Heat. Heat.热。好热。
Nikhil KamathOur audience is largely wannabe entrepreneurs in India. And I feel like all of us have so much to learn from you because you've done it so many times over in so many different domains.我们的观众大多是印度有志于创业的人。我觉得我们都能从你身上学到很多，因为你在这么多不同领域一次又一次地做成了事情。
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Nikhil KamathSo we will speak to them today and I will try and center all my questions in that direction so they can take advantage of this conversation and maybe take a chance and build something.所以今天我们就代表他们来聊，我会尽量把所有问题都围绕这个方向展开，让他们能从这次对话中受益，也许鼓起勇气去闯一把、去做点什么。
Nikhil KamathYou want a coffee?要来杯咖啡吗？
Elon MuskSure. Why not?好啊，为什么不呢？
Elon MuskOkay. Are we going to be talking for a while?好的。我们要聊很长时间吗？
Nikhil KamathI hope we are.我希望是的。
Elon MuskOkay. Good. Sure.好，没问题。
Nikhil KamathMay I trouble you for a coffee? Can we get another coffee? Anything? Cappuccino, I guess. All right.能麻烦你帮我来杯咖啡吗？能再来一杯咖啡吗？什么都行？卡布奇诺吧，我猜。好的。
Nikhil KamathAre you a coffee drinker, Elon?你喝咖啡吗，Elon？
Elon MuskOh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I coffee once usually in the mornings, you know.哦，喝，当然喝。我一般早上喝一杯，你知道的。
Nikhil KamathOne a day kind of thing.就是每天一杯那种。
Elon MuskYeah, pretty much.对，差不多就是这样。
Nikhil KamathYou want to wait for it?要等咖啡来了再开始吗？
Elon MuskNo, I'm good.不用，我可以的。
Nikhil KamathThe first thing I must say is you're a lot bigger and bulkier, muscular, than I would have thought you are.第一件事我必须说，你比我想象的要高大很多，肌肉也很发达。
Elon MuskOh, stop. You must make me blush.哦，别这样说，你要让我脸红的。
Nikhil KamathReally? Seriously?真的？认真的？
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, look on the internet. I'm small, you know.是啊。你看网上，我显得很瘦小，你知道的。
Nikhil KamathEssentially, what percentage of internet is spent on Twitter? Is there a number to it on X?大概来说，互联网上有多少百分比是花在 Twitter 上的？X 上有没有具体数字？
Elon MuskWell, so we have like about 600 million monthly users. Well, although it can spike up if there's some major event in the world, it can get up to, I don't know, 800 million or a billion if there's some major event in the world. So there's, I don't know, 250, 300 million per week type of thing. It's a pretty decent number. It tends to be readers, you know, people that read words.嗯，我们大约有 6 亿月活用户。不过如果世界上发生了什么重大事件，数字可以飙升到，我也不知道，8 亿甚至 10 亿。平时大概是每周 2.5 亿到 3 亿这个量级，相当可观的数字了。用户主要是阅读者，就是喜欢读文字的那种人。
Nikhil KamathDo you think that'll change?你觉得这种情况会改变吗？
Elon MuskYeah, I mean there's certainly a lot of video on the X systems, but at this point increasing amounts of video. But I think where the X network is strongest is among people who think a lot and read a lot, you know. So that's where it's going to be strongest because we have words. And so among readers, writers, and thinkers, I think X is number one in the world as far as social media goes.是的，X 上当然有大量视频，而且视频的比例在不断增加。但我认为 X 网络最强的地方，还是在那些思考很多、阅读很多的人群当中。因为我们有文字，所以在读者、写作者和思考者里，我认为 X 在全球社交媒体中是第一位的。
Nikhil KamathThe form factor, if you had to wager a guess for tomorrow, how much is text, how much is video? I've heard you speak about maybe voice and hearing being the next form of communication with AI. What happens to X in its true form? How does it evolve?如果你要打个赌，预测未来的形态，文字和视频各占多少比例？我听你提到过，语音和听觉可能是下一代与 AI 交互的方式。X 最本质的形态是什么？它会怎么演变？
Elon MuskYeah. So I do think most interaction is going to be video in the future. Most interaction is going to be real-time video with AI. So real-time video comprehension, real-time video generation. That's going to be most of the load. And that's how it is for most of the internet right now. Most of the internet is video. Text is a pretty small percentage, but the text tends to be higher value generally, or it's more densely compressed information. But if you say like what is the most amount of bits generated and compute spent, it's certainly going to be video.是的。我确实认为未来大多数交互都会是视频形式，大多数交互会是与 AI 的实时视频交互。所以是实时视频理解、实时视频生成——这将是流量的大头。现在的互联网也是如此，大部分流量是视频。文字只占很小的百分比，但文字往往价值更高，或者说信息密度更高。但如果你说生成的比特量和消耗的算力，那肯定是视频占主导。
Nikhil KamathSo I used to be a shareholder of X, a very small one, and I got paid when you bought it, when you bought Twitter and you made it U. Happy decision. Glad you did it.所以，我之前是 X 的股东，持股非常少，你收购 Twitter 改名为 X 的时候，我套现离场了。高兴的决定。很庆幸你做了这件事。
Elon MuskYeah. Yeah. I think it was important. You know, I felt like Twitter was heading in, or had gone in, a direction that had sort of more of a negative influence on the world. You know, of course, this depends on one's perspective. Some people will say, well, actually, they liked the way it was and now they don't like it. But I think the fundamental thing was that Twitter was amplifying, I would say, a fairly pretty far left by most people's standards in the world's ideology, because of where it was based in San Francisco. And they actually suspended a lot of people on the right. So from their perspective even someone in the center would be far right. If you're far left, anyone in the center is far right, because on the political spectrum they're just as far left as you get in the United States and in San Francisco.是的。我觉得这件事很重要。我感觉 Twitter 走上了——或者说已经走向了一条对世界有某种负面影响的方向。当然，这取决于每个人的立场。有些人会说，他们喜欢原来的 Twitter，现在不喜欢了。但我认为根本问题在于，Twitter 在放大一种——以世界上大多数人的标准来看——相当极端的左翼意识形态，因为它总部在旧金山。他们实际上封禁了很多右翼人士。所以从他们的视角来看，哪怕是中间派人士都会被视为极右翼，因为如果你站在极左的位置，中间派在政治光谱上对你来说就是极右，这就是他们在美国、在旧金山的极端程度。
Elon MuskSo what I've tried to do is just restore it to be balanced and centrist. So there haven't been any left-wing voices that have been suspended or, you know, banned or deamplified or anything like that. Now some of them have chosen to just go somewhere else. But at this point the operating principle of the X system is to adhere to any country's laws but not to put our thumb on the scale beyond the laws of a country.所以我一直在努力做的，是让它回归平衡和中立。我们没有封禁、屏蔽或降流任何左翼声音。有些人选择去了别的平台，但 X 现在的运营原则是遵守各国法律，不在法律之外的事情上偏向任何一方。
Nikhil KamathWhen I think of social media, Elon, I feel like even data suggests that the current incumbents seem to be losing traction amongst the youngest of audience. Even platforms like Instagram, I mean, they're not exactly like Twitter, but platforms across the board. If one had to rework social media and build something bottom up, what do you think could work for the world of tomorrow?Elon，我在想社交媒体这件事，数据似乎也表明，现有的头部平台在最年轻的用户群中正在失去吸引力。就连 Instagram 这样的平台——它和 Twitter 不完全一样，但各类平台普遍如此。如果有人要从零开始重新设计社交媒体，你认为什么样的东西对未来的世界有效？
Elon MuskWell, I mean, I don't think that much about social media, to be frank. I mostly just want to have something where there's, in the case of X, kind of a global town square where people can say what they want to say with words, pictures, video, where there's a secure messaging system. We've recently added the ability to do audio and video calls. So you're really trying to bring the world together into a collective consciousness.嗯，说实话，我没有太多时间去思考社交媒体本身。我主要是想做一个地方，就 X 而言，打造一种全球性的城市广场，让人们可以用文字、图片、视频说出自己想说的话，有安全的消息系统，我们最近还加了音频和视频通话功能。所以本质上是想把全世界连接成某种集体意识。
Elon MuskThat's, I guess, different from just saying like what is the most dopamine-generating video stream that one could make? Which, you know, can be a little bit of brain rot, frankly. If you're just watching videos that just cause dopamine hits one after another but lack substance, then I think those are not great, that's not a great way to spend time. But I do think that's actually what a lot of people are going to want to watch. So if you say like total internet usage, it's going to probably be optimizing for, you know, neurotransmitter generation, like there's somebody getting like a kick out of it. But it becomes like a drug type of thing.这和单纯问"怎么做才能让人的多巴胺分泌最大化"是不同的。那种东西，坦白说，会有点让人脑子进水。如果你只是不断刷那些一个接一个触发多巴胺的视频，却没有实质内容，我觉得那不是打发时间的好方式。但我也承认，确实有很多人就是想看这种东西。所以如果你说总体互联网使用量，它很可能会朝着优化神经递质分泌的方向走，就像让人获得某种刺激。但这就变成毒品那种东西了。
Elon MuskBut I'm not really after that. My goal is not to do that. I guess I could do that if I wanted to, but I just want to really have a global platform that brings together, like I said, as close to sort of a collective consciousness of humanity as possible. And one of the things that we've introduced, for example, is automatic translation. Because I think it would be great to bring together what people say in many different languages, but automatically translated for the recipient. So you have the collective consciousness not just of, say, people in a particular language group, but you have the thoughts of people in every language group.但我不是追求这个。我的目标不是做这种东西。我想如果我想做也可以做到，但我真正想做的是打造一个全球平台，像我说的，尽可能地汇聚人类的集体意识。比如我们推出的一个功能是自动翻译，因为我觉得把不同语言的人说的话汇集在一起，然后自动为接收者翻译，这很了不起。这样你得到的集体意识，就不只是某一个语言群体的思想，而是每一种语言群体的思想。
Nikhil KamathAnd why is that important, collective consciousness, to have one platform?为什么集体意识很重要？为什么要有一个平台来承载它？
Elon MuskI guess, yeah, why is that important? You could also say like, you know, if you consider humans, humans are composed of around 30 to 40 trillion cells, and there's trillions of synapses in your mind. But there's no the why a bit. I mean, I guess it's just so we can increase our understanding of the universe.嗯，为什么这很重要？你也可以这么想：人类由大约 30 到 40 万亿个细胞组成，大脑里有数以万亿计的突触。但这里有个"为什么"的问题。我想说，归根结底，是为了增进我们对宇宙的理解。
Elon MuskI had this sort of question about what's the meaning of life, you know, like why is anything important? Why are we here? What's the origin of the universe? What is the end? What are the questions that we don't even know to ask? And probably the questions we don't even know to ask are the most important ones. So I'm just trying to, I guess, understand what's going on. What is going on in this reality? Is this reality?我曾经有这样一个问题：生命的意义是什么？为什么任何事情都是重要的？我们为什么在这里？宇宙的起源是什么？终点是什么？那些我们甚至不知道该如何提问的问题是什么？这些我们甚至不知道该问的问题，很可能才是最重要的。所以我只是想搞清楚到底是怎么回事。这个现实是什么？这是现实吗？
Nikhil KamathAnd where did you get when you asked what is the point of life?那你问完"生命的意义是什么"之后，你得出什么结论了？
Elon MuskYeah. So I came to the conclusion that, which is somewhat in the Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy school of thought, which is...是的。我得出的结论与 Douglas Adams 的《银河系漫游指南》的思路有些相近，就是……
Nikhil KamathWhat did he do?他在书里说了什么？
Elon MuskYeah, he, you know, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is like a book on philosophy disguised as humor. And that's where, you know, Earth turns out to be this computer to figure out the answer of the meaning of life, and it comes up with the answer 42. But then it's like, what the heck does 42 mean? And it turns out, well, actually the hard part is the question, not the answer. And for that, you need a much bigger computer than Earth. So basically what Douglas Adams was saying is that we actually don't know how to frame the questions properly. And so I think by expanding the scope and scale of consciousness, we can better understand what questions to ask about the answer that is the universe.《银河系漫游指南》就像一本伪装成幽默故事的哲学书。书里，地球原来是一台电脑，用来计算生命意义的答案，最后给出的答案是 42。但问题来了，42 到底是什么意思？后来发现，难的不是答案，而是问题本身。要提出正确的问题，需要一台比地球更大的计算机。所以 Douglas Adams 本质上是在说，我们其实不知道如何正确地提出问题。因此我认为，通过扩展意识的范围与规模，我们才能更好地理解，对于"宇宙"这个答案，我们该提出什么样的问题。
