. Freedom of assembly, and it’s just, I don’t think these things stand up in court, really.这从根本上违反了宪法。集会自由，我就是，我不认为这些东西在法庭上真的站得住脚。
Joe RoganThey’re arresting people for protesting because they’re protesting and violating social distancing, and these mandates that tell people that they have to stay home.他们在逮捕抗议的人，理由是这些人在抗议时违反了社交距离，违反了那些命令人们待在家里的规定。
Elon MuskYeah. These would definitely not stand up if the Supreme court… It’s obviously a complete violation of rights.对。这些东西如果到了最高法院……显然是对权利的彻底侵犯。
Joe RoganAnd again, this is not in any way disrespecting the people who have died from this disease. That’s certainly a real thing to think of.再次强调，这绝对不是对那些因为这场疾病而去世的人的不尊重。那当然是值得认真考量的事。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, it just should be if you’re at risk, you should not be compelled to leave your house or leave a place of safety, but if you’re not at risk, or if you are at risk and you wish to take a risk with your life, you should have the right to do that.对。我的意思是，如果你属于高风险人群，你就不应该被强迫离开家或离开安全的地方；但如果你不是高风险人群，或者你是高风险人群但你愿意用自己的生命去冒险，你应该有权利这么做。
Joe RoganAnd it seems like at this point in time, particularly, our resources would be best served protecting the people that are at risk versus penalizing the people that are not at high risk for living their life the way they did, particularly having a career, and making a living, and feeding your family, paying your bills, keeping your store open, keeping your restaurant open.而且现在看来，我们的资源最好用来保护那些处于风险中的人，而不是去惩罚那些不属于高风险却还想过自己生活的人——尤其是那些有工作、要谋生、要养家糊口、要付账单、要维持店面、要维持餐厅运营的人。
Elon MuskYes. I mean, there’s a strong downside to this. So yeah, I just believe this is a free country. You should be allowed to do what you want as long as it does not endanger others.是的。我是说，这种做法有很强的负面效应。所以，我就是相信这是个自由的国家。你应该被允许做你想做的事，只要不危及他人。
Joe RoganBut that’s the thing, right? This is the argument they will bring up. You are endangering others. You should stay home for the people that, even if you’re fine, even if you know you’re going to be okay, there’s certain people that will not be okay because of your actions. They might get exposed to this thing that we don’t have a vaccine for, we don’t have a universally accepted treatment for, and then we need to… There’s two arguments, right?但问题就在这里，对吧？这就是他们会提出的论点。你在危及他人。你应该待在家里，为了那些——即使你自己没事，即使你知道你会没事——但有些人因为你的行为就会有麻烦。他们可能会接触到这个我们没有疫苗、没有普遍认可治疗方案的东西，然后我们需要……有两种论点，对吧？
Joe RoganOne argument is we need to keep going, protect the weak, protect the sick, but let’s open up the economy. The other argument is stop placing money over human lives and let’s shelter in place until we come up with some sort of a decision and let’s figure out some way to develop some sort of a universal income, universal basic income plan, or something like that, to feed people during this time while we make this transition.一种论点是：我们需要继续前进，保护弱势群体，保护病患，但同时要开放经济。另一种论点是：不要把金钱凌驾于人命之上，就地避难，直到我们做出某种决策，想出某种办法来制定某种全民基本收入计划或类似的东西，在我们完成这个过渡期间维持人们的生计。
Elon MuskYeah. I think there’s a, as I said, my opinion is if somebody wants to stay home, they should stay home. If somebody doesn’t want to stay home, they should not be compelled to stay home. That’s my opinion. If somebody doesn’t like that, well that’s my opinion. This notion, though, that you can just sort of send checks out to everybody and things will be fine is not true, obviously. There’s some people have this absurd view that the economy is like some magic horn of plenty. Like it just makes stuff. There’s just a magic horn of plenty, and the goods and services, they just come from this magic horn of plenty. And then if somebody has more stuff than somebody else, it’s because they took more from this magic horn of plenty. Now let me just break it to the fools out there.对。我想说，就像我之前说的，我的看法是：如果有人想待在家里，他们应该待在家里。如果有人不想待在家里，他们不应该被强迫待在家里。这是我的看法。如果有人不喜欢这个，那也是我的看法。但是，那种认为你只要给所有人发支票、事情就会好的想法，显然是不对的。有些人对经济持有一种荒唐的看法，认为经济就像某种魔法丰饶之角，就是不停地产出东西。有一个魔法丰饶之角，商品和服务就从这个魔法丰饶之角里冒出来。如果某人比别人拥有更多东西，那是因为他从这个魔法丰饶之角里取走的更多。我就直说给那些蠢货听吧。
Elon MuskIf you don’t make stuff, there’s no stuff. Yeah. So, if you don’t make the food, if you don’t process the food, you don’t transport the food, medical treatment, getting your teeth fixed, there’s no stuff. They’ve become detached from reality. You can’t just legislate money and solve these things. If you don’t make stuff, there is no stuff, obviously. We’ll run out of the stores, run out of the… the machine just grinds to a halt.如果你不生产东西，就没有东西。对。所以，如果你不生产食物，不加工食物，不运输食物，不提供医疗，不补牙，就没有东西。他们已经脱离现实了。你不能靠立法搞出钱来解决这些问题。如果你不生产东西，显然就没有东西。商店会被清空，……整台机器会停摆。
Joe RoganBut the initial thought on this virus, the real fear was that this was going to kill hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, instantaneously in this country. It was going to do it very quickly if we didn’t hunker down if we didn’t shelter in place, if we didn’t quarantine ourselves, or lock down. Do you think that the initial thought was a good idea based on the perception that this was going to be far more deadly than it turned out to be?但当初对这个病毒最初的想法，真正的恐惧是，这东西会在这个国家立刻杀死几十万人，甚至几百万人。如果我们不蹲下、不就地避难、不自我隔离或封锁，它会以非常快的速度做到这一点。你认为，基于当时认为这个病毒会比实际情况致命得多的感知，最初的那些决定是个好主意吗？
Elon MuskMaybe. Briefly, but I think if any kind of sensible examination of what happened in China would lead you to the conclusion that that is obviously not going to occur. This virus originated in Wuhan. There’s like, I don’t know, hundred thousand people a day leaving Wuhan. So, it went everywhere very fast throughout China, throughout the rest of the world, and the fatality rate was low.也许吧，短暂地是。但我认为，对中国发生的情况做任何稍微理性的审视，都会让你得出结论：那显然不会发生。这个病毒起源于武汉。每天大概有多少，我不知道，有十万人从武汉出发。所以它以极快的速度扩散到中国各地，扩散到世界各地，而死亡率很低。
Joe RoganDon’t you think though, it’s difficult to filter the information that’s coming out of China. To accurately, really get a real true representation of what happened. The propaganda machine is very strong. The World Health Organization appears to have been complicit with a lot of their propaganda.但你不觉得吗，过滤来自中国的信息很难。很难准确地、真实地得到一个对所发生事情的真实呈现。宣传机器非常强大。世界卫生组织似乎在很多宣传上都是同谋。