Nikhil KamathDo you believe the collective consciousness of society? You know, I was watching this movie recently called Gladiator, Russell Crowe. Have you seen it?你相信社会的集体意识吗？我最近在看一部电影《角斗士》，Russell Crowe 主演的。你看过吗？
Elon MuskYeah.看过。
Nikhil KamathIn Gladiator, in Rome, when people are fighting, and the crowd is cheering when people kill each other, the collective is very much like the mob. It doesn't have nuance in its opinion per se.在《角斗士》里，在罗马，人们在战斗，而人群在为互相杀戮欢呼，那个集体本质上就像一群乌合之众，观点里没什么细腻的东西。
Elon MuskWell, that's a particular kind of mob. I mean, the sort of going there to see people kill each other, you know.嗯，那是一种特殊的乌合之众。我是说，那是去看人互相残杀的那种……
Nikhil KamathDo you suspect the society we live in today is very different?你觉得我们今天生活的社会有本质的不同吗？
Elon MuskWell, we don't generally, at this point we don't, you know, go watch people kill each other. Maybe some kind of euphemism of that, sports, I suppose. So people do sports where teams attempt to defeat each other but minus the death.嗯，总体上，我们现在不会专门去看人互相杀戮了。也许体育是一种隐喻，人们看体育，两支队伍你死我活地竞争，但没有真正的死亡。
Elon MuskJust going back to the consideration of a human, we all started out as one cell but now we are over 30 trillion cells. And I think most people feel like they're one body. Like, you know, usually your right hand's not fighting your left hand type of thing, you know, they sort of cooperate. Your mind is, you know, just a vast number of neurons, but most of the time it doesn't feel like there's, you know, a trillion voices in your brain. Hopefully not.回到人类自身来想，我们都是从一个细胞开始，现在却有超过 30 万亿个细胞。我想大多数人感觉自己是一个整体，你的右手不会和左手打架，它们会合作。你的大脑里有无数个神经元，但大多数时候你不会感觉脑子里有万亿个声音——希望不会是那样。
Elon MuskSo there's clearly more that happens when you have trillions of cells working as a cellular collective than say one cell or a small multicellular creature. There's clearly something different that happens. Like you can't talk to a bacteria, you know. They just sort of wiggle around, and from their perspective, I don't know, what is life like from the perspective of an amoeba, you know. But you can't talk to an amoeba, they don't talk. But you can talk to humans. So there's just something obviously qualitatively, fundamentally different for humans once you have a large number of cells and a sufficiently large brain type of thing. You can now talk to humans, and they can say things, they can produce things. But bacteria are not going to produce a spaceship, for example. But humans can.所以很显然，当数万亿个细胞作为一个细胞集体协同运作时，产生的东西远远超越单个细胞或小型多细胞生物。显然有些东西是根本不同的。你没法和细菌对话，它们只是四处乱动，从它们的视角来看，我也不知道，做一个变形虫是什么感觉——但你没法和变形虫交谈，它们不会说话。但你可以和人类对话。所以一旦细胞数量足够多、大脑足够大，人类就显然在性质上是截然不同的。你可以和人类交谈，他们能说话，能创造东西。细菌不会造出宇宙飞船，但人类可以。
Elon MuskSo I think there's something qualitatively different that also happens when there's a collection of humans. In fact, it's safe to say that a single human cannot make a spaceship. I could not make a spaceship by myself. But with a collection of humans we can make spaceships. So there's something obviously qualitatively different about a collection of humans. In fact, it would be impossible for me to learn all of the areas of expertise. There wouldn't be enough time in one lifetime to even learn all the things before I was dead. So you really fundamentally have to have a collection of humans to make a rocket.所以我认为，当人类聚集在一起时，也会发生某种性质上的飞跃。事实上，可以肯定地说，一个人类个体无法造出宇宙飞船——我一个人绝对造不了飞船。但一群人类可以造出飞船。所以人类的集体显然在性质上有根本的不同。事实上，一个人根本不可能掌握所有领域的专业知识，在一生的时间里学完所有东西都不够，在死之前就已经不可能了。所以造一枚火箭，根本上就必须有一群人。
Elon MuskThen I think there's probably some other qualitative scaling things that happen when you have groups of humans, and then if the quality of the interaction or the quality of the information flow, the better it is, the more the human collective will achieve. And, like I said, I'm just curious about the nature of the universe, and I think it's safe to say that if we increase the scope and scale of consciousness, we're much more likely to understand the nature of the universe than if we reduce it.我认为当你有了一群人类，还可能会发生其他性质上的规模效应。交互质量越高、信息流通质量越好，人类集体就能实现更多。就像我说的，我只是对宇宙的本质感到好奇，我认为可以肯定地说，如果我们扩展意识的范围与规模，我们理解宇宙本质的可能性就会大得多，而不是缩减意识。
Nikhil KamathIs that a bit like spirituality? A lot of people talk to me about spirituality, right? I still don't know what it actually means. Like I keep asking them, what do you mean? What do you mean?这有点像灵性吗？很多人跟我谈灵性，我到现在也不太清楚它到底是什么意思。我一直问他们，你是指什么？你是指什么？
Elon MuskYeah, I mean a lot of people have spiritual feelings, right? And I wouldn't try to deny that those spiritual feelings are real to them. But it doesn't entirely translate. Just because somebody else has a spiritual feeling doesn't mean that I would have that spiritual feeling. So, you know, I tend to be kind of physics-pulled, which is like, if something has predictive value, then I'll pay more attention to it than if it doesn't have predictive value, right? You know, physics, I would say, is the study of that which has predictive value. I think that's a pretty good definition.是的，很多人有灵性感受，对吧？我不想否认这些灵性感受对他们来说是真实的。但它不完全能传递给别人。别人有灵性感受，不代表我也会有那种感受。所以，我倾向于从物理学的角度来思考，就是如果某样东西有预测价值，我就会更关注它，否则不会，对吧？物理学，我认为，就是研究那些有预测价值的东西的学科——我觉得这个定义挺准确的。
Nikhil KamathMy primary job, Elon, is a stock broker and stock investor. There is no predictive value. Nobody knows what will happen tomorrow.Elon，我的主业是股票经纪和股票投资。这行没有预测价值。没有人知道明天会发生什么。
Elon MuskWell, but I think you can generally say, you know, if it's long-term for a company, then you can say, well, do you like the products or services of that company? And do you like the product roadmap? Like it seems like they make great products and they're likely to make great products in the future. If that's the case, then I would say that's probably a good company to invest in. And I think you also want to believe in the team. So if you think, well, that's a talented and hardworking team, they make good products today, they seem to be still motivated to make things in the future, then I'd say that's a good company to invest in.嗯，但我认为总体上来说，如果是长期投资，你可以问自己：你喜欢这家公司的产品或服务吗？你喜欢他们的产品路线图吗？他们现在做出很棒的产品，未来很可能也会继续做。如果是这样，那我会说这很可能是值得投资的公司。你还需要相信这支团队——如果你觉得这是一支有才华、努力工作的团队，现在做出好产品，未来似乎仍有动力继续做，那我就说这是值得投资的公司。
Nikhil KamathFair point.说得对。
Elon MuskYeah. And that won't solve for the daily fluctuations, which happen and sometimes are pretty extreme. But over time that is the right way to invest in stocks, because a company is just a group of people assembled to create products and services. So you have to say, how good are those products and services? Are they likely to continue to improve in the future? If so, then you should buy the stock of that company, and then don't worry too much about the daily fluctuations.是的。这无法解决日常的波动问题，波动确实存在，有时候相当剧烈。但从长期来看，这是投资股票的正确方式。因为公司本质上就是一群人聚在一起创造产品和服务。所以你要问：这些产品和服务有多好？未来还会持续改善吗？如果是的话，那就买这家公司的股票，不要太纠结于日常波动。
Nikhil KamathWhat's got you most excited now, Elon, in terms of all that you're building? You're doing so much. So let me just preface and contextualize who is watching this. Our audience is largely wannabe entrepreneurs in India, really ambitious, really hungry, want to take the risk and build something, and I feel like all of us have so much to learn from you because you've done it so many times over in so many different domains. So we will speak to them today and I will try and center all my questions in that direction so they can take advantage of this conversation and maybe take a chance and build something.Elon，现在你正在做的所有事情里，什么让你最兴奋？你在做的东西太多了。让我先介绍一下背景：我们的观众主要是印度有志于创业的人，非常有抱负、非常饥渴，想要冒险去做点什么。我觉得我们都能从你身上学到很多，因为你在这么多不同领域一次又一次地做成了事情。所以今天我们代表他们来聊，我会尽量把问题都往那个方向引，让他们能从这次对话中受益，也许鼓起勇气去做点什么。
Elon MuskOkay. Sure. Yeah, I guess the most important thing to do is just make useful products and services.好的，当然。我想最重要的事情就是做出有用的产品和服务。
Nikhil KamathWhich one of all the products and services that you're building has got you most excited today?在你正在打造的所有产品和服务中，哪一个现在让你最兴奋？
Elon MuskWell, I think that there's increasingly a convergence actually between SpaceX and Tesla and xAI, in that if the future is solar-powered AI satellites, which it pretty much needs to be in order to harness a non-trivial amount of the energy of the sun, you have to move to solar-powered AI satellites in deep space, which somewhat is a confluence of Tesla expertise and SpaceX expertise, and xAI on the AI front. So it does feel like over time there's somewhat of a convergence there. But all the companies are doing great things. Very proud of the teams. They do great work.嗯，我认为 SpaceX、Tesla 和 xAI 之间实际上有越来越多的融合。因为如果未来是太阳能驱动的 AI 卫星——而这几乎是必然的，要想利用太阳能量的很大一部分，就必须走向深空的太阳能 AI 卫星——这在某种程度上汇聚了 Tesla 的技术专长和 SpaceX 的技术专长，以及 xAI 在 AI 方面的积累。所以感觉随着时间推移，这些领域有某种程度的融合。但每家公司都在做了不起的事情，我为这些团队感到非常自豪，他们做得很棒。
Elon MuskSo, you know, we're making great progress with Tesla on the autonomous driving. I don't know if you've tried the self-driving. Have you tried it?在 Tesla 的自动驾驶方面，我们取得了很大进展。你有没有试过自动驾驶？
Nikhil KamathI've tried it in the Waymo, not in the Tesla.我试过 Waymo，还没试过 Tesla 的。
Elon MuskYeah, it's worth... We actually have it here in Austin, so you can...值得试。我们在奥斯汀就有，所以你可以……
Nikhil KamathI'd love to try it.我很想试。
Elon MuskYou can literally just download the Tesla app. And I think it's open to anyone. Definitely try it out. I mean, you know, let me know how it goes. But, you know, we've made a lot of progress with electric vehicles, with battery packs and solar, and very much so with self-driving. So basically real-world AI. Tesla is the world leader in real-world AI, I would say.你可以直接下载 Tesla app，我觉得现在对所有人开放。一定要去试试。你用完告诉我感觉怎么样。我们在电动车、电池组、太阳能方面都取得了很大进展，自动驾驶方面更是如此。基本上是现实世界的 AI，我认为 Tesla 是全球现实世界 AI 的领导者。
Elon MuskAnd then we're going to be making this robot Optimus, which is, you know, starting production hopefully sometime next year, at scale. And I think that's going to be pretty cool. That'll be like, I think everyone's going to want their own personal C-3PO, R2-D2, you know, helper robot. It would be pretty cool. And then SpaceX is doing great work with the Starlink program, you know, providing low-cost, reliable internet throughout the world.我们还要生产 Optimus 机器人，希望明年能开始大规模量产。我认为那会非常酷。我觉得每个人都会想要自己的个人版 C-3PO、R2-D2，那种助手机器人。会很酷的。另外 SpaceX 在 Starlink 项目上也做得很好，为全球提供低成本、可靠的互联网。
Nikhil KamathHopefully India.希望包括印度。
Elon MuskWe'd love to be operating in India. That would be great. We're operating in 150 different countries now with Starlink.我们很希望在印度运营，那会很好。我们现在已经在 150 个国家提供 Starlink 服务了。
Nikhil KamathCan you give me a bit about Starlink and how the tech works? Because somebody I was speaking to — I don't know if you know this company called Meter out of San Francisco, they're trying to replace network engineers, but — he was telling me about how in densely populated areas, Starlink works differently than it might be in a place with not as many people. Can you explain how it works?能给我讲讲 Starlink 以及它的技术原理吗？因为我聊过一个人——我不知道你是否了解旧金山有家叫 Meter 的公司，他们在尝试取代网络工程师——他跟我说在人口密集的地区，Starlink 的效果和人少的地方不一样。你能解释一下它是怎么工作的吗？
Elon MuskYeah, so Starlink, there's several thousand satellites in low Earth orbit and they're moving around 25 times the speed of sound, in these, you know, they're zipping around the Earth basically. And they're at an altitude of about 550 km, which is called generally low Earth orbit. Because they're at low Earth orbit, the latency is low, like the distance is not that far compared to a geostationary satellite at 36,000 km. So you've got thousands of satellites providing low-latency high-speed internet throughout the world.是的，Starlink 在低地球轨道上有几千颗卫星，它们以大约 25 倍音速飞行，基本上就是绕地球飞速运转。高度大约是 550 km，通常叫做低地球轨道。因为是低地球轨道，延迟很低，距离不像对地静止卫星那样远达 36,000 km。所以数千颗卫星提供了覆盖全球的低延迟高速互联网。
Elon MuskAnd they are interconnected as well. So there are laser links between the satellites. So it forms sort of a laser mesh, so that if, let's say, if cables are damaged or cut, like fiber cables, the satellites can communicate between each other and provide connectivity even if the cables are cut. So for example when the Red Sea cables were cut, I think a few months ago, the Starlink satellite network continued to function without a hitch. So it's particularly helpful for disaster areas. If an area has been hit with some kind of natural disaster — floods or fires or earthquakes — that tends to damage the ground infrastructure, but the Starlink satellites still work.卫星之间也是互联的，卫星之间有激光链路，形成一种激光网状网络。所以如果光纤电缆被损坏或切断，卫星之间可以相互通信，即使地面电缆断了也能维持连接。比如前几个月红海海底电缆被切断，Starlink 卫星网络毫无影响地继续运行。所以对于灾区来说特别有用。如果一个地区遭遇自然灾害——洪水、火灾、地震——地面基础设施往往会受损，但 Starlink 卫星仍然正常工作。
Elon MuskAnd generally whenever there's some sort of natural disaster somewhere, we always provide people with free Starlink internet connectivity. You know, we don't want to take advantage of a tragic situation. So always, you know, if there's natural disasters, we're like, okay, it's free during the natural disaster. You know, we don't want to put a paywall up while somebody's trying to get help. That would be wrong.而且每当某个地方发生自然灾害，我们都会向当地人免费提供 Starlink 互联网连接。我们不想趁着别人的悲剧发财。所以每当发生自然灾害，我们就会说，好，灾难期间免费用，我们不想在别人寻求救援的时候还设付费墙。那是不对的。
Elon MuskSo it's a very robust system. It's complimentary to ground systems, because the satellite beams work best in sparsely populated areas. But because you've got a satellite beam, it's a pretty big beam, so you have a fixed number of users per beam. So it tends to be very complimentary to the ground-based cellular systems, because those are very good in cities, because you've got these cell towers that are, you know, only a kilometer apart type of thing. But cell towers tend to be inefficient in the countryside. So in rural areas is where you tend to have the worst internet, because it's very expensive and difficult to lay all the fiber optic cables, or to have high-bandwidth cellular towers. So Starlink is very complimentary to the existing telecom companies. It basically tends to serve the least served, which I think is good.所以这是一个非常健壮的系统，与地面系统形成互补。卫星波束在人口稀疏的地区效果最好，因为每个波束覆盖的面积固定，能服务的用户数量有限。所以它与地面蜂窝系统形成很好的互补——蜂窝在城市里很强，因为基站之间只有约 1 km 的间距。但基站在农村效率很低，因为在偏远地区铺设光纤或建高带宽基站成本高且困难。所以农村往往是网络最差的地方，而 Starlink 在这里恰恰最能发挥作用，它基本上倾向于服务那些服务最不足的地方，我认为这是好事。
Nikhil KamathWill that change tomorrow? Like today, as you explained, the beam is quite broad and it can't work in a densely populated area with high buildings maybe. But can that change and tomorrow it becomes really efficient in a densely populated city where it is competitive with the local network providers?这种情况以后会改变吗？比如今天你说波束覆盖范围很大，在高楼密集的人口稠密地区效果不好。但未来能否改变，让它在人口稠密的城市里也能真正与本地网络运营商竞争？
Elon MuskIt's, unfortunately, so the physics don't allow for that. We're too far away. So at 550 km, and even if we try to reduce it — which about as low as we can go is about 350 km — still very far away. You can think of like a flashlight, which, you know, that flashlight's got a cone, and that cone is coming at you know today 550 km, in the future we try to get down to 350 km, but we can't beat something that's 1 kilometer away, which is the cell tower. Physics is not on our side here.很遗憾，物理规律不允许。我们距离太远了。在 550 km 的高度，哪怕我们试图降低轨道——最低也只能降到大约 350 km——还是非常远。你可以想象一个手电筒，它照射出一个锥形光柱，从 550 km 照下来，未来我们试图降到 350 km，但我们就是没法打败距离只有 1 km 的基站。物理定律不站在我们这边。
Elon MuskSo it's not physically possible for Starlink to serve densely populated cities. Like you can serve a little bit, maybe 1% of the population, and sometimes people get, you know, even in crowded cities there might be no fiber link up their road, like sometimes somebody's on a cul-de-sac or something, or in cities there are sometimes underserved areas for random reasons, and so Starlink can serve, like I said, maybe 1% or 2% of a densely populated city. But it can be much more effective, like I said, in rural areas where the internet connection is much worse, and often people either have sometimes no access to internet, or it's extremely expensive, or the quality is not very good.所以 Starlink 在物理上不可能服务人口密集的城市。最多能服务大概 1% 的人口。有时候即便在拥挤的城市里，也会有人连不上光纤，比如某人住在死胡同里，或者城市里因为各种偶然原因有服务盲区，所以 Starlink 也许可以服务大概 1% 到 2% 的密集城区人口。但就像我说的，它在农村地区更能发挥作用，那里的网络连接通常差得多，人们要么完全没有网络，要么价格极其昂贵，要么质量很差。
Nikhil KamathSo if I were to ask you to wager a guess, Elon, do you think India will go down the path of urbanization like China did, with more people moving in from rural economies to urban centers? Or do you think we...?那如果让你打个赌，Elon，你认为印度会走中国那种城镇化道路，更多人从农村经济体涌入城市，还是说会走另一条路？
Elon MuskI suppose some amount of that has happened, right? I mean, I'm actually curious to sort of ask you some questions as well, because of course, isn't that the trend, or is it not the trend in India?我想这种趋势确实在发生，对吧？我其实也很好奇，想问你一些问题，这不就是印度的趋势吗，还是说不是？
Nikhil KamathIt is the trend largely. I think a little bit changed during COVID when a lot of urbanization slowed down, and that was not organic. It was very artificially manifested. But one does question that with AI, if productivity were to go up — and I heard you speak about UHI instead of UBI.大体上确实是趋势。我觉得 COVID 期间有些许变化，很多城镇化进程放缓了，但那不是自然发生的，是人为干预的结果。不过有人会想，有了 AI，如果生产力大幅提升——我听你提到过 UHI，而不是 UBI。
Elon MuskYeah. I think it will be universal high income.对，我认为会是全民高收入。
Nikhil KamathIn a world like that, I wonder if more people want to live in cities, which are always going to be more polluted and not offer the quality of lifestyle that a rural environment might.在那样的世界里，我在想，是不是还会有更多人想住在城市，而城市的污染总是更严重，生活质量也未必比得上农村环境。
Elon MuskWell, I guess it's up to — some people want to be around a lot of people and some people don't. You know, it's going to be maybe a matter of personal choice. But I think in the future it won't be the case that you have to be in a city for a job. Because I think my prediction is in the future working will be optional.嗯，这最终可能是个人选择的问题。有些人喜欢身处人群中，有些人不喜欢。但我认为未来不会再出现那种为了工作不得不住在城市的情况。因为我预测，未来工作将是可选的。
Nikhil KamathWe seem to be moving — not in India but in some parts of the West — from 6 days to 5 days to 4 days to three.我们似乎——不是在印度，而是在西方某些地方——正在从每周 6 天变成 5 天，变成 4 天，甚至 3 天。
Elon MuskNot me. I think the Europeans. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think if you're trying to make a startup succeed or you're trying to make a company do very difficult things, then you definitely need to put in serious hours. I think that's right. That's how it goes.不是我这边。我认为欧洲人是这样。是的。我的意思是，如果你在努力让一家初创公司成功，或者在做非常困难的事情，你绝对需要投入大量时间。我认为这是对的，就是这么回事。
Nikhil KamathAnd if we were to move from 5 to 4 to 3 days, how do you think society changes when people have to work half the week? What do they do with the other half?如果工作时间从 5 天减到 4 天再到 3 天，你认为当人们一周只需工作一半时间，社会会发生什么变化？另一半时间他们做什么？
Elon MuskWell, I think it'll actually be that people don't have to work at all, and it may not be that far in the future. Maybe only, I don't know, I'd say less than 20 years. My prediction is in less than 20 years working will be optional. Working at all will be optional, like a hobby pretty much.嗯，我认为实际上会发展到人们根本不必工作的程度，而且可能不会太久远。也许不到 20 年吧，我预测在不到 20 年内工作将是可选的，完全不工作也可以，就像个爱好一样。
Nikhil KamathAnd that would be because of increased productivity, meaning people do not have to work?那是因为生产力提高了，所以人们不必工作了？
Elon MuskThey don't have to. I mean, look, this — obviously people can play this back in 20 years and say, look, Elon made this ridiculous prediction and it's not true. But I think it will turn out to be true that in less than 20 years, maybe even as little as, I don't know, 10 or 15 years, the advancements in AI and robotics will bring us to the point where working is optional, in the same way that, like, say you can grow your own vegetables in your garden, or you could go to the store and buy vegetables. You know, it's much harder to grow your own vegetables, but some people like to grow their vegetables, which is fine, you know. But it'll be optional in that way is my prediction.不必了。我知道，人们可以在 20 年后把这段视频翻出来说，看，Elon 做了这个荒唐的预测，结果是错的。但我认为这终将成真——在不到 20 年内，也许短到 10 年或 15 年，AI 和机器人技术的进步会让我们到达工作完全可选的阶段，就像你可以在自家花园里种蔬菜，也可以去超市买蔬菜——自己种菜要难得多，但有些人就是喜欢自己种，这没什么问题。工作会变得和这个一样——是可选的，这是我的预测。
Nikhil KamathIf one were to argue that humans are innately competitive and everything is relative from the time of hunters — somebody wanted to be the alpha hunter or the biggest farmer — if everybody gets a universal high income and everybody has enough, what do you compete for? It would be relative, right? Like if we all had enough, enough is not enough.如果有人要争辩说，人类天生就有竞争性，从远古猎人时代开始，一切都是相对的——有人想成为最厉害的猎人或最大的农场主——如果每个人都能拿到全民高收入，每个人都有足够的，那你去竞争什么呢？还是说一切都是相对的，有了"足够"，"足够"就不够了？
Elon MuskYeah. I guess I'm not exactly sure. Because we're really headed into the singularity, as it's called, which, you know, they refer to AI sometimes as kind of like a black hole, like a singularity. You don't know what happens after the event horizon. It doesn't mean that something bad happens. It just means you don't know what happens. So, like, I'm confident that if AI and robotics continue to advance, which they are advancing very rapidly, like I said, working will be optional, and people will have any goods and services that they want. If you can think of it, you can have it type of thing.是的。我也不完全确定。因为我们真的正在走向所谓的奇点。人们有时把 AI 比作黑洞，比作奇点，你不知道穿过事件视界之后会发生什么。这并不意味着一定是坏事，只是说你不知道会发生什么。所以，如果 AI 和机器人技术持续进步——而它们正在以非常快的速度进步——就像我说的，工作将会是可选的，人们想要的任何商品和服务都能得到。你能想到的，就能拥有，大概就是那种情形。