Elon MuskThe thing is that American companies have massive supply chains in China. Like Tesla, for example. We have hundreds of suppliers. Like tier one, two, three, four suppliers throughout China. So, we know if they are able to make stuff or not. We know if they have issues or not. China is back at full steam, and pretty much every US company has some significant number of suppliers in China. So you know if they’re able to provide things or not or if there’s a high mortality rate. Tesla has like 7,000 people in China. So, zero people died.问题是，美国公司在中国有庞大的供应链。比如 Tesla。我们有数百家供应商，在中国全境有一级、二级、三级、四级供应商。所以我们知道他们是否能够生产东西，知道他们是否有问题。中国现在已经满负荷运转了，而且几乎每家美国公司在中国都有相当数量的供应商。所以你知道他们是否能够提供产品，知道是否有高死亡率。Tesla 在中国有大约 7,000 名员工。没有一个人死亡。
Joe RoganOkay. So that’s a real statistic that’s coming from…好的。所以这是一个真实的统计数据，来自于……
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Joe RoganYou know those people.你认识这些人。
Elon MuskYeah. We literally run a payroll. They are still there.对，我们在给他们发工资呢。他们还在那里。
Joe RoganDo you think there’s a danger of politicizing this? Where this becomes like opening up the country as Donald Trump’s, it’s his goal, and then anything he does, there’s people that are going to oppose it and come up with some reasons why he’s wrong, particularly in this climate, as we’re leading up to November and the 2020 elections. Do you think that this is a real danger in terms of public’s perception that Trump wants to open it up, so the knee-jerk oppose it because they oppose Trump?你觉得把这件事政治化有没有危险？就是把开放国家变成 Donald Trump 的目标，然后不管他做什么，都会有人反对，都会找出理由说他错了，尤其是在这种气候下，我们正走向十一月和 2020 年大选。你认为这是不是一个真正的危险——就是公众的认知会是：Trump 想开放，所以下意识地就去反对，因为他们反对 Trump？
Elon MuskI think this has been politicized in both directions, really. Which is not great. But like I said (…1:25:54), I think there’s the question of where do civil liberties fit in this picture? And what can the government make you do, what can they make you not do, and what’s okay? And I think we went too far.我认为这件事在两个方向上都被政治化了，这不太好。但就像我说的……我认为问题是：公民自由在这幅图景中处于什么位置？政府能强迫你做什么，能强迫你不做什么，什么是合适的？我认为我们走得太远了。
Joe RoganDo you think it’s one of those things where once we’ve gone in this certain direction, it’s very difficult to make a correction? Make an adjustment to realize like, okay, we thought it was one thing. It’s not good, but it’s not what we thought it was going to be. It’s not what we feared, so let’s back up and reconsider, and let’s do this publicly and say we were acting based on the information that we had initially. That information appears to be faulty, and here’s how we move forward while protecting civil liberties while protecting what essentially this country is founded on, which is a very agreed-upon amount of freedom that we respect and appreciate.你认为这是那种一旦走上这条路就很难纠正的事情吗？很难做出调整，去认识到，好吧，我们以为是一回事，情况没好到哪里去，但也不是我们以为的那样，不是我们所恐惧的，所以让我们退一步重新考虑，然后公开地说：我们是基于当时掌握的信息做出的行动，那些信息现在看来是有缺陷的，这是我们如何在保护公民自由的同时——保护这个国家实际建立的基础，那个我们尊重和珍惜的、经过一致认可的自由量——向前推进的方式？
Elon MuskAbsolutely. Well, I think we’re rapidly moving towards opening up the country. It’s going to happen extremely fast over the next few weeks. So, yeah. Something that would be helpful just to add from an informational level is when reporting Covid cases to separate out diagnosed with Covid versus had Covid like symptoms. Because the list of symptoms that could be Covid at this point is like a mile long. So, it’s hard to… if you’re ill at all, it’s like it could be cover it. So, just to give people better information. Definitely diagnosed with Covid or had Covid like symptoms. We’re conflating those two so that it looks bigger than it is. Then if somebody dies, was Covid a primary cause of the death or not? I mean, if somebody has Covid, gets eaten by a shark, we find their arm, their arm has Covid, it’s going to get recorded as a Covid death.当然。嗯，我认为我们正在迅速走向开放国家。在接下来的几周内，这会以极快的速度发生。所以，是的。有一件事从信息层面来说会很有帮助，就是在报告 Covid 病例时，把"确诊 Covid"和"有 Covid 类似症状"这两类分开。因为目前 Covid 相关症状的清单简直有一英里长。所以，如果你感到任何不适，就可能被算成 Covid。只要给人们更好的信息就好了。确实是确诊 Covid 还是只是有类似症状——我们把这两类混在一起，让它看起来比实际更严重。然后，如果有人死亡，Covid 是主要死因还是不是？我是说，如果有人身上有 Covid，然后被鲨鱼吃了，我们找到了他的胳膊，胳膊上检测出 Covid，这就会被记录为 Covid 死亡案例。
Joe RoganIs that real?真有这种事？
Elon MuskBasically.基本上是的。
Joe RoganNot that bad, but heart attacks, strokes-没那么夸张，但心脏病、中风——
Elon MuskYou get hit by a bus.被公共汽车撞了。
Joe RoganCancer.癌症。
Elon MuskIf you get hit by a bus, go to the hospital and die, and they find that you have Covid, you will be recorded as a Covid death.如果你被公共汽车撞了，去了医院，然后死亡，而他们发现你身上有 Covid，那就会被记录为 Covid 死亡。
Joe RoganWhy would they do that, though?但为什么要这么做呢？
Elon MuskWell, right now, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I mean, it’s mostly paved with bad intentions, but there’s some good intentions in saving (…1:28:36) in there, too. And the stimulus bill that was intended to help with the hospitals that were being overrun with Covid patients created an incentive to record something as Covid that is difficult to say no to, especially if your hospital’s going bankrupt for lack of other patients. So, the hospitals are in a bind right now. There’s a bunch of hospitals, they’re furloughing doctors, as you were mentioning. If your hospital’s half full, it’s hard to make ends meet. So now you’ve got like, “If I just check this box, I get $8,000. Put them on a ventilator for five minutes, I get $39,000 back. Or, I got to fire some doctors.” So, this is a tough moral quandary. It’s like, what are you going to do? That’s the situation we have.嗯，现在这个情况，通往地狱的路是用好意铺就的。我是说，大部分是用坏意图铺的，但里面也有一些好意……那个本来是为了帮助被 Covid 患者淹没的医院的刺激法案，创造了一种将某事记录为 Covid 的激励，这种激励很难拒绝，尤其是当你的医院因为缺少其他病人而濒临破产时。所以医院现在陷入了困境。很多医院在裁员医生，就像你之前提到的。如果你的医院只有一半的床位被占用，很难维持收支平衡。所以你现在面临的是，"如果我只是勾上这个框，我能拿到 8,000 美元。让患者上呼吸机五分钟，我能拿回 39,000 美元。要不然，我就得开除一些医生。"所以这是一个艰难的道德困境。你能怎么办？这就是我们面临的处境。
Joe RoganWhat’s the way out of this? What do you think is, if you had the president’s ear, or if people wanted to just listen to you openly, what do you think is the way out of this?走出这个困境的方法是什么？你认为，如果你有机会跟总统说话，或者如果人们想公开听取你的意见，你认为走出这个困境的方法是什么？