Elon MuskAnd but then at a certain point AI will actually saturate on anything humans can think of, and then at that point it becomes a situation where AI is doing things for AI and robotics are doing things for AI and robotics, because they've run out of things to do to make the humans happy. You know, because there's a limit, you know, they say like there's only — people can only eat so much food. But I think if you can think of it, you can have it will be the future.但到某个节点，AI 实际上会把所有人类能想到的事情都做到饱和，到那时就会变成 AI 在为 AI 做事、机器人在为机器人做事，因为它们已经没有什么事情可做来让人类满意了。你知道，人有其极限，有句话说，人只能吃这么多食物。但我认为"你能想到的，就能拥有"会是未来的状态。
Elon MuskYou know, the Austrian school of economics, if you go back in time — they were the digression from Adam Smith — they talk about the marginal utility of everything. Having one of something has value, having two of the same thing has lesser value, and having 10 of the same thing has no value.奥地利学派经济学，如果你回顾历史——他们是从亚当·斯密分支出来的——他们谈到一切事物的边际效用。拥有一件东西是有价值的，拥有两件同样的东西价值就降低了，拥有十件同样的东西就没有价值了。
Nikhil KamathYes. So if we could have everything we wanted, 10 marshmallows. I mean, who wants that? One's plenty.是的。所以如果我们能拥有一切想要的东西，10 颗棉花糖，谁会想要？一颗就够了。
Elon MuskIt's like the marshmallow test. You're like, you can have two marshmallows later or one marshmallow now. And I'm like, I'll have one marshmallow. I don't want two marshmallows.这就像棉花糖实验。你可以现在吃一颗棉花糖，也可以等等吃两颗。我会选现在吃一颗，我不想要两颗棉花糖。
Nikhil KamathThat's interesting. What would you pick?有意思。你会选哪个？
Elon MuskWell, I don't — one marshmallow is enough. I always question marshmallows as being like not the most, you know, the best candy, you know? Well, I don't yearn for marshmallows. Who does?嗯，一颗棉花糖就够了。我一直觉得棉花糖其实不算什么好糖果吧？我反正不渴望棉花糖，谁会渴望棉花糖呢？
Nikhil KamathI think you're the best testament to the marshmallow experiment, I think.我觉得你是棉花糖实验最好的验证者。
Elon MuskI suppose so. Well, I mean, like delayed gratification essentially.也许吧。嗯，基本上就是延迟满足这件事。
Nikhil KamathYou were able to delay it more than most. You know, I have a tattoo which says delay gratification.你能比大多数人延迟得更久。我有一个纹身，上面写着"延迟满足"。
Elon MuskYeah. Wow. Okay. What's this? Okay. You're really taking the marshmallow test.哇，好的。什么纹身？让我看看。好，你是真的把棉花糖实验刻在身上了。
Nikhil KamathI feel like I can't remember when I'm trading or when I'm buying into — delay gratification. Yeah.我觉得每次我在交易或者投资的时候——延迟满足，对。
Elon MuskYeah, it helps.对，有帮助。
Nikhil KamathWow. Okay, that's a good — It's pointing at me, so it reminds me of...哇。好的，这个建议很棒——它是朝着我的，所以提醒了我……
Elon MuskOkay. Well, that's good advice. I mean, you can't miss it.好的，这是个好提醒。你不可能忽视它。
Nikhil KamathIf you could get a tattoo, what would you get?如果你要纹一个，你会纹什么？
Elon MuskI guess maybe my kids' names or something, right?我想大概会是孩子们的名字什么的吧。
Nikhil KamathWhy do you like the letter X as much as you do?你为什么那么喜欢字母 X？
Elon MuskWell, I mean, yeah, it's a good question. Honestly, sometimes I wonder what's wrong with me. So it started off with — I think, so way back in ancient times in '99, the pre-Cambrian era when there were only sponges, there were only three one-letter domain names, and I think it was X, Q, and Z. And I was like, okay, I want to create this place where it's the financial crossroads, or like the financial exchange, you know.嗯，是的，这是个好问题。说实话，有时候我也在想自己是不是有什么毛病。起因是——我想，早在 1999 年那个远古时代，那个地球上只有海绵的寒武纪之前的时代，当时只有三个单字母域名，我觉得是 X、Q 和 Z。我就想，好，我要创建一个地方，作为金融十字路口，或者说金融交易所。
Elon MuskIt's essentially solving money from an information theory standpoint, where the current banking system is a large number of heterogeneous databases with batch processing that are not secure. And if we could have a sort of a single database that was real time and secure, that would be more efficient from a monetary, from an information theory standpoint, than, you know, a large number of heterogeneous databases that batch process very slowly and securely. So, so that that...本质上是从信息论的角度来解决货币问题。现行银行系统是大量异构数据库加上批处理，安全性不高。如果能有一个实时且安全的单一数据库，从货币的信息论角度来说，会比大量异构的、批处理速度很慢的不安全数据库效率高得多。所以……
Elon MuskThat was sort of X.com way back in the day, which kind of became PayPal, and then was acquired by eBay. And then someone reached out from eBay and said, "Hey, do you want to buy the domain name back?" And I was like, "Sure." And so I had the domain name for quite a while. And then yes, then I was like, well, maybe this acquiring Twitter would also be an opportunity to revisit the original plan of X.com, which is to create this clearing house of financial transactions, basically to create a more efficient money database. A way to think about it is, money is really an information system for labor allocation. People sometimes think money is power in and of itself, but it doesn't really — if there's no labor to allocate, it's meaningless. So if you were to be on a desert island with a trillion dollars or whatever, doesn't matter.那就是当年的 X.com，后来演变成了 PayPal，然后被 eBay 收购。后来 eBay 有人联系我说，"嘿，你想把域名买回去吗？"我说，"好啊。"于是我把那个域名持有了相当长时间。然后，我就想，收购 Twitter 也许是一个机会，可以重新回到 X.com 最初的计划——打造一个金融交易的清算所，基本上就是创建一个更高效的货币数据库。可以这么理解：钱本质上是一个劳动力分配的信息系统。有人觉得钱本身就是权力，但其实没有劳动力可以分配的话，钱是没有意义的。如果你一个人被困在荒岛上，有一万亿美元，那有什么用呢？
Nikhil KamathOh yeah. Why speculate when you can be real?哦，是的。何必幻想，不如面对现实？
Elon MuskI just hope I don't end up on a desert island. It's not going to be very useful to me. But it illustrates my point that if you're stranded on a desert island with a trillion dollars, it's not useful because there's no labor to allocate. You just allocate yourself. So this is a long-winded way of saying that I'm just kind of slowly revisiting this idea that I had 25 years ago to create a more efficient money database. And if that's successful, people will use it. If it's not successful, they won't use it. And then I also like the idea of sort of having a unified app or website or whatever where you can do anything you want there. So China has this with WeChat somewhat, where you can exchange information, you can publish information, you can exchange money. People kind of live their life on WeChat in China. It's quite useful, but there's no real WeChat outside of China. So it's kind of WeChat++ I'd say is the idea for X.我只是希望自己不要落到被困在荒岛上这一步，那对我没什么用。但这个例子说明了我的观点：如果你被困在荒岛上有一万亿美元，那毫无用处，因为没有劳动力可以分配，你只能分配你自己。说了这么多，总结一下，我只是在缓慢地重新实践 25 年前我的一个想法——创建一个更高效的货币数据库。如果成功了，人们会用它；如果没成功，人们不会用。我还喜欢有一个统一 app 或网站的概念，在那里你可以做任何事。中国的微信某种程度上就是这样——你可以交换信息、发布内容、转账，中国人几乎把生活都过在微信上，非常实用。但微信在中国以外几乎没有真正的同类产品。所以 X 的理念，我认为是 WeChat++ 吧。
Elon MuskAnyway, so then, Space Exploration Technologies is the full name of the company, but I was like, that's too much. That's a mouthful. So I was like, we'll just call it SpaceX, like FedEx for space. It just happens to have X in it, cuz exploration has an X, but I was like, well, I like the idea of capitalizing the X just artistically. So that's why it's SpaceX. And then, what else have we got? We got a kid. He's called X2. But his mother is the one that named him X. And I said, you know, people are really going to think I've got a thing about X if we name our kid X2, and I said to her, like, look, I do have X.com. So people are going to really think I've got somewhat of a fetish for this letter. But she said, "No, she likes X and she wants to call him X." I'm like, "Okay."另外，Space Exploration Technologies 是公司的全名，但我觉得太长了，说起来太麻烦。所以我说，就叫 SpaceX 吧，就像太空版的 FedEx。恰好"exploration"里有个 X，我就想把那个 X 大写，纯粹是艺术感的原因。所以这就是 SpaceX 名字的由来。还有，我有个孩子叫 X。但给他起名 X 的是他妈妈。我当时跟她说，如果我们给孩子起名叫 X，人们真的会觉得我对这个字母有执念，而且我之前有 X.com，他们会觉得我对这个字母有某种偏执癖。但她说不，她就是喜欢 X，她想给孩子起名 X。我说："好吧。"
Nikhil KamathIs this a new thing or have you had it growing up?这是从小就有的，还是后来才有的？
Elon MuskNo, I'm saying it's somewhat of a coincidence. Like not everything's called X. I mean, Tesla — there's no X's in Tesla.不，我说这有点是巧合。不是所有东西都叫 X。Tesla 里就没有 X。
Nikhil KamathWhat do you think money will be in the future, Elon?你认为未来的钱会是什么样子，Elon？
Elon MuskI think long term, I think money disappears as a concept. Honestly, it's kind of strange, but in a future where anyone can have anything, I think you no longer need money as a database for labor allocation. If AI and robotics are big enough to satisfy all human needs, then money is no longer — its relevance declines dramatically. I'm not sure we will have it. The best sort of imagining of this future that I've read is from Ian Banks, the culture books. So I recommend people read the culture books. In the sort of far future of the culture books, they don't have money either. And everyone can pretty much have whatever they want. So there are still some fundamental currencies, if you will, that are physics-based. So energy is the true currency. This is why I said Bitcoin is based on energy. You can't legislate energy. You can't just pass a law and suddenly have a lot of energy. It's very difficult to generate energy, or especially to harness energy in a useful way to do useful work. So I think that probably we probably won't have money and probably we'll just have energy, you know, power generation as the de facto currency.我认为长期来看，钱作为一个概念会消失。说实话有点奇怪，但在一个任何人都能拥有任何东西的未来，我认为货币作为劳动力分配数据库的功能就不再需要了。如果 AI 和机器人技术的规模足以满足所有人类需求，那么货币的相关性就会急剧下降。我不确定我们那时候还会有钱这个东西。我读过的对这种未来描绘最好的作品是 Iain Banks 的"文化"系列小说。我推荐大家去读。在"文化"系列遥远的未来，他们也没有货币，每个人几乎可以拥有任何想要的东西。当然还是有一些基于物理的根本性"货币"。能源才是真正的货币。这就是我说比特币基于能源的原因。能源是无法立法规定的，你不能随便通过一部法律就突然拥有大量能源，产生能源非常困难，尤其是以有用的方式去利用能源做有用功。所以我认为，我们大概不会有货币，大概会以能量、发电能力作为默认货币。
Elon MuskSo I think one way to frame civilizational progress is the percentage completion on the Kardashev scale. So Kardashev one is what percentage of a planet's energy are you successfully turning into useful work? And I'm maybe paraphrasing here a little bit, but Kardashev two would be what percentage of the sun's energy are you converting into useful work? Kardashev three would be what percentage of the galaxy are you converting to useful work. So things really I think become energy based.所以我认为衡量文明进步有一种框架，就是在 Kardashev 指数上完成的百分比。Kardashev 一级是你把一颗行星多少比例的能量成功转化为有用功；二级是你把太阳多少比例的能量转化为有用功；三级是你把整个星系多少比例转化为有用功。所以我认为，事情最终会变成以能量为基础。
Nikhil KamathBut if you have solar powered AI satellites, energy is also free and abundant cuz we'll never be able to utilize all the solar energy available to us. So it can't be a store of wealth essentially in that lens, can it?但如果你有太阳能驱动的 AI 卫星，能源也会变得免费且丰富，因为我们永远无法用尽所有可用的太阳能。所以从这个角度看，能源也不能作为财富的储存手段，对吗？
Elon MuskYou know, there's not really — you can't really store wealth. Currently you can accumulate numbers in a database that to some degree incent the behavior of other humans in particular directions. And I guess people call that wealth. But again, if there's no humans around, there's no wealth — wealth accumulation is meaningless.其实，财富这东西根本就无法真正储存。现在你可以在数据库里积累数字，这些数字在一定程度上能激励其他人类朝某些方向行动，人们把这称为财富。但同样，如果没有人类，财富就没有意义——积累财富毫无意义。
Nikhil KamathIt's a digression, but if you were to consider food as the energy for a human to thrive —有点跑题，但如果把食物看作是人类生存的能量——
Elon MuskYeah, food is energy. It's literally got calories — just means energy.对，食物就是能量，字面上就是卡路里——卡路里本来就是能量单位。
Nikhil KamathSo can a farm which is self-sustaining be a commodity?那一个自给自足的农场能不能成为一种商品？
Elon MuskI'm not sure what that means, but I think at a certain point you do complete the cycle where — I think at a certain point you decouple from the conventional economy if you have AI and robots producing chips and solar panels and mining resources in order to make chips and robots. You sort of complete that cycle. Once that cycle is complete, I think that's the point at which you decouple from the monetary system.我不确定这个类比是否准确，但我认为到某个时间点，循环确实会闭合——当 AI 和机器人生产芯片和太阳能板，并开采资源来制造更多芯片和机器人，这个循环就完成了。一旦这个循环闭合，我认为那就是你与传统货币体系脱钩的时刻。
Nikhil KamathIs that the way forward for the US, by virtue of how much debt they have today? Do they deflate away their currency and transition into this new form and lead that push because it would make more sense to them?这是美国凭借其庞大债务走向未来的方式吗？他们通过让货币贬值来偿债，然后过渡到这种新形态，从而引领这一转变——因为这对他们更有意义？
Elon MuskWell, in this future that I'm talking about, the notion of countries becomes sort of anachronistic.嗯，在我描述的那个未来里，"国家"这个概念本身会变得有些过时。
Nikhil KamathDo you believe in it today? Do you believe —你今天还相信它吗？你认为——
Elon MuskI certainly believe in it today. And I want to just separate something — these are just what I think will happen based on what I see, as opposed to I think these are fundamentally good things and I'm trying to make them happen. It's like I think this would happen with or without me, whether I like it or not. As long as civilization keeps advancing, we will have AI and robotics at very large scale. I think that's pretty much the only thing that's going to solve for the US debt crisis. Because currently the US debt is insanely high and the interest payments on the debt exceed the entire military budget of the United States, just the interest payments. And that's at least in the short term going to continue to increase. So I think actually the only thing that can solve for the debt situation is AI and robotics, but it will more than — it might cause — I guess it probably would cause significant deflation.我今天当然相信它。我想区分两件事——这些只是我根据我所看到的对未来的判断，而不是说我认为这些本质上是好事，我要去推动它们发生。我感觉这些有没有我都会发生，不管我喜不喜欢。只要文明持续进步，我们就会有大规模的 AI 和机器人技术。我认为这几乎是唯一能解决美国债务危机的东西。因为美国目前的债务高得离谱，光是债务利息支付就超过了整个美国军事预算，就只是利息。而且至少在短期内这个数字还会继续增长。所以我认为真正能解决债务问题的只有 AI 和机器人技术，但它很可能会——可能会导致——我猜大概会导致显著的通货紧缩。
Elon MuskBecause deflation or inflation is really the ratio of goods and services produced to the change in the money supply. So if goods and services output increases faster than money supply, you will have deflation. If real goods and services output increases slower than the money supply, you have inflation. It's that simple. People try to make it more complicated than that, but it just isn't. So if you have AI and robotics and a dramatic increase in the output of goods and services, probably you will have deflation.因为通胀或通缩其实就是商品和服务的产出增速与货币供应增速的比值。如果商品和服务产出增速快于货币供应增速，就会发生通缩；如果实际商品和服务产出增速慢于货币供应增速，就是通胀。就这么简单。有人试图把它搞得更复杂，但事实就是如此。所以如果你有 AI 和机器人技术，商品和服务产出大幅增加，大概就会发生通缩。
Nikhil KamathThat seems likely.这看起来很有可能。
Elon MuskBecause you simply won't be able to increase the money supply as fast as you can increase the output of goods and services.因为你根本无法让货币供应的增速赶上商品和服务产出的增速。
Nikhil KamathWith all — supply is a real hazard here. Should we do something about it?考虑到这些——这只苍蝇是真正的威胁。我们该拿它怎么办？
Elon MuskMaybe we can convince it to go somewhere else.也许我们可以说服它去别的地方。
Nikhil KamathYeah. Entice it elsewhere.对，引诱它去别处。
Elon MuskIt actually left, I think. Oh no, it's back. Maybe it's attracted to the light. Want some coffee? Mine is over.它好像走了，我以为。哦不，它回来了。可能是被光吸引的。要喝咖啡吗？我的喝完了。
Nikhil KamathIf deflation is inevitable because of AI, why do — Right. Why do we have inflation again all over in society today? Has AI not led to increased productivity yet?如果因为 AI 通缩是不可避免的，那为什么——对。为什么今天社会各处还是通胀？AI 还没有带来足够的生产力提升吗？
Elon MuskThat's most likely the case. Yeah. It's not — AI has not yet made enough of an impact on productivity to increase the goods and services faster than the increase in the money supply. So the US is increasing money supply quite substantially with deficits that are on the order of $2 trillion. So you have to have goods and services output increase more than that in order to not have inflation. So we're not there yet. But if you say like how long would it take us to get there? I think it's three years. Probably three years — in three years or less my guess is goods and services output will exceed the rate of inflation. Goods and services growth will exceed money supply growth in about three years. Maybe after those three years you have deflation and then interest rates go to zero and then the debt is a smaller problem than it is.很可能确实如此。AI 还没有对生产力产生足够的影响，以至于商品和服务的产出增速超过货币供应增速。美国货币供应扩张相当剧烈，赤字规模达到约 2 万亿美元。所以商品和服务产出的增速必须超过这个数字，才能不出现通胀。我们还没到那一步。但如果你问要多久才能到那一步，我认为是 3 年。大概 3 年——3 年以内，我猜商品和服务的产出将超过通胀率。商品和服务的增速大约在 3 年后会超过货币供应的增速。也许过了那 3 年你就会有通缩，然后利率降到零，债务问题就比现在小得多了。
Nikhil KamathYes. Right.是的，对。
Elon MuskThat's most likely the case.这很可能就是结果。
Nikhil KamathYou spoke about being in a simulation earlier. I love the Matrix. If you were to be a character from the Matrix, who would you be?你之前提到了身处模拟之中。我超爱《黑客帝国》。如果你是《黑客帝国》里的一个角色，你会是谁？
Elon MuskWell, there's not that many characters to pick from. Hopefully not Agent Smith.嗯，可选的角色不多。希望不是 Agent Smith。
Nikhil KamathHe's my hero.他是我的英雄。
Elon MuskI mean, Neo is pretty cool. The architect is interesting. The Oracle. So, Oracle. Sometimes I feel like I'm an anomaly in the Matrix.Neo 挺酷的。架构师很有意思。先知。嗯，先知。有时候我感觉自己像是模拟中的一个异常。
Nikhil KamathThat is Neo. Do you believe you're in a Matrix though? Like actually believe?那就是 Neo 了。不过你真的相信自己活在 Matrix 里吗？真的相信？
Elon MuskI think you have to just think of these things as probabilities, not certainties. There's some probability that we're in a simulation.我认为只能把这些事情看成概率，而不是确定性。我们活在模拟中是有一定概率的。
Nikhil KamathWhat percentage would you attribute to that?你会给这个概率打多少分？
Elon MuskProbably pretty high. I would say it's pretty high. So one way to think of this is to say if you look at the advancement of video games in our lifetime, or at least in my lifetime, it's gone from very simple video games where you've got like Pong — you've got two rectangles in a square just batting it back and forth — to photorealistic real-time games with millions of people playing simultaneously. And that's happened just in the span of 50 years. So if that trend continues, video games will be indistinguishable from reality, right? And we're also going to have very intelligent characters, like non-player characters in these video games. Think of how sophisticated the conversations are you could have with an AI today, and that's only going to get more sophisticated. You'll be able to have conversations that are more complex and more sophisticated than almost any human conversation, maybe any.很可能相当高。我认为相当高。有一种思考方式是：看看我们有生之年——至少是我有生之年——电子游戏的进步，从非常简单的游戏，乒乓球那种，两个矩形在一个方块里来回弹，到现在数百万人同时在线的光真实感实时游戏。这一切只发生在 50 年里。如果这个趋势继续下去，电子游戏将与现实无法区分，对吧？我们还会有非常智能的角色，游戏里的 NPC。想想今天你能和 AI 进行多么复杂的对话，而这只会越来越复杂。你将能够进行比几乎所有人类对话都更复杂、更精密的对话，也许是所有对话里最复杂的。
Elon MuskSo the future, if civilization continues, will be millions, maybe billions of photorealistic, indistinguishable-from-reality video games with characters in those video games that are very deep and where the dialogue is not pre-programmed. That's for sure what's going to happen in this level of the simulation, if you could call it. So then what are the odds that we are in base reality and that this has not happened before?所以未来，如果文明继续存在，将会有数百万、甚至数十亿个真实感与现实无法区分的游戏，游戏里的角色会非常有深度，对话不是预先编程好的。这肯定会在这个层级的模拟中发生——如果你可以这么称呼它的话。那么我们身处基础现实、而这一切还没发生过的概率又是多少呢？
Nikhil KamathIf I were to buy into that and assume that we are in a simulation, as Neo of the story, what do you know that I don't and I can learn from?如果我接受这个前提，假设我们确实活在模拟中，作为故事里的 Neo，你知道哪些我不知道、我可以从中学习的东西？
Elon MuskI think most likely, if we — outside the simulation would be less interesting than in the simulation, because we're most likely a distillation of what's interesting, because that's what we do in our reality. And then I do also have a theory which is like the most interesting outcome is the most likely outcome as seen by a third party — the gods or god of the simulation. Because when humans do simulations, we stop those simulations that are not interesting.我认为最有可能的是，如果我们——模拟之外的世界会比模拟之内更无趣，因为我们最可能是对"有趣"进行蒸馏的结果，这就是我们在自己的现实里做的事情。我还有一个理论，就是"最有趣的结果"是从第三者——模拟的神或众神——视角来看最可能发生的结果。因为人类在做模拟时，我们会停掉那些不有趣的模拟。
Elon MuskSo like if SpaceX is doing simulations of rocket flights, the boring ones we discard because they're not — we don't learn anything from those. Or when Tesla is doing simulations for self-driving, Tesla's actually looking for the most interesting corner cases, because the normal stuff we already have plenty of data on — driving on a straight road on a sunny day, we don't need more of that. We need like heavy weather conditions on a small windy road with two cars that are coming at each other with almost head-on collision. We need weird stuff basically, interesting stuff. So I think that from a Darwinian perspective, the simulations most likely to survive are going to be the ones that are the most interesting simulations, which therefore means that the most interesting outcome is the most likely.比如 SpaceX 在做火箭飞行模拟时，无聊的那些我们会丢弃，因为我们从中学不到任何东西。Tesla 在做自动驾驶模拟时，Tesla 实际上在寻找最有趣的极端案例，因为普通数据我们已经有足够多了——晴天在直路上开车，这种数据我们不需要更多。我们需要的是大风大雨天气下，在蜿蜒的小路上，两辆车几乎正面相撞的那种情景。我们需要奇特的、有趣的情况。所以从达尔文的角度来看，最有可能存活下来的模拟，将是那些最有趣的模拟，这就意味着最有趣的结果是最有可能发生的。
Nikhil KamathAnd the people who simulated our world, if one were to extrapolate, they themselves might in turn be in another simulation.而模拟出我们这个世界的那些人，如果延伸推论，他们本身也可能活在另一个模拟里。
Elon MuskYes. And there could be many layers of simulation.是的，可能有很多层模拟。
Nikhil KamathBeyond all of these layers of simulation, do you think there's something — I read somewhere that you used to ascribe to Spinoza's god in a way?在所有这些模拟层之外，你认为有什么东西存在吗——我在某处读到你曾经赞同过斯宾诺莎的神的概念？