Elon MuskLet’s just clear up the data. Clear up the data. So like I said, somebody should be recorded as Covid only if somebody has been tested – has received a positive Covid test. Not if they simply have symptoms, one of like a hundred symptoms. And then if it is a Covid death, it must be separated: Was Covid a primary reason for death, or did they also have stage three cancer, or heart disease, emphysema, and got hit by a bus and had Covid?就是理清数据。理清数据。就像我说的，只有当某人接受了检测——并且检测结果为阳性——才应该被记录为 Covid 病例。而不是仅仅因为他们有症状，哪怕只是一百种症状中的一种。然后如果确实是 Covid 死亡，必须分开来：Covid 是主要死因，还是他同时还有三期癌症、心脏病、肺气肿，并且被公共汽车撞了、身上恰好有 Covid？
Joe RoganYeah. I’ve read all this stuff about them diagnosing people as a Covid death despite other variables.对，我读过所有这些关于他们把人诊断为 Covid 死亡、尽管还有其他变量的东西。
Elon MuskThis is not a question. This is what is occurring.这不是一个问题，这就是正在发生的事。
Joe RoganAnd where are you reading this from? Where are you getting this from?你是从哪里读到的？你从哪里得到这些信息的？
Elon MuskThe public health officials have literally said this. This is not a question mark.公共卫生官员字面上就是这么说的。这不是一个问号。
Joe RoganRight. But this is unprecedented, right? If someone had the flu but also had a heart attack, they would assume that that person died of a heart attack.对。但这是前所未有的，对吧？如果有人得了流感但同时又心脏病发，他们会认为那个人死于心脏病发作。
Elon MuskYes.是的。
Joe RoganYeah. So this is unprecedented. Is this because this is such a popular – I don’t want to use that word the wrong way, but that’s what I mean – popular subject? And financial incentives.对。所以这是前所未有的。这是因为这件事太受关注了——我不想用那个词用错地方，但就是那个意思——太受关注了？以及经济上的激励？
Elon MuskYes. And like I said, this is not some sort of a moral indictment of hospital administrators. It’s just, they’re in a tough spot here. They actually don’t have enough patients to pay everyone without furloughing doctors and firing staff. They’re running potentially going bankrupt. So then they’re like, “Okay, well, the stimulus bill says we get all this money if it’s a Covid death.” I’m like, “Okay. They coughed before they died.” In fact, they’re not even diagnosed with Covid. They simply… If you had weakness, a cough, shortness of breath. Frankly, I’m not sure how you die without those things.是的。就像我说的，这不是对医院管理者某种道德上的谴责。只是他们处于一个很艰难的位置。他们实际上没有足够的病人来支付所有人的薪水，不得不裁员医生、开除员工。他们面临潜在的破产。然后他们就会想，"好吧，刺激法案说，如果是 Covid 死亡，我们能拿到这些钱。"我就说，"好，他们在死之前咳嗽了一声。"事实上，他们甚至没有被确诊为 Covid。只是……如果你有虚弱、咳嗽、呼吸急促，说实话，我不确定你怎么能在没有这些症状的情况下死亡。
Joe RoganRight. There’s so many different things that you could attribute to Covid, too. There’s so many symptoms. There’s diarrhea, headaches, dehydration, cough.对。还有很多不同的东西都可以被归因于 Covid。症状太多了，腹泻、头痛、脱水、咳嗽。
Elon MuskYes. But to be clear, you don’t even need to have gotten a Covid diagnosis. You simply need to have had one of many symptoms and then have died for some reason, and it’s Covid. So, then it makes the death count look very high, and we’re then stuck in a bind because it looks like the death count’s super high and not going down like it should be. So then, we should keep whatever, keep the shelter in place stuff there, and keep people in their homes, confine people to their homes. So we need to break out of this. We’re stuck in a loop. And I think the way to break out of this loop is to have clarity of information.是的。但要说清楚，你甚至不需要得到 Covid 的确诊。你只需要有众多症状中的一种，然后因为某种原因死亡，就算是 Covid 了。于是死亡人数看起来非常高，我们就被困住了，因为看起来死亡人数超高而且没有如预期般下降。所以我们就应该继续保持就地避难之类的状态，继续把人关在家里，继续禁足。所以我们需要打破这个局面。我们陷入了一个循环。我认为打破这个循环的方法就是让信息清晰透明。
Joe RoganThe clarity of information will certainly help, but altering perceptions, public perception, from people that are basically in a panic. Well, at least a month ago, we’re clearly in a panic. I mean, when you look around April 5th, April 6th, people were really freaking out. But here we are, May, and May people are relaxing a little bit. They’re realizing like, “Hey, I actually know a couple of people that got it. It was just a cough,” and I know some people that got it where nothing happened.信息清晰透明肯定会有帮助，但改变公众观念——从那些基本上处于恐慌中的人身上——嗯，至少一个月前，我们显然处于恐慌之中。我是说，看看四月五日、四月六日，人们真的在崩溃。但现在到了五月，五月份人们稍微放松了一些。他们意识到，"嘿，我其实认识几个人得了，就是咳了咳嗽"，我也知道一些人得了，什么事都没发生。
Elon MuskI know a lot of people who got it. I know zero people who died, but I know a lot of people that got it.我认识很多得了的人。我不认识一个死的人，但我认识很多得了的人。
Joe RoganIt’s not what we feared. We feared something much worse.这不是我们所担心的那样。我们担心的是更严重得多的东西。
Elon MuskThat is correct.没错。
Joe RoganSo the adjustment’s difficult to make. So you said, first of all, we need real data. We need-所以做出调整很难。那你说，首先，我们需要真实的数据，我们需要——
Elon MuskJust parse out the data. Don’t lump it all together. If you give people, just parse out the data better, clearer information about, like I said, was this an actual COVID diagnosis? Did they get the test, and the test came back positive, or do they just have some symptoms? Just parse those two out, and then parse out just, if somebody died, did they even have a Covid test, or did they just have one of many symptoms? How do you die without weakness? I don’t know. It’s impossible, basically.就是把数据拆解清楚。别把所有东西混在一起。如果你给人们提供数据，就把数据分解得更清楚、更明确——就像我说的，这是真正经过确诊的 Covid 吗？他们做了检测，检测结果是阳性？还是只是有某些症状？把这两类分开，然后再分开——如果有人死了，他们是否甚至做过 Covid 检测？还是只是有许多症状中的一种？你怎么可能在没有虚弱的情况下死亡？我不知道。基本上不可能。
Joe RoganOf course. Yeah, it’s a good point.当然。是的，说得好。
Elon MuskIf you’re going to die, you’re going to have shortness of breath, weakness, and you might cough a little.如果你要死，你会呼吸急促、虚弱，可能也会咳嗽。
Joe RoganSo was it quantified? Was it?那有没有被量化？被量化了吗？
Elon MuskYeah, did that person, did they actually have a Covid test, and the test came back positive? And then if they died, did they die where Covid was… It doesn’t have to be the main cause, but was it a significant contributor to their death, or was it not a significant contributor to the death?对，这个人，他们有没有真正做过 Covid 检测，检测结果是否为阳性？然后如果他们死了，他们的死亡是不是……Covid 不一定是主要原因，但它是否对死亡有重大贡献，还是对死亡没有重大贡献？
Joe RoganRight. It’s not as simple as just because you had Covid; Covid killed you.对。不能因为你有 Covid 就说 Covid 杀死了你，这没那么简单。
Elon MuskDefinitely not. I mean, people die all the time, and they have like flu and other colds, and we don’t say that they died of those flu and other colds. It’s absurd.绝对不是。我是说，人们一直在死，他们也有流感和其他感冒，我们并不说他们死于那些流感和感冒。这是荒谬的。
Joe RoganWell, that’s what’s so weird about this. It’s so popular, and I use that word in a weird way, but it’s so popular that we’ve kind of forgotten people die of pneumonia every day. People die of… The flu didn’t take a break. “Oh, Covid got this. I’m going to sit this one out. I’m going to be on the bench. I’m going to wait until Covid’s done before I jump back into the game of killing people.” No, the flu is still here killing people.嗯，这就是这件事如此奇特的原因。它太受关注了，我用这个词的方式有点奇怪，但它太受关注了，我们已经忘记每天都有人死于肺炎。人们死于……流感没有休息。"哦，Covid 来了，我要坐这一轮。我要在场边等着，等 Covid 结束了再重新上场杀人。"不，流感还在杀人。
Elon MuskI mean, every year in the world, several hundred thousand people die directly of the flu. Not tangentially.我是说，每年在全球范围内，有几十万人直接死于流感。不是间接的。
Joe Rogan61,000 in this country last year.去年在这个国家是 61,000 人。
Elon MuskYeah. And we’re only 5% of the world.对，而我们只占全球人口的 5%。
Joe RoganAnd then there’s cigarettes.然后还有香烟。
Elon MuskSo, oh man, cigarettes. Cigarettes will really kill you.哦，老天，香烟。香烟真的会要了你的命。
Joe RoganThat’s a weird one, right? We’re terrified of this disease that was projected it could potentially kill 100,000 if not 200,000 Americans this year. But cigarettes kill 500,000, and you don’t hear a peep out of any politician. There’s no one running for Congress that’s trying to ban cigarettes. There’s no one running for Senate that wants to put some education plan in place, that’s going to stop cigarettes in their tracks.这个有点奇怪，对吧？我们对这种疾病感到极度恐惧，据预测它今年可能在美国杀死 100,000 人，甚至 200,000 人。但香烟每年杀死 500,000 人，你却听不到任何政客发出一声。没有任何一个竞选国会议员的人试图禁止香烟。没有任何一个竞选参议员的人想推行某种教育计划来彻底阻止香烟的危害。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, several years ago, or maybe longer, ten years ago, I helped make a movie called Thank You for Smoking .对。我是说，几年前，或者也许更久，大概十年前，我帮助制作了一部电影，叫《感谢你抽烟》。
Joe RoganOh, I saw that.哦，我看过。
Elon MuskYeah. It’s crazy. Barbecuing your lungs is just bad news. It’s not good. Turning your lungs into smoked beef, not great. So yeah. Tylenol, by the way, also kills a lot of people.是啊。太疯狂了。把你的肺用火烤，这就是坏消息。不是什么好事。把肺变成熏牛肉，不妙。所以，是的。顺便说一句，Tylenol 也杀了很多人。
Joe RoganWhat is the number for Tylenol every year?Tylenol 每年的数字是多少？
Elon MuskI’m not sure the exact number. But until the opioid crisis, I believe, Tylenol was the number one killer of all drugs. Because basically, if you get drunk and take a lot of Tylenol, acetaminophen, essentially, it causes liver failure. So people would like to get wasted and then have a headache and then pop a ton of Tylenol, it’s curtains.我不确定具体数字。但在阿片类药物危机之前，我相信 Tylenol 是所有药物中的头号杀手。因为基本上，如果你喝醉了然后吃了大量 Tylenol，也就是对乙酰氨基酚，它会导致肝衰竭。所以人们会喝得烂醉，然后头痛，然后吞一堆 Tylenol，就完蛋了。
Joe RoganCurtains is a funny word."完蛋了"是个好笑的词。
Elon MuskYeah. But nobody’s raging against Tylenol.对。但没有人对 Tylenol 气势汹汹。
Joe RoganYeah. It’s weird. Acceptable deaths are weird. And that’s the slippery slope about these people shaming people for wanting to go back to work. “Other people are going to die.” Well, if you drive: Do you drive? Agree you should stop driving because people die from driving. So you definitely should fill up all the swimming pools because like 50 people die every day in this country from swimming. So let’s not swim anymore.是的，奇怪。"可接受的死亡"这个东西很奇怪。这就是那种羞辱想回去上班的人的滑坡谬误。"其他人会死的。"好，那如果你开车：你开车吗？同意你应该停止开车，因为人们会死于驾驶事故。所以你肯定应该填满所有的游泳池，因为在这个国家，每天大约有 50 人因游泳而死。所以我们不要再游泳了。
Elon MuskYeah, water is really dangerous.是的，水真的很危险。
Joe RoganWe need to chop down all the coconut trees.我们需要砍掉所有椰子树。
Elon MuskStop water.停止用水。
Joe RoganCoconuts kill 150 people every year. Cut down all the coconut trees. We need those people. It’s, at a certain point in time, it’s… Yeah, we’re vulnerable, and also, we have a finite existence no matter what.椰子每年杀死 150 人。砍掉所有椰子树。我们需要那些人。在某个时间点，它就是……是啊，我们很脆弱，而且，不管怎样，我们的存在本来就是有限的。
Elon MuskWe do. Nobody lives forever.确实。没有人能长生不老。
Joe RoganRight.对。
Elon MuskI mean, I think, you want to look at say deaths as like, “but for this disease, whatever, they would have lived X number of years.” So, if somebody dies when they’re 20 and could have lived till 80, they lost 60 years. But if somebody dies when they’re 80 and they might’ve lived till 81, they lost one year. So it’s, “How many life years were lost” is probably the right metric to use.我是说，我认为，你想用这样的角度看待死亡："如果不是因为这个疾病，他们本来还能活 X 年。"所以，如果有人在 20 岁时死去，本来能活到 80 岁，他们损失了 60 年。但如果有人在 80 岁时死去，而他们本来可能活到 81 岁，他们只损失了一年。所以，"损失了多少生命年数"可能是正确的衡量指标。
Joe RoganI don’t read my own comments, but I do read other people’s comments. And I was reading this one little Twitter beef that was going on where someone was saying that Covid takes an average of ten years off people’s lives, and we should appreciate those ten years. And then someone else said-我不看自己的评论，但我会看别人的评论。我在看一场小的 Twitter 口水战，有人在说 Covid 平均会让人寿命缩短十年，我们应该重视这十年。然后另一个人说——
Elon MuskIt’s not true.这不是真的。
Joe RoganI’m sure it’s not true.我确定这不是真的。
Elon MuskYeah, definitely not.对，绝对不是。
Joe RoganIt’s Twitter, it’s the world.这是 Twitter，就是这个世界的样子。
Elon MuskOh my god.我的天哪。
Joe RoganBut someone else said, “The average age of people who die from Covid is older than the average age people die.”但另一个人说，"死于 Covid 的人的平均年龄，比人们死亡的平均年龄还要大。"
Elon MuskLet’s just say it’s about the same.就说差不多吧。
Joe RoganThat’s a beautiful way of looking at it. I mean, it’s unfortunate. It sucks, but it sucks if grandpa dies of Alzheimer’s or emphysema or leukemia. It sucks. It sucks when someone you love dies.这是一个很美的看待方式。我是说，这很遗憾。这很糟糕，但爷爷死于老年痴呆症或肺气肿或白血病也很糟糕。很糟糕。当你爱的人死去，很糟糕。
Elon MuskYes. I mean actually, I think a lesson to be taken here that I think is quite important is that if you have your grandparents and that they’re age of grandparents, really be careful with any kind of flu or cold or something that is not dangerous to kids or young adults but is dangerous to the elderly. Basically, if your kid’s got a runny nose, they should stay away from their grandparents, no matter what it is. There’re things where a young immune system has no problem; an older one has a problem. In fact, a lot of the deaths are literally, it’s tragic, but they’re intra-family. It’s, the little kid had a cold or flu and they…是的。我是说，实际上，我认为这里面有一个相当重要的教训：如果你有祖父母，他们已经是祖父母的年纪了，那对任何形式的流感或感冒都要非常小心，那些对孩子或年轻人没有危险、但对老年人有危险的疾病。基本上，如果你的孩子流鼻涕，不管是什么原因，他们都应该远离他们的祖父母。有些东西对年轻的免疫系统没有问题，但对老年人来说就是问题。事实上，很多死亡从字面意义上说，这是悲剧，但它们是家庭内部传染。小孩子得了感冒或流感，然后他们……