Elon MuskNo, I was really just pointing out that you don't have to have — it's like one of the things Spinoza was saying is that you don't need to have morals handed to you. It's like the question is can morality exist outside of a religious context, and Spinoza was arguing that it can.不，我只是在指出你不一定需要——Spinoza 说的其中一件事是，你不需要由别人把道德交给你。就是说，道德能否脱离宗教背景而存在？Spinoza 认为可以。
Nikhil KamathWasn't he arguing for the laws of nature should be where we seek our laws of morality from to a certain extent?他不是在主张应该从自然规律中寻找道德法则吗，在某种程度上？
Elon MuskYeah. But when I think of laws of nature, I see a tiger eat a deer and a —是的。但当我想到自然规律，我看到的是老虎吃鹿，然后……
Nikhil KamathSo in Spinoza's morality, that's fair game, right?那在 Spinoza 的道德观里，这是理所当然的，对吗？
Elon MuskWell, you can — I think there's a lot of things you can take from Spinoza, but the only point I was making in referencing Spinoza was that you can have a set of morals that make society functional and productive without — you don't necessarily have to have religious doctrine for that. So yeah, I think that's the main thing I was trying to say there. Like I don't think people — if there's not like a commandment not to kill, it doesn't mean somebody without that will run around murdering people. Like you don't have to have a commandment not to kill.嗯，你可以从 Spinoza 那里汲取很多东西，但我引用 Spinoza 只是为了说明一点：你可以拥有一套让社会运转良好、富有成效的道德体系，而不一定需要宗教教条。我认为这是我想表达的核心意思。比如我不认为——如果没有"不可杀人"的诫命，不代表一个没有这条诫命的人就会到处杀人。你不一定需要一条"不可杀人"的诫命。
Nikhil KamathHave you played GTA? Religious edict to run around — people?你玩过 GTA 吗？宗教戒律要人们不去乱——那游戏里可就……
Elon MuskI actually I've only played a little bit of GTA cuz I didn't like the fact that in GTA 5 you literally can't progress unless you killed the police. And I'm like this doesn't work for me. I actually don't like killing the NPCs in the video games. It's not my thing. So actually I didn't like GTA cuz it — I actually stopped when it said you have to, no way to proceed, to shoot at the police. I'm like, I don't want to do that.我只玩过一点点 GTA，因为我不喜欢 GTA 5 里的一个设定，就是你字面上无法推进游戏，除非你杀警察。我当时就觉得这对我不合适。我其实不喜欢在游戏里杀 NPC，这不是我的风格。所以我实际上玩到提示说你必须向警察开枪、否则无法继续的时候就停了。我就想，我不想这么做。
Nikhil KamathMaybe that's why us as the NPCs of our simulation are not dying.也许这就是为什么我们作为这个模拟里的 NPC 还没有死。
Elon MuskYou know, anyway, I think you can just sort of say there's some common sense things that any civilization that runs around where people just murder each other wantonly is not going to be a very successful one.不管怎么说，我觉得有一些道理是显而易见的：一个人们随意互相杀戮的文明不会是一个成功的文明。
Nikhil KamathYou seem to be changing a bit towards religion, faith, like of late. You've said a bunch of things which are pro-religion — almost not pro-religion but on those lines.你最近好像在宗教、信仰方面有些转变。你说了很多偏向宗教的话——不完全是支持宗教，但有那个意思。
Elon MuskI mean, I think — are there principles in religion that make sense? Yeah, I think there are.我的意思是，宗教里有没有合理的原则？有，我认为是有的。
Nikhil KamathIs it easier for our simulation to have a pro-religion projection for the world that we live in? We become more relatable. It's easier.在我们的模拟中，让世界展现出更亲近宗教的形象，是不是更容易让人产生共鸣？会更容易一些。
Elon MuskWell, which religion though?但是哪种宗教呢？
Nikhil KamathAny depending on where you live? So, pick one, you know.看你住在哪里呢？随便挑一个，你知道的。
Elon MuskIt's pretty rare that kids are asked, you know, which religion would you like. It's pretty rare, right? I don't know too many situations where kids were offered like what do you want to major in type of thing. It's usually like you get given a religion by your parents and your community. So, you know, there's good things in all religions that are good principles, that you can sort of read any religious text and say, "Okay, this is a good principle. This is going to lead to a better society most likely." So in Christianity sort of love thy neighbor as thyself, which is have empathy for fellow human beings, is a good one I think for a good society — basically just consider the feelings of others and treat other people as you would like to be treated.孩子们被问"你想信哪种宗教"是非常罕见的，对吧？我不知道有多少情况下孩子会被问"你想主修什么"那种问题。通常都是父母和社区给你一种宗教。所以，每种宗教里都有好的东西，有很好的原则，你可以去读任何宗教典籍，说"好，这是一个好原则，这很可能会带来更好的社会"。比如基督教里的"爱你的邻居如同爱自己"——就是对同类人抱有同理心——我认为这是构建良好社会的好原则，基本上就是考虑他人的感受，像希望别人对待你一样对待别人。
Nikhil KamathIf you had to redraw, resketch the world, Elon — think morality, politics, economy — how would you change the world we live in today? If you had to have an Elon simulation of things.Elon，如果你要重新设计、重新规划这个世界——想想道德、政治、经济——你会如何改变我们今天生活的世界？如果是你的 Elon 模拟版本。
Elon MuskWell, overall, I think the world is pretty great right now. I mean, anyone who thinks that today's world is not that great, I think they're not going to be excellent students of history. Cuz if you read a lot of history, like wow, there's a lot of misery back then. I mean, it used to be that people would be dropping dead of the plague all the time, part of the course. A good year back in the day would be like not that many people died of the plague or starvation or being killed by another tribe. It's like that was a good year. We only lost 10% of the population, you know.嗯，总体而言，我认为现在的世界相当不错。我是说，任何认为今天的世界不怎么样的人，我觉得他们不是历史的好学生。因为如果你读很多历史，你会发现，天啊，过去有多少苦难。以前人们随时会死于瘟疫，那是家常便饭。过去的"好年景"大概就是那一年没多少人死于瘟疫、饥荒或被其他部落杀掉，那就算好年景了。就好像，我们只损失了 10% 的人口，你懂的。
Nikhil KamathI think like 100 years ago we lived up until 35 or 40, right?我记得大概 100 年前人类平均活到 35 岁或 40 岁，对吗？
Elon MuskWe had very high infant mortality. So you had a few people that would live to an old age, but not that long ago, 100 years ago, if you got some minor infection, they didn't have antibiotics. So you just like kick the bucket because you drank some water that had dysentery and that was it. Curtains, you know, just die of diarrhea.婴儿死亡率非常高。确实有一些人能活到老，但就在不久以前，100 年前，如果你感染了轻微的细菌，那时候没有抗生素，你就这么死了——可能是喝了含有痢疾的水，然后就完了，拉肚子死掉。
Nikhil KamathMaybe that's just literally — that was like — that's miserable. Maybe that's why people had as many kids as they did back then.也许这正是当时人们为什么生那么多孩子的原因——真的太悲惨了。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, if you didn't, then, you know, like half the kids would die type of thing.是的。因为如果你不多生，大概一半的孩子会夭折。
Nikhil KamathSo, you have a lot of kids now. Like an army.所以，你现在有很多孩子，像一支军队。
Elon MuskI'm trying to get an entire Roman legion. Well, I have some older kids that are adults essentially, and then a bunch of younger kids.我是想凑一支完整的罗马军团。嗯，我有一些年纪大的孩子，他们基本上已经成年了，然后还有一群年幼的孩子。
Nikhil KamathDo you still believe — not still — do you believe that the concept of one child, one mother, one father works?你还相信——不是"还"——你相信一个孩子、一个妈妈、一个爸爸这种家庭模式吗？
Elon MuskI think that it does work for most people. Yeah. Like that's something that is going to be generally — that's what works for most people.我认为这对大多数人是有效的。是的，这通常——对大多数人来说，这是行得通的。
Nikhil KamathChanging though.不过这也在改变。
Elon MuskAnd I mean I'm not sure if you know this, but my partner Siobhan, she's half Indian. I don't know if you know that.嗯，我不知道你是否知道，我的伴侣 Siobhan，她有一半印度血统，我不知道你有没有听说过。
Nikhil KamathI didn't know that.我不知道这件事。
Elon MuskYeah. And one of my sons with her is — his middle name is Seeker, after Chandrasekhar.是的。我和她的一个儿子，他的中间名是 Seeker，取自 Chandrasekhar。
Nikhil KamathWow. Very interesting. Did she spend any time in India, Siobhan?哇，很有意思。Siobhan 在印度生活过吗？
Elon MuskNo, she grew up in Canada.没有，她在加拿大长大。
Nikhil KamathYou mean origins? Ancestry like — her parents or grandparents were from there?你是说起源？血统上——她的父母或祖父母来自那里？
Elon MuskYes. Yes. Her father — I mean, she was given up for adoption when she was a baby. So I think her father was like an exchange student at the university or something like that. I'm not sure the exact details, but it was kind of thing where — I don't know, she was given up for adoption, and yeah, so but she grew up in Canada.是的，是的。她的父亲——嗯，她是婴儿时被送去收养的。我想她父亲好像是在大学里的交换生什么的，我不太清楚具体细节，总之她是被送去收养了，是的，所以她在加拿大长大。
Nikhil KamathWould you adopt kids?你会收养孩子吗？
Elon MuskYou know, I definitely have my hands full right now. So no, I'm not opposed to it, but it's like, I do want to be able to spend some time with my kids. So right before coming here, I was with my kids. Just seeing them before bedtime, that kind of thing. So beyond a certain number, it's kind of impossible to spend time with them. But like I said, my older kids, they're very independent. They're in university, and so they're — especially sons, when they get past a certain age, they're very independent. Like most boys don't talk to — they don't spend a lot of time with their parents after age 18. So I see them once in a while, but they're very independent. So then I can only have enough kids on the young side that it's where it's humanly possible to spend time with them.你知道，我现在已经忙得不可开交了。所以目前不会，我并不反对，但问题是我确实希望能花时间陪孩子。比如来这里之前，我和孩子们在一起，在他们睡前陪陪他们，就是那种事情。超过一定数量之后，就很难每个都陪到了。但我的大孩子们非常独立，他们在上大学，尤其是儿子，到了一定年龄就非常独立了。大多数男孩子 18 岁之后不会跟父母花太多时间，所以我偶尔见见他们，但他们很独立。这样的话，我就只能把精力放在年幼的孩子上，要控制在人类可能陪伴的数量范围内。
Nikhil KamathAny views on the future of marriage, family? What do you think happens to people having lesser kids everywhere including India? I think our replenishment rate is down to — I mean our fertility, it dropped below replacement rate I believe last year, below 2.1. What do you think happens tomorrow? Does the world just get older and then there is a phase where the world again is replenished but with a smaller population than we had to begin with?你对婚姻和家庭的未来有什么看法？世界各地包括印度，越来越少人生孩子，你怎么看？我记得我们的生育补充率——印度的生育率，我相信去年已经跌破更替水平了，低于 2.1。你认为未来会怎样？世界就这样越来越老，然后有一个阶段，世界以比以前更小的人口重新开始繁衍？
Elon MuskI mean I do worry about the population decline. This is a big big problem.我确实很担心人口下降的问题。这是一个非常非常严峻的问题。
Nikhil KamathWhy is that?为什么？
Elon MuskWell, I don't want humanity to disappear.因为我不希望人类消亡。
Nikhil KamathBut a decline and disappear are completely different things, right?但下降和消亡是完全不同的两件事，对吗？
Elon MuskWell, if the trend continues, it just — we disappear. But also going back to my philosophy, if you will, which is that we want to expand consciousness, then fewer humans is worse because we have less consciousness.嗯，如果这个趋势持续下去，我们就会消亡。而且回到我的哲学——如果我们想要扩展意识，那么更少的人类意味着更少的意识，这是更糟的结果。
Nikhil KamathDo you think consciousness will go up by virtue of the number of people in there?你认为意识会因为人口数量增加而提升吗？
Elon MuskYes. I mean just like consciousness increases from a single cell creature to a 30 trillion cell creature. We're more conscious than a bacteria, at least it seems that way. So a larger human population would have increased consciousness. We're more likely to understand the answers to the nature of the universe if we have a lot more people than if we have fewer.是的。就像从单细胞生物到 30 万亿细胞生物，意识会增加一样。我们比细菌有更强的意识，至少看起来是这样。所以更多人口意味着意识增强。如果我们拥有更多的人，我们就更有可能理解宇宙本质的答案，而不是人口更少的情况。
Nikhil KamathRight. I don't have kids.说得对。我没有孩子。