Joe RoganGive it to grandpa.传给了爷爷。
Elon MuskYeah. They had the family gathering. And they don’t know that this is a big deal. But it’s just important to remember when you get old; your immune system’s just not that strong. And so, just be careful with your loved ones who are elderly.对。他们进行了家庭聚会。他们不知道这是多大的事。但重要的是，当你年老的时候，你的免疫系统就没那么强了。所以，对你年迈的亲人要小心。
Joe RoganAnd I think there is some true objective understanding of the immune system and the ways to boost that immune system. And I really think that information should be distributed in a way, a nonjudgmental way, but like, “Look, this is a scientifically proven way that we can boost our immune system and it might save your life, and it might save the life of your loved ones.” And maybe we could teach this to our grandparents and our parents and people that are vulnerable. Vitamin C, heat shock proteins, all these different variables that we know contribute to a stronger immune system.我认为对免疫系统以及增强免疫系统的方法，确实存在一些真正客观的认识。我真的认为这些信息应该以一种非评判性的方式传播出去，比如，"听着，这是一种有科学依据的增强免疫系统的方法，它可能拯救你的生命，也可能拯救你亲人的生命。"也许我们可以把这些教给我们的祖父母、父母，以及那些脆弱的人。维生素 C、热休克蛋白，所有这些我们知道有助于增强免疫系统的不同变量。
Elon MuskYeah. Actually, just a thing that is tough. As you get older, you tend to put on weight; certainly, that’s happening with me. The older I get, like, “Damn, sure harder to stay lean.” That’s for sure. And so, actually, being overweight is a big deal. It’s a fact. Yeah.对。实际上，这有一件事很难做到。随着你年龄增长，你往往会增重；这肯定在我身上发生了。我越老，就感觉越难保持苗条。这是肯定的。所以，实际上，超重是个大问题。这是事实。是的。
Joe RoganThe New York hospital said it was the number one factor for severe Covid symptoms was obesity. That was the number one factor.纽约的医院说，导致严重 Covid 症状的头号因素是肥胖。这是头号因素。
Elon MuskThat’s correct. It is, yes, exactly.这是正确的，是的，确实如此。
Joe RoganBut it’s also, we live in a world where people want to be sensitive to other people’s feelings.但同时，我们生活在一个人们想对他人的感受保持敏感的世界里。
Elon MuskYeah, absolutely.是的，完全正确。
Joe RoganSo they don’t want to bring up the fact that being fat’s bad for you. It’s a judgmental on your…所以他们不想提出肥胖对你有害这件事。这对你的……是一种评判。
Elon MuskFood’s great.食物很好吃啊。
Joe RoganI do love food.我确实爱吃东西。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, to be totally frank, I mean, speaking for myself, I’d rather eat tasty food and live a shorter life.对。我是说，说实话，就我自己而言，我宁愿吃美味的食物，活得短一点。
Joe RoganYeah. Those moments of enjoying a great meal. And then even talking about it, they’re valuable. They’re worth something. Yeah. We don’t want to eat Soylent Green and live to be 160.是的。享用一顿美食的那些时刻，谈论它也是。这些都是有价值的，是值得珍惜的。是啊，我们不想靠吃 Soylent Green 活到 160 岁。
Elon MuskNo. Tasty food is great; it’s one of the best things about life.不。美食很好，是生活中最美好的事情之一。
Joe RoganIt really is. Yeah. It’s an art form as well. It’s like fine food, it’s a delicious sandcastle. It’s temporary. It doesn’t last very long. But there’s something about it that’s very pleasing.真的是。是啊。这也是一种艺术形式。就像精致料理，是一座美味的沙堡。它是短暂的，不会持续很久。但它有一种非常令人愉悦的东西。
Elon MuskYeah. I don’t know what advice to give, maybe having tasty food but smaller amounts of it.是的。我不知道该给什么建议，也许就是吃美味的食物，但量要少一些。
Joe RoganYeah. And I think regulated feeding windows, really the way to go, some sort of an intermittent fasting approach. When I started doing that, I found myself to be quite a bit healthier. When I’ve deviated from that, I’ve gained weight.对。我觉得规律的进食窗口真的很有效，某种间歇性断食的方式。当我开始这样做的时候，我发现自己健康了不少。当我偏离这个做法时，我就会增重。
Elon MuskSo, what…那你……
Joe Rogan16 hours. I’m like 16 hours. Yeah.16 小时。我是那种 16 小时的。是的。
Elon MuskSo like at night or at a certain…所以就是在晚上还是在某个特定的……
Joe RoganYeah. So I get to a certain point, and then I count out, I usually hit the stopwatch on my phone, and then I look at 15 hours, and I’m like, “Oh, okay. Got an hour before I can eat.” And so anything in between that is just water or coffee.对。所以我到了某个时间点，然后开始计时，我通常会点开手机上的秒表，然后看到 15 小时的时候，就会想，"哦，好，还有一个小时才能吃。"在这段时间里，除了水或咖啡什么都不能喝。
Elon MuskActually, this may be a useful bit of advice for people, but eating before you go to bed is a really bad idea and actually negatively affects your sleep. And it can actually cause heartburn that you don’t even know is happening, and that subtle heartburn, it affects your sleep because you’re horizontal and your body’s digesting. So if you want to improve the quality of your sleep and be healthier, it’s do not eat right before you go to sleep. It’s one of the worst things you could do.其实这可能是对人们有用的建议：睡前吃东西真的是个很糟糕的主意，实际上会对你的睡眠产生负面影响。它甚至可能导致你自己都没察觉到的烧心，而那种隐性的烧心会影响你的睡眠，因为你是平躺的，你的身体在消化食物。所以如果你想提高睡眠质量、更健康，就是：不要在睡觉前马上吃东西。这是你能做的最糟糕的事情之一。
Joe RoganSome of the biggest mistakes I’ve ever made. I’ve done that, particularly after comedy shows; if I’m starving, I’ll come home, and I’ll eat. And then I go to bed, and I just feel like shit, and I wake up in the middle of the night.这是我犯过的一些最大错误之一。我就这么做过，特别是演出结束后；如果我饿坏了，我会回家然后吃东西。然后上床睡觉，就感觉很难受，半夜会醒来。
Elon MuskIt’s going to crush your sleep, and it’s going to damage your pyloric sphincter and your esophagus. In fact, drinking and then going to sleep, that’s one of the worst things you could do. So just try to avoid drinking and eating…这会毁掉你的睡眠，还会损伤你的幽门括约肌和食道。事实上，喝酒然后去睡觉，这也是你能做的最糟糕的事之一。所以尽量避免喝酒和吃东西……
Joe RoganBooze, drinking booze.酒，喝酒。
Elon MuskYeah, exactly. Small amounts of alcohol, evidence suggests it doesn’t have a negative effect on…是的，没错。少量的酒精，证据显示对……没有负面影响。
Joe RoganI put it in the same category as delicious food. It kind of makes things a little more fun. I like it.我把它归为和美食同一类。它让一切变得更有趣一点。我喜欢。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean some of the people who’ve lived the longest, there was a woman in France who, I think, maybe has the record or close to it, and she had a glass of wine every day. Small amounts is fine. But yeah, I learned this quite late in life. It’s like, just avoid having alcohol and avoid eating at least two or three hours before going to sleep, and your quality of sleep will improve, and your general health will improve a lot.是的。我是说，有些活得最长的人，有一位法国女性，我想，也许她创下了记录或者接近记录，她每天喝一杯葡萄酒。少量是没问题的。但是，是的，这个我在生命很晚才学到。就是，睡前至少两三个小时避免饮酒和进食，你的睡眠质量会提高，你的整体健康会大幅改善。
Joe RoganFor sure, yeah.肯定的，是的。
Elon MuskIt’s a big deal, and I think, not widely known.这很重要，我认为，并不是广为人知的。
Joe RoganDo you have time to exercise?你有时间锻炼吗？
Elon MuskA little bit.有一点。
Joe RoganDo you have a trainer or anything?你有私人教练或者什么吗？
Elon MuskI do, although I haven’t seen him for a while. But yeah, especially if I’m out, say we’re working on Starship or something South Texas, and I’m just living in my – I got a little house there in Boca Chica village – and I don’t have much to do, so. Or I’m working, and I’ll just lift some weights or something. Some people love running; I don’t love running.有，尽管我已经有一段时间没见他了。但是，是的，特别是当我出去的时候，比如说我们在德克萨斯州南部研究 Starship 什么的，我就住在那里——我在 Boca Chica 村有一栋小房子——我没有太多事情要做，所以。或者我在工作，我就会举举哑铃之类的。有些人喜欢跑步；我不喜欢跑步。
Joe RoganWhat do you like to do exercise-wise?你喜欢做什么锻炼？
Elon MuskTo be totally frank, I wouldn’t exercise at all if I could. I prefer not to exercise, but if I’m going to exercise, I’ll lift some weights and then kind of run on a treadmill and maybe watch a show if there’s a compelling show that pulls you in.说实话，如果可以的话，我完全不想锻炼。我宁愿不锻炼，但如果我要锻炼，我就举举哑铃，然后在跑步机上跑一下，如果有个吸引人的节目的话，也许边看剧。
Joe RoganRight. Yeah. That’s a good thing to do. Watch a good movie or episode of Black Mirror or something like that, it’s great.对，那是个好方法。看一部好电影或者一集《黑镜》之类的，很好。
Elon MuskMan, don’t watch Black Mirror before going to bed either.老兄，睡前也别看《黑镜》。
Joe RoganWell, don’t watch Black Mirror today. It’s too fucking accurate.现在根本别看《黑镜》。它他妈的太准确了。
Elon MuskYeah, exactly. It’s like, “Wait, that’s already happened in real life.”是的，没错。就是那种，"等等，这在现实生活中已经发生了。"
Joe RoganYeah. They’re too close.是的，太近了。
Elon MuskIt’s too close.太近了。
Joe RoganWell, even… Jamie, didn’t you say that the guy who makes Black Mirror…嗯，甚至……Jamie，你不是说那个拍《黑镜》的人……
Joe RoganJami e : … Oh, my Mic’s off. Yeah, he said it’s not a good time to start season six.Jamie：……哦，我话筒关了。是的，他说现在不是开始第六季的好时机。
Joe RoganYeah, he wants to hold off because reality…是的，他想暂缓一下，因为现实……
Elon MuskHe’s nailed it?他猜中了？
Joe Rogan…is Black Mirror.……就是《黑镜》。
Elon MuskOh man.我的天。
Joe RoganIt’s like he’s going to have to reassess and attack it from a different angle.就像他不得不重新评估，从一个不同的角度去攻克它。
Joe RoganYou should try something that’s fun to do. That’s not just… – like learn a martial art or something like that.你应该尝试一些有趣的活动。不只是……——比如学一门武术什么的。
Elon MuskI did martial arts when I was a kid. Liked it.我小时候练过武术。喜欢。
Joe RoganDid you? What’d you do?是吗？你练的什么？
Elon MuskI did a Taekwondo. I did Karate, (…1:47:51)…我练过跆拳道，练过空手道……
Joe RoganOh, alright, cool.哦，好的，不错。
Elon MuskAnd Judo.还有柔道。
Joe RoganOh, so you really branched out.哦，那你涉猎挺广的。
Elon MuskYeah. And did Brazilian Jujitsu briefly.是的。还短暂练过巴西柔术。
Joe RoganDid you? Where?是吗？在哪里练的？
Elon MuskIn Palo Alto.在 Palo Alto。
Joe RoganReally?真的？
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Joe RoganOh no shit. I was going to suggest that. That’s a great thing for people. That’s a thing about Jujitsu; if you look at it from the outside, you think, “Oh, a bunch of meatheads strangling each other.”哦，没想到。我正想建议这个呢。这对很多人来说都是好东西。关于柔术有一点，从外面看，你会觉得，"哦，一帮大块头互相掐脖子。"
Elon MuskSure.当然。
Joe RoganBut they’re some of the smartest people I know, are Jujitsu fiends because, first of all, they get introduced to it because usually either they want to exercise or learn some self-defense, but then they realize that it’s essentially like a language with your body. Like you’re having an argument with someone with some sort of a physical language. And it’s really complex, and the more access to vocabulary and the sharper your words are, the more you’ll succeed in these ventures. That’s really an accurate analogy of what Jujitsu is.但我认识的一些最聪明的人，恰恰是柔术迷，因为——首先，他们接触柔术，通常要么是因为想锻炼，要么是想学点防身术，但然后他们意识到这本质上就像是一门用身体说话的语言。你在用某种肢体语言和别人争辩。它非常复杂，你拥有的词汇越丰富、你的措辞越犀利，你在这些对抗中就越成功。这真的是对柔术的一个准确比喻。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, I kind of got, probably like a lot of people, for the way-early day, the first MMA fights and Royce Gracie, and he was just like incredible. And it was like…是的。我是说，我大概是和很多人一样，被早期 MMA 比赛和 Royce Gracie 带进来的，他简直令人难以置信。就那种感觉……
Joe RoganTechnique.技术。
Elon MuskYeah. He was winning against people way bigger and that kind of thing. And it was just like, “Whoa, this is cool.”是的。他在对抗比他大得多的人，并且赢了，就是那种，"哇，这太酷了。"
Joe RoganIt was what martial arts were supposed to be when we were kids. When you saw Bruce Lee fuck-up all these big giant guys. Like, “Wow, martial arts allow you to beat someone far bigger and stronger than you.” Most of the time, that’s not real.这就是我们小时候以为武术应该是什么样的。当你看到 Bruce Lee 把那些大块头都打趴下。就像，"哇，武术让你能打败比你大得多、强得多的人。"但大多数情况下，那不是真的。
Elon MuskEspecially if they know martial arts too. It’s like, “Oh no.”尤其是如果对方也会武术的话。就是那种，"哦不。"
Joe RoganYes. But in the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) , when Royce Gracie, off of his back, was strangling Dan Severn with his legs. You’re like, “Holy shit, this guy’s being pinned by this big giant wrestler, and he wraps his legs around his neck and chokes him to the point that guy has to surrender.” Amazing.是的。但在 UFC（Ultimate Fighting Championship）里，当 Royce Gracie 仰面朝上，用双腿勒住 Dan Severn 的时候，你就会想，"这他妈太厉害了，这家伙被这个大块头摔跤手压住，然后他把腿绕上去套住他的脖子，把他勒到那家伙不得不认输。"太惊人了。
Elon MuskYeah, it was amazing. I mean, Royce got beaten up pretty bad in some of those.是的，太惊人了。我是说，Royce 在其中的一些比赛里也被打得挺惨的。
Joe RoganWell, he definitely had some rough fights.嗯，他确实打过几场很艰难的比赛。
Elon MuskBut he won.但他赢了。