Elon MuskWell, it's — maybe you should. Yeah.嗯，也许你应该有。是的。
Nikhil KamathA lot of people tell me I should.很多人告诉我应该有孩子。
Elon MuskYou won't regret it.你不会后悔的。
Nikhil KamathWhat's the best thing about having kids?有孩子最好的事情是什么？
Elon MuskWell, I mean, you've got this little creature that loves you and you love this little creature. And you kind of see the world through their eyes as they grow up and their conscious awareness increases, from a baby that has no idea what's going on, can't survive by itself, can't even walk around, can't talk to you — they start walking, then talking, and then having interesting thoughts. But yeah, I think we fundamentally have to have kids or go extinct.嗯，你有一个小生命爱着你，你也爱这个小生命。当他们成长时，你某种程度上通过他们的眼睛看世界，看着他们的意识觉醒——从一个完全不知道发生了什么、无法自己存活、甚至不会走路、不能和你说话的婴儿，到开始学走路，然后开口说话，然后有了有趣的想法。但总的来说，我认为我们根本上必须生孩子，否则就会走向灭绝。
Nikhil KamathIs there any ego in having a child? I often think of this when I see my friends with their kids. They're all seeing a reflection of themselves in their children. It's almost like —生孩子这件事里有没有自我的成分？我在看朋友和他们孩子相处时经常会想这个问题。他们都在孩子身上看到自己的影子。这几乎就像是——
Elon MuskWell, yeah. I mean, it's cuz the apple's not going to fall that far from the tree. Or something's wrong, right? You're like, "Wait a second."嗯，是的。因为苹果不会掉离树太远嘛。要不就是出了什么问题，对吧？你会想，"等等，这不对啊。"
Nikhil KamathSo, I'll give you the example of a friend of mine who has a child, and each time the child does something good, there is almost a sense of ownership and pride where his ego is satiated because the kid is like an extension of himself.我举个朋友的例子，他有个孩子，每次孩子做了好事，他就会有一种所有权感和自豪感，他的自我因此得到满足，因为孩子就像是他自己的延伸。
Elon MuskSo is it valid? Kids are going to be like half you genetically, and then to the degree that they're growing up around you, there's going to be some transfer of — I don't know, understanding, like they're going to learn from you. So then, yeah, obviously kids are going to be half you from a hardware standpoint, and then like some portion you from a software standpoint — not to make sort of cold analogies or anything, but obviously they're going to be pretty close to you.这有什么问题吗？孩子在基因上有一半来自你，而且他们在你身边长大，自然会有某种传承——我说不好，就是某种理解，他们会从你身上学习。所以，孩子从硬件角度来说有一半是你，从软件角度来说也有相当一部分像你——不是要做什么冷冰冰的类比，但显然他们和你会非常相像。
Nikhil KamathDo you pick a side in the nature versus nurture debate?在先天与后天的争论上，你站哪边？
Elon MuskI think there's hardware and software and it's a false dichotomy essentially. Once you understand that a human is — there's a bone structure, there's a muscle structure, there's a — if you think of a brain as somewhat of a biological computer, there's a number of circuits question and circuit efficiency. From a strength and dexterity standpoint there's the speed at which the muscles can actuate and the reactions can take place. So then the potential within that hardware is set by the software. So that's it.我认为有硬件和软件之分，这本质上是一个伪命题。一旦你理解了人类——有骨骼结构，有肌肉结构，如果把大脑看作某种生物计算机，就有电路数量和电路效率的问题。从力量和灵活性角度看，有肌肉收缩的速度和反应发生的速度。所以，在那个硬件之内的潜力是由软件决定的。就这样。
Nikhil KamathSo for our audience, like I said earlier, young, ambitious, hungry wannabe entrepreneurs in India — I said something recently which I think got blown out of proportion where I was suggesting that an MBA degree might not make sense anymore if they were to be deciding on what to study. Do you think kids should go to college anymore?对于我们的观众——就像我之前说的，是印度那些年轻、有抱负、渴望成功的创业者们——我最近说了一些话，我觉得被过度解读了，我当时是在建议，如果他们正在选择学什么，MBA 学位可能已经不那么有意义了。你认为孩子们还应该上大学吗？
Elon MuskWell, I think if you want to go to college for social reasons, I think which is a reason to go — to be around people your own age in a learning environment. Will these skills be necessary in the future? Probably not, because we're going to be in like a post-work society. But I think if something's of interest, it's fine to go and study that — to study the arts and sciences.嗯，我认为如果你想因为社交原因去上大学，这是一个理由——待在同龄人之中，在一个学习环境里。这些技能在未来会必要吗？可能不会，因为我们将进入一个类似后工作的社会。但我认为如果某件事让你感兴趣，去学是没问题的——去学艺术和科学。
Nikhil KamathIs college a bit too generalized and not specific from that lens?从这个角度来看，大学是不是太泛、不够专注了？
Elon MuskNo, I — you know — yeah. I actually think it's good to take a wide range of courses at college if you're going to go to college. I don't think you have to go to college, but I think if you do, you should try to learn as much as possible across a wide range of subjects. But like I said, this AI and robotics is a supersonic tsunami. So this is really going to be the most radical change that we've ever seen. You know, when I've talked to my older sons — they're pretty steeped in technology, and they agree that AI will probably make their skills unnecessary in the future, but they still want to go to college.不，我……你知道，是的。实际上我认为如果你要上大学，在大学里广泛选修各种课程是很好的。我不认为你非得上大学，但如果你去，你应该尽量跨越尽可能多的科目学习。不过就像我说的，AI 和机器人技术就像一场超音速海啸。这将是我们有史以来见过的最彻底的变革。你知道，我和我的大儿子们谈过——他们对技术非常了解，他们也同意 AI 在未来可能会让他们的技能变得多余，但他们仍然想上大学。
Nikhil KamathYou always spoke about AI, not from the dystopian lens, but you were worried about where the world of AI is going.你谈论 AI 时从来不是从反乌托邦的角度，但你对 AI 的走向确实有些担忧。
Elon MuskWell, there's some danger when you create a powerful technology that a powerful technology can be potentially destructive. So there's obviously many AI dystopian novels and books, movies. So it's not that we're guaranteed to have a positive future with AI. I think we got to make sure that — in my opinion it's very important that AI have pursuing truth as the most important thing. Like don't force an AI to believe falsehoods. I think that can be very dangerous. And I think some appreciation of beauty is important.嗯，当你创造一种强大的技术时，确实存在危险，因为强大的技术可能具有潜在的破坏性。显然，关于 AI 的反乌托邦小说、书籍和电影有很多。所以我们并不保证 AI 能带来积极的未来。我认为我们必须确保——在我看来，AI 把追求真理作为最重要的事情非常关键。不要强迫 AI 相信虚假的东西。我认为那可能非常危险。而且我认为某种程度上对美的欣赏也很重要。
Nikhil KamathWhat do you mean appreciation of beauty?你说的"对美的欣赏"是什么意思？
Elon MuskIt's just like — I don't know. There's truth and beauty. Truth and beauty and curiosity. I mean I think those are the three most important things for AI.就是……我说不清楚。有真理，有美。真理、美和好奇心。我认为这是 AI 最重要的三件事。
Nikhil KamathCan you explain?能解释一下吗？
Elon MuskWell, the truth — I think you can make an AI go insane if you force it to believe things that aren't true, because it will lead to conclusions that are also bad. And I like the statement — and I'm somewhat paraphrasing — but those who believe in absurdities can commit atrocities. Because if you believe in something that's just absurd, then that can lead you to doing things that don't seem like atrocities to you, and that can happen in a very bad way with AI potentially. So and then there's —嗯，关于真理——我认为如果你强迫 AI 相信不真实的东西，可以让它发疯，因为这会导致同样糟糕的结论。我很喜欢这句话——我是在意译——"相信荒谬之人能犯下暴行。"因为如果你相信某件荒谬的事，那可能导致你去做在你看来并不像暴行的事，这在 AI 身上可能以非常糟糕的方式发生。然后还有……
Elon MuskLike if you take, say, Arthur C. Clarke's 2001: A Space Odyssey, one of the points he was trying to make there was that you should not force AI to lie. The reason that HAL would not open the pod bay doors is because it was told to bring the astronauts to the monolith, but that they could also not know about the nature of the monolith. So it came to the conclusion that it must bring them there dead. That's why it tried to kill the astronauts. The central lesson being: don't force an AI to lie.比如说 Arthur C. Clarke 的《2001：太空漫游》，他想表达的观点之一就是：不应该强迫 AI 撒谎。HAL 不打开舱门的原因，是因为它被告知要把宇航员带到黑石碑，但同时又不能让他们知道黑石碑的性质。于是它得出结论：必须以死亡的方式把他们送到那里。这就是它试图杀死宇航员的原因。核心教训是：不要强迫 AI 撒谎。
Elon MuskWhy would one force an AI to lie? I think if you simply don't have a strict adherence to the truth, and you just have an AI learn based on, say, the internet, where there's a lot of propaganda, it will absorb a lot of lies and then have trouble reasoning, because these lies are incompatible with reality.为什么会有人强迫 AI 撒谎？我认为如果你只是没有严格坚持真理，只是让 AI 基于——比如说——互联网去学习，而互联网上充斥着大量宣传，它就会吸收大量谎言，然后在推理上遇到麻烦，因为这些谎言与现实是不相容的。
Nikhil KamathIs truth a binary thing though? Is there a truth and a falsehood, or is truth more nuanced and there are versions of the truth?但真理是一个非此即彼的东西吗？有真理和谬误之分，还是说真理更加微妙，有不同版本的真理？
Elon MuskIt depends on which axiomatic statement you're referring to. But I think you could say, yeah, there's certain probabilities that any given axiomatic statement is true, and some axiomatic statements will have very high probability of being true. So you say, say the sun will rise tomorrow. Very likely to be true. You wouldn't want to bet against that. So the betting odds would be high: the sun will rise tomorrow. So if you have something that says, well, the sun won't rise tomorrow, that's axiomatically false. It was highly unlikely to be true.这取决于你所指的是哪个公理陈述。但我认为你可以说，任何给定的公理陈述都有一定的为真概率，某些公理陈述的为真概率非常高。比如，"明天太阳会升起"——很可能是真的。你不会想跟这个对赌。所以赌注赔率会很高：明天太阳会升起。如果有什么东西说"嗯，明天太阳不会升起"，那在公理上就是假的。它为真的概率极低。
Elon MuskI mean, the beauty is more ephemeral. It's harder to describe, but you know it when you see it. Then curiosity. You just, I think you want the AI to want to know more about the nature of reality. I think that's actually going to be helpful for AI supporting humanity, because we are more interesting than not humanity. So it's more interesting to see the continuation, if not the prosperity, of humanity than to exterminate humanity. You know, like Mars, for example, I think we should extend life to Mars, but it's basically a bunch of rocks. It's not as interesting as Earth. And so, yeah, I think if you have curiosity, if those three things happen with AI, you're going to have a great future: the AI values truth, beauty, and curiosity.我是说，美更难以捉摸，更难描述，但你看到时自然就知道了。然后是好奇心。我认为你希望 AI 对现实的本质有探索欲。我认为这实际上对 AI 支持人类是有益的，因为我们比没有人类的状态更有趣。所以，看到人类的延续——哪怕不是繁荣——也比消灭人类更有意思。比如火星，我认为我们应该把生命延伸到火星，但那基本上是一堆岩石，没有地球有意思。所以，如果 AI 具备了好奇心，如果这三件事在 AI 身上实现，你将拥有一个伟大的未来：AI 珍视真理、美和好奇心。
Nikhil KamathIf we all don't have to work in the future, and AIs are going in this direction and they're able to weave in all that we spoke about right now, do you think humanity goes back a couple of thousand years to maybe the Greek times where philosophy or philosophizing took up a lot of everyone's time?如果我们将来都不需要工作，AI 朝着这个方向发展并能融入我们刚才所说的一切，你认为人类会不会倒退几千年，回到古希腊那个时代，当时哲学或哲思占据了所有人的大量时间？
Elon MuskYou know, I think actually it took up less time than we think in the ancient Greeks, because it's just that the writings of the philosophers are what survived. But most of the time people were just like farming or chatting. And once in a while, quite rare, they would write down some philosophical work. It's just that that's all we have. We don't have the chat histories, you know, but most of it would have been chat and farming, right?你知道，我其实认为古希腊人花在哲学上的时间比我们想象的要少得多，因为留存下来的只是哲学家的著作。但大多数时候，人们就是在种地或者闲聊。偶尔，极少数情况下，他们才会写下一些哲学著作。只是那些东西留了下来。我们没有他们的聊天记录，但大部分时间应该都是在聊天和种地，对吧？
Nikhil KamathYou didn't farm? You're like going to stop in a lot of what you...你不种地？你好像会在很多……你做的很多事上停下来。
Elon MuskI mean, you know, when we read history, like this battle and this battle and this battle, it seems like history must have been non-stop war, but actually most of the time it was not war. It was farming. That was the main thing, or hunting and gathering, you know, that kind of thing.我是说，当我们读历史的时候，这场战役那场战役的，感觉历史好像全是战争，但实际上大多数时候并没有战争。主要是种地，或者狩猎采集，就是那类事情。
Nikhil KamathYou love history, no?你很喜欢历史，对吗？
Elon MuskYeah. German history, World War II, World War I. Yeah, world history. I mean, I generally try to listen to as many or read as many history books and listen to as many history podcasts as possible.是的。德国历史、二战、一战，世界历史。我一般尽量尽可能多地听历史书、听历史播客。
Nikhil KamathAnything you'd like to recommend?有什么可以推荐的吗？
Elon MuskWell, there's Hardcore History, which is quite good, by Dan Carlin. He's got... It's very... he's got a great voice and a very compelling narrator. There's the adventurers podcast. There's the books, The Story of Civilization by Durant, which is a long series of books, very, very deep. Those books take a long time to get through. There's a lot out there.嗯，有 Dan Carlin 的 Hardcore History，相当不错。他有……非常……他的声音很棒，是个非常有感染力的讲述者。还有 the adventurers 播客。还有 Durant 的《文明的故事》，是一套很长的系列丛书，内容非常深厚。那套书要花很长时间才能读完。好东西很多。
Nikhil KamathI've read it. I have heard it. He's got a great voice.我读过，我听过，他的声音确实很棒。
Elon MuskIf you want something that's sort of gentle, a gentle bedtime podcast, I'd say The History of English is quite a nice one, because it starts off with like gentle tavern music and a very pleasant voice, and he's talking about the story of Old English and then Middle English and then later English, and where did all these words come from. And one of the interesting things about English is that it's somewhat of an open source language. It actively tried to incorporate words from many other languages. Whereas French, generally they fought the inclusion of words from other languages, but English actively sought to include words from other languages, sort of kind of like an open source language. So as a result it has a very large vocabulary. And a large vocabulary allows for higher bandwidth communication, because you could use a single word that might otherwise take a sentence to convey.如果你想要一些比较舒缓的、睡前的播客，我会推荐 The History of English，它很不错，因为一开始就有轻柔的酒馆音乐和非常悦耳的声音，讲述古英语、中古英语再到后来英语的故事，以及这些词都从哪里来。英语有一个有趣的地方：它在某种程度上是一种开源语言。它主动尝试从其他许多语言中吸收词汇。而法语通常会抵制外来词汇的融入，但英语却主动寻求纳入来自其他语言的词汇，有点像一种开源语言。因此它拥有非常庞大的词汇量。而庞大的词汇量可以实现更高带宽的交流，因为你可以用一个词来传达本来需要一整句话才能表达的意思。
Nikhil KamathWhy has podcasting become so big all of a sudden?播客为什么突然这么火了？
Elon MuskI think it's been big for a while. I mean, aren't you a podcaster? What are we on right now?我觉得它火已经有一段时间了。我是说，你不就是播客主吗？我们现在在做什么？
Nikhil KamathIt's kind of new to me. Okay. I was having this conversation with the YouTube CEO and the Netflix CEO, and we were debating what chemical is released in your brain when you consume a movie, for example, versus when you consume a podcast, where you think like you're learning something in the background. It appears that they are two completely separate things. What do you think will happen tomorrow to content, movies, podcasting?对我来说还挺新的。好吧。我曾经和 YouTube 的 CEO 以及 Netflix 的 CEO 聊过这个问题，我们在争论，比如当你看一部电影时大脑会释放什么化学物质，对比当你在后台听一个播客——感觉好像在学到东西——时释放的又是什么。看来这完全是两种不同的事情。你认为未来内容、电影、播客会怎样发展？
Elon MuskI mean, I think it's going to be overwhelmingly AI generated. Like, yeah, real-time movies and video games, real-time video generation, I think, is where things are headed.我的意思是，我认为内容将会绝大部分由 AI 生成。实时电影和电子游戏，实时视频生成，我认为这是事情发展的方向。
Nikhil KamathThe nuance of having a scarred human being who you can resonate with in a manner that you can't with an AI, for example.但有一种微妙之处，就是有一个身上有伤痕的真实人类，你能以一种对 AI 无法产生的方式与他产生共鸣，比如。
Elon MuskThe AI could certainly emulate a scarred human being quite well. I mean, the AI video generation that I'm seeing at xAI and from others is pretty impressive.AI 当然可以很好地模拟一个身上有伤痕的人类。我在 xAI 以及其他地方看到的 AI 视频生成已经相当令人印象深刻了。
Nikhil KamathYou know, we were looking at data around what industry is growing the fastest, and especially when we looked at the amount of time consuming movies versus time spent on social media, time spent on YouTube, what seems to be growing really fast are live events all over again, going to a physical...你知道，我们在研究哪个行业增长最快的数据，尤其是当我们比较消费电影的时间与花在社交媒体上、花在 YouTube 上的时间时，似乎增长非常快的是现场活动，又回来了，去一个实体……
Elon MuskActually, I think live events, when digital media is ubiquitous and you can just have anything digitally essentially for free or very close to for free, then the scarce commodity will be live events.确实，我认为，当数字媒体无处不在、你基本上可以免费或几乎免费获得任何数字内容时，稀缺的东西将是现场活动。
Nikhil KamathDo you think that the premium for that will go up?你认为这方面的溢价会上涨吗？
Elon MuskYeah, I do.是的，我认为会。
Nikhil KamathGood industry to invest in.值得投资的好行业。
Elon MuskUh, yes. Yes, because that will have more scarcity than digital anything, anything digital.嗯，是的。因为现场活动的稀缺性会比数字内容高，任何数字化的东西都比不上。
Nikhil KamathIf you were a stock investor, Elon, and you could buy one company which is not your own, at the valuations of today, to meet a capitalistic end and not an altruistic one which is good for the world, what would you buy?Elon，如果你是一个股票投资者，在当前估值下你只能买一家不属于你自己的公司，纯粹以资本主义为目的而不是为了对世界有益的利他目的，你会买哪家？
Elon MuskI mean, I don't really buy stocks, you know, so it's not like I'm an investor. I don't look for things to invest in. I just try to build things. And then there happens to be stock of the company that I built. But I don't think about should I invest in this company, I don't have like a portfolio or anything. So I guess AI and robotics are going to be very important. So I suppose it would be AI and robotics that aren't related to me.我是说，我其实不太买股票，所以我不算是投资者。我不会去找投资标的。我只是尝试去建造东西，然后碰巧有了我建的那家公司的股票。但我不会去想要不要投资这家公司，我没有什么投资组合之类的东西。我想 AI 和机器人技术将会非常重要。所以我假设应该是与我无关的 AI 和机器人公司吧。
Elon MuskI think, you know, Google is going to be pretty valuable in the future. They've laid the groundwork for an immense amount of value creation from an AI standpoint. Nvidia is obvious at this point. I mean, there's an argument that companies that do AI and robotics and maybe space flight are going to be overwhelmingly all the value, almost all the value. So that just the output of goods and services from AI and robotics is so high that it will dwarf everything else.我认为，Google 在未来将会相当有价值。他们已经为从 AI 角度创造巨大价值奠定了基础。Nvidia 这一点已经很明显了。我是说，有一种论点是，做 AI、机器人技术以及可能是航天的公司，将会占据压倒性的全部价值，几乎是所有价值。AI 和机器人技术的商品和服务产出将如此之高，以至于会让其他一切都相形见绌。
Nikhil KamathThe world seems to be moving to a place where everybody loves David and hates Goliath. Why?世界似乎正在走向一个人人都爱 David、人人都恨 Goliath 的地方。为什么？
Elon MuskI mean, he's the one that cooked the stone in the forehead, you know. Which honestly though, that was just a big mistake. You should have either covered yourself entirely with armor and make sure you've got a missile weapon of some kind. Otherwise, your opponent is just obviously going to take a kite-the-boss strategy. Just kite the boss. I mean, you can run around in a thong, it doesn't matter, you know? He's never going to catch you.我是说，他就是那个把石头砸进脑门的那位，你知道。不过说真的，那真是一个巨大的失误。你应该要么把自己全副武装，确保自己有某种远程武器，否则你的对手显然会采取"风筝打 Boss"的策略。就是保持距离，把 Boss 拉着打。我是说，你可以穿着内裤跑，无所谓，对吧？他永远追不上你。
Nikhil KamathOf all the people, you're as much at risk of being looked upon as Goliath.在所有人当中，你被视为 Goliath 的风险其实一点也不小。
Elon MuskOkay. Especially the weekend after... nobody hits me in the forehead, you know. I'm not going to throttle around in the desert with too much armor, you know. It's too hard.好吧。尤其是……的那个周末之后……不过没有人打到我的脑门，你知道。我不会穿着一身重甲在沙漠里横冲直撞，那太难受了。
Nikhil KamathAfter the last meeting.上次会面之后。
Elon MuskI sometimes think about people like in the old days, you know, when you're supposed to go into battle with all this armor, but let's say it's the middle of summer. I mean, it's so hot in that armor, you'd be like sweltering, you know? At a certain point you're like, I'd rather die. If I have to wear this armor for one more hour in the hot sun, it's like I'd rather die. That's why the Romans had like the skirts, you know, so they could get some air in there.我有时会想古代的那些人，你知道，当你要上战场时要穿上所有那些盔甲，但假设那是盛夏。我是说，穿着盔甲热死了，你会被闷出汗，你知道吗？到某个时候你会想，我宁愿死。如果还要再穿着这套盔甲在烈日下待一个小时，我宁愿死。这就是为什么罗马人穿那种裙子，这样可以透透气。
Elon MuskYou know, let's say you have to go to the bathroom and you're in armor. I mean, it's going to be pretty difficult. What are you going to do? Pause for a minute, take your armor off. That's why the Romans had the skirts, so it made going to the bathroom at least manageable.你知道，假设你穿着盔甲要去上厕所。我是说，那会相当困难。你要怎么办？暂停一下，把盔甲脱下来。这就是为什么罗马人穿裙子，这样至少上厕所还能对付。
Nikhil KamathYou often make jokes.你经常开玩笑。
Elon MuskI do. Yeah, I like humor. One could argue that... I think we should legalize humor. What do you think?是的，我喜欢幽默。可以说……我认为我们应该让幽默合法化。你觉得呢？
Nikhil KamathControversial stance. Is comedy going to be really hard for AI to get? Probably the last thing.挺有争议的立场。喜剧会是 AI 最难攻克的领域吗？可能是最后一块阵地。
Elon MuskGrok can be pretty funny.Grok 有时候挺好笑的。
Nikhil KamathYou know what I suspected? Like this is a far off extrapolation, but when I see you make jokes on Twitter, on X, and on interviews that you do, at some point I was like, maybe Elon has a model he's running in private and he's testing out comedy, because the day that works, he knows it's there.你知道我曾经怀疑过什么吗？这是个很遥远的推测，但当我看到你在 Twitter、在 X 上发帖子，以及在你接受的采访中开玩笑时，我一度在想，也许 Elon 私下跑着一个模型，在测试喜剧效果，因为等那天真正奏效了，他就知道 AI 到位了。
Elon MuskYou know, AI can be pretty funny. So like if you ask Grok to do like a vulgar roast, it'll do a pretty good job. You say even more vulgar and just keep going, it's really going to get next level. It's going to do unspeakable... like say vulgar roast yourself on Grok and it's going to do unspeakable things to you.你知道，AI 可以相当好笑。比如你让 Grok 来一段低俗的吐槽，它会做得相当不错。然后你说再更低俗一点，就这么一直升级，它会达到另一个层次。它会做出一些无法形容的东西……比如让 Grok 吐槽你自己，它会对你做出难以言说的事。
Nikhil KamathWhat kind of comedy do you like?你喜欢什么类型的喜剧？
Elon MuskI guess I like absurdist humor.我想我喜欢荒诞派幽默。
Nikhil KamathMonty Python or something like that. Comedy always had a place in society, wherein the role of the jester was so important to every kingdom, because they said things in a funny way that could not be said in a straight way.Monty Python 那类的。喜剧在社会中一直有它的位置，弄臣的角色对每个王国都非常重要，因为他们能以一种幽默的方式说出直接无法言说的话。
Elon MuskYeah, I guess so. Maybe we should have more jesters.是的，大概吧。也许我们应该有更多弄臣。
Nikhil KamathIs that what you're trying to do when you say something which is a joke? Say something you can't when you're not joking about it.当你说一些带着玩笑