Joe RoganHe won. Yeah. He’s a legend. But what it showed – I mean I’m a huge lover of Jujitsu – what it showed is that there is a method for diffusing these situations with technique and knowledge. And I think it’s also a great way to exercise too because it’s almost like the exercise is secondary to the learning of the thing. The exercise is like you want to develop strength and conditioning just so that you could be better at doing the thing. And the analogy that I use is, imagine if you had a race car and you could actually give the race car better handling and more horsepower just from your own focus and effort. That’s really what it’s like.他赢了。对。他是个传奇。但这说明了——我是柔术的超级爱好者——这说明确实存在一套方法，能用技术和知识来化解这类局面。而且我觉得这也是极好的锻炼方式，因为锻炼几乎是副产品，真正的核心是学习这门技艺本身。力量和体能训练只是手段，目的是让你在这件事上做得更好。我打的比方是：想象你有一辆赛车，只要你自己专注投入，就能给这辆车提升操控性和马力——柔术就是这种感觉。
Elon MuskYeah, totally. My kids… I should say, I sent my kids to Jujitsu since they were like, I don’t know, six.对，完全同意。我的孩子们……说实话，我从他们大概六岁起就送他们去学柔术了。
Joe RoganOh, really? That’s awesome. It’s a great thing to learn. It really is.哦，真的吗？太棒了。这是很值得学的东西，真的是。
Elon MuskYes, seems like a good thing.是的，感觉是个好东西。
Joe RoganYeah. Maybe something like… mean, even if you just have someone who holds the pads for you, you could get a workout in, and it’d be fun.对。或者比如……就算只是有人帮你托靶，你也能练出一身汗，而且很有意思。
Elon MuskSure.当然。
Joe RoganWhen am I going to be able to buy one of them Roadsters? When’s that happening?我什么时候能买到那款 Roadster？什么时候能出来？
Elon MuskWell, I can’t say exactly when, but we got to get it… This Covid thing’s kind of thrown us for a loop.嗯，我没法说确切时间，但我们得先……这次 Covid 把我们搞得有点乱。
Joe RoganI’m sure.可以理解。
Elon MuskSo, not to blame everything on Covid, but it’s certainly set us back on progress for some number of months. But I mean, things we are going to get done ahead of Roadster are, ramping up Model Y production; that’ll be a great car; it is a great car. Getting the Berlin Giga-factory built, and also building Y. Getting expanding the Shanghai factory, which is going great and get this Cybertruck, Semi truck, Roadster,… – Roadster is kind of like dessert. We gotta get the meat and potatoes and greens and stuff.不是要把所有事都怪到 Covid 头上，但它确实让我们的进度延后了好几个月。不过 Roadster 之前我们还有几件事要先做好：一是提升 Model Y 的产能，那会是一款很棒的车，现在已经很棒了；二是建好柏林超级工厂，同时在那里生产 Y；三是扩建上海工厂，进展很顺利；还有 Cybertruck、Semi 卡车、Roadster——Roadster 有点像甜点，我们得先把主食、配菜这些都上齐。
Joe RoganBut Roadster comes before Cybertruck?但 Roadster 比 Cybertruck 先出？
Elon MuskI mean, I think we should do Cybertruck first, before Roadster.我的意思是，我觉得应该先做 Cybertruck，然后再做 Roadster。
Joe RoganInteresting. I’m not mad at that.有意思。我不反对。
Elon MuskSome of the things for Roadster, the tri-motor, plaid powertrain, we’re going to have that in Model S. So that’s like part one of the ingredients that’s needed for Roadster, is the plaid powertrain, the more advanced battery pack. That kind of thing.Roadster 所需要的一些东西，比如三电机的 plaid 动力总成，我们会先放到 Model S 上。所以这算是 Roadster 所需配方的第一步——plaid 动力总成，更先进的电池组，诸如此类。
Joe RoganI wanted to ask you about this before I forgot. There’s a company that’s called Apex; it’s taking your Teslas, and they’re giving it a wider base and wider tires and a little bit more advanced suspension. How do you feel about that?我一直想在忘之前问你这个问题。有家公司叫 Apex，他们拿你们的 Tesla 改装，加宽车身底盘，换更宽的轮胎，还升级了悬挂。你对这个怎么看？
Elon MuskSounds good to me, sure.听起来挺好啊，没问题。
Joe RoganDo you work with them? Are you cool with those people?你们有跟他们合作吗？你跟那帮人关系怎么样？
Elon MuskYeah, I mean, go ahead.嗯，随他们搞去吧。
Joe RoganThey’re jazzing stuff up with carbon fiber and doing a bunch of interior choices. You’re cool with… You can’t fuck with that. You don’t have time. So is it good that someone comes along and has that sort of specialty operation?他们在做碳纤维升级，还提供一堆内饰选项。你没意见……你也没精力管这事。那有人出来做这种专项业务，对你来说是好事吗？
Elon MuskYeah. I’ve got no problem.对，我没意见。
Joe RoganThat’s what it’s called, right? It’s like… Jamie, is it called Apex?那个牌子叫什么来着？好像是…… Jamie，是叫 Apex 吗？
JamieYeah. I got an Unplugged Performance S-APEX .对。我有一辆 Unplugged Performance S-APEX。
Joe RoganThat’s right. Unplugged Performance. Yeah.对了，是 Unplugged Performance。没错。
Elon MuskYeah. You could, for sure, lighten the car up and improve tire traction and…对。你确实可以给车减重，提升轮胎抓地力，还有……
Joe RoganHave you seen that company’s stuff? What they do?你看过他们的东西吗？他们做什么的？
Elon MuskI don’t know specifically, but there’s…具体我不太了解，但有……
Joe RoganIt’s pretty dope. They make it pretty dope-looking… They take Model S, and they widen it and give it a bunch of carbon fiber. That’s it, right there.挺酷的。他们做得很有范儿……他们拿 Model S 改，加宽车身，全身包碳纤维。就是那个，你看。
Elon MuskCool.不错。
Joe RoganOoh-la-la, look at that.哦哦哦，看看这个。
Elon MuskThat looks pretty nice.看起来挺好看的。
Joe RoganYeah, it does. Now, the plaid version of the Model S, are you going to widen the track and do a bunch of different…? I know you guys are testing at the Nürburgring. Can you not talk about that?是吧。那么 Model S 的 plaid 版本，你们打算加宽轮距，做一系列不同的……？我知道你们在 Nürburgring 测试过。这个不方便说？
Elon MuskWell, I think we’ve got to leave that for a proper sort of product unveil.嗯，我觉得这得留到正式的产品发布会上再说。
Joe RoganI understand. Last time you were here, you convince me to buy a Tesla. I bought it, and it’s fucking insane.我懂。你上次来的时候说服了我买 Tesla。我买了，真的太他妈厉害了。
Elon MuskOh great. Glad you like it.太好了，很高兴你喜欢。
Joe RoganAw, man.老天。
Elon MuskPretty fun.挺好玩的吧。
Joe RoganI don’t… It’s not just pretty fun. The way I’ve described it is, it makes other cars seem stupid. They just seem dumb. And I love dumb things. I love dumb cars. Like I love campfires. I love campfires. I have a 1993 Porsche that’s air-cooled. It’s not that fast. It’s really slow compared to the Tesla, really.不只是好玩。我的描述是，它让其他车都显得很蠢。就是那种感觉。我也爱那些"蠢"东西，我爱那些"蠢"车，就像我爱篝火一样。我有一辆 1993 年的保时捷，风冷发动机。不是很快，跟 Tesla 比真的很慢，真的。
Elon MuskYeah, actually, it’s really quite slow. But, okay, sure.对，说真的，那车确实挺慢的。不过，好吧，没错。
Joe RoganBut there’s something engaging about the mechanical, just like the gears and, it’s very analog. But it’s so stupid in comparison to the Tesla. Like when I want to go somewhere in the Model S, I hit the gas, and it just goes, whee. It’s like, it violates time.但那种机械感有一种吸引力，那些齿轮啊，很模拟。不过跟 Tesla 比起来真的太原始了。就像我开 Model S 想去哪里，踩油门，它就"唰"地一下，感觉违反了时间法则。
Elon MuskYou’ve tried it like Ludicrous Plus and stuff like that?你试过 Ludicrous Plus 之类的模式了？
Joe RoganOh yeah.哦，试过了。
Elon MuskWe just did a software update where it’ll do, like a cheetah stance. So yeah. So, because it’s got a dynamic air suspension so it lowers the back.我们刚做了一次软件更新，加了一个猎豹蹲姿（cheetah stance）功能。因为它有动态空气悬挂，会把车尾降低。
Joe RoganOh Jesus.我的天。
Elon MuskJust like a sprinter, basically. Like what do you do if you’re a sprinter, you hunker down and then shoo. So I shaved like a 10th of a second off the 0 to 60. I mean, it’s pretty fun.就像短跑运动员一样。短跑起跑时你会蹲低然后蹿出去。这样我把 0 到 60 英里每小时的时间缩短了大概 0.1 秒。还挺好玩的。
Joe RoganIt’s so… I’ve taken so many people… – I take them for the holy shit moment. I’m like, “You ready?” like “Hang on there.” and then I stomp on the gas…这太……我带了好多人……——我专门让他们体验那个"我操"的瞬间。我说："准备好了吗？"，"抓紧了。"然后一脚踩到底……
Elon MuskAnd they’ve never felt anything like it.他们从来没感受过那种感觉。
Joe RoganIt’s confusing. It really is. The instant torque and just the sheer acceleration is baffling.真的很震撼。那种瞬时扭矩和纯粹的加速度，让人困惑，真的。
Elon MuskThey’ve never felt it. It’s faster than falling.他们从来没有过这种感受。比自由落体还快。
Joe RoganIt’s crazy. It’s so fast. It’s a roller coaster. And my family yells at me when I stomp the gas. Like I tell my kids, I’m like, “You want to feel it? You want to feel it?” they’re like, “Do it, do it, do it.” my wife’s like, “Don’t do it.” Boom. And even if I just do it on the highway for a couple of seconds, it’s very exciting.太疯了。太快了。就像坐过山车。我一踩油门全家都对我发火。我问我孩子，"要不要感受一下？要不要？"他们说"来来来！"我老婆说"不准。"然后砰。就算在高速上只踩几秒钟，也超级刺激。
Elon MuskYeah, pretty fun.是啊，挺好玩的。
Joe RoganIt’s very fun.非常好玩。
Elon MuskYeah. It’s like having your own roller coaster on tap.就像随时都有一座私人过山车一样。
Joe RoganIt really is like a roller coaster on tap. Without the loop-de-loops. But, the pinning to your seat, it seems like you’re not supposed to be able to experience that from some sort of a consumer vehicle that a regular person could buy if you have the money. It seems too crazy. And then the idea that this Roadster is a half of a second faster than that? That’s madness.真的就是随时待命的过山车。就是没有翻转环。但那种把人死死压在座椅上的感觉——好像一辆普通消费者买得起的民用车，不应该能给你这种体验。感觉太不现实了。然后 Roadster 比这还要再快半秒？那真是疯了。
Elon MuskWell, with a Roadster, we’re going to do some things that are kind of unfair. So we’re going to take some things from Cadillac rocket world and put them on a car, so.嗯，Roadster 我们打算做一些有点不讲武德的事情。我们要把一些火箭领域的东西搬到车上来。
Joe RoganOh, I’ve read about that. Explain that. Like what do you?我看过相关报道。你展开说说？比如你打算怎么做？
Elon MuskWell, like I said, we can’t do the product unveil right here. But, it’s going to do some things that are unfair. When we do the unveil of the Roadster, let me just say that anyone who’s been waiting, they won’t be sorry. They won’t be sorry.就像我说的，我没法在这里做产品发布会。但它会做一些不讲武德的事情。等我们正式发布 Roadster 的时候，我只想说，所有一直在等的人，一定不会后悔。真的不会后悔。
Joe RoganOh, but sure, well, anything that goes 0 to 60, what is it 1.9? Is that the 0 to 60?哦，但肯定啊，任何 0 到 60 能跑 1.9 秒的车……1.9 是 0 到 60 的时间吧？
Elon MuskThat’s the base model.那是基础版的。
Joe RoganWhat’s the top of the food chain model? Okay. Faster than that. Let’s just say faster than that.那顶配版呢？好吧，比那还快？就说比那还快就行了。
Elon MuskFaster than that, yeah.比那还快，对。
Joe RoganThat seems so crazy to me. Now, what was it like when the dude threw the steel balls at the window, and they were supposed to not break, and it broke? I know, extenuating circumstances.这感觉太疯了。对了，当时那个人往窗户上扔钢球，本来是不应该碎的，结果碎了，那是什么感受？我知道有特殊情况。
Elon MuskWell, yeah. I mean, at least you know that our demos are authentic because I was not expecting that, and then I think I muttered, under my breath, like, “Holy shit.”嗯，是的。至少这证明我们的演示是真实的，因为我完全没料到那会发生，我想我当时在台上小声嘟囔了一句"我操"。
Joe RoganYeah. You didn’t get mad, though. You didn’t Steve jobs it.但你没发火，没有 Steve Jobs 那套。
Elon MuskNo, I definitely swore; I didn’t think the micro pick it up, but it did. But, so like we practiced this, behind the scenes… – At Tesla, we don’t do like tons of practice for our demos because we’re working on the cars. We’re building new technologies and improving the fundamental product. So we’re not spending like doing hundreds of practice things or anything like that. We don’t have time for that. But, just hours before the demo, both Franz, Head of Design, and I were in the studio throwing steel balls at the window, and it’s bouncing right off. And like, “Okay, this seems pretty good. It seems like we got it.” Okay?没有，我确实骂了一句；我以为麦克风没收到，结果收到了。但是，在那之前，幕后……——在 Tesla，我们不会对演示做大量练习，因为我们忙着做车，在建造新技术、改进核心产品。所以我们不会花时间反复排练几百遍，完全没那个时间。但就在演示前几个小时，Franz（设计总监）和我在工作室里往窗玻璃上扔钢球，球直接弹回来。我们觉得，"好，这看起来挺稳的，我们搞定了。"对吧？
Elon MuskAnd then, we think what happened was, when Franz hit the door with the sledgehammer to show, this is an exoskeleton, high strength, hardened steel… – You can literally wind up with a sledgehammer, full-on double-handed sledgehammer and hit the door and there’s not even a dent. It’s cool. But we think that cracked the corner of the glass at the bottom, and then, once you crack the corner of the glass, it’s game over. So then, when you threw the ball, that’s what cracked the glass. It didn’t go through, though.然后，我们认为发生的事情是：Franz 用大锤砸车门演示——这是一款外骨骼结构、高强度硬化钢的车——你真的可以双手抡起大锤全力砸门，连个凹痕都没有，很厉害。但我们觉得那一锤把玻璃底角给震裂了，而一旦角上有了裂缝，就完了。之后扔钢球，裂缝就扩开了。不过球没打穿。
Joe RoganIt didn’t go through. That’s true. It didn’t shatter the whole thing, like a regular window would either, which would just dissolve. Right? So in hindsight, the ball should have been first, sledgehammer second.没打穿。确实。也没有整块碎掉，不像普通玻璃一砸就散了。所以事后来看，应该先扔球，再砸锤。
Elon MuskYeah.对。
Joe RoganYou live, you learn.吃一堑长一智。
Elon MuskYeah, exactly.对，没错。
Joe RoganListen, man, we’ve taken up a lot of your time. You had a child recently.老兄，我们占用你不少时间了。你最近刚有了孩子。
Elon MuskYeah, I got to get back to it.对，我得赶回去了。
Joe RoganIt’s amazing that you had the time to come down here. And I really appreciate that. I appreciate everything you do, man. I’m glad you’re out there. And I really appreciate you coming down here and sharing your perspective.你能抽时间来这里真的很了不起。我真的很感激。感谢你所做的一切，老兄。很高兴你在那里。真的很感谢你来这里分享你的看法。
Elon MuskWell, I think you’ve got a great show. Thanks for having me on.嗯，我觉得你的节目很棒。谢谢你邀请我。
Joe RoganThank you. My pleasure.谢谢。荣幸之至。
Elon MuskAll right.好的。
Joe RoganElon Musk, ladies and gentlemen. Good night.Elon Musk，女士们先生们。晚安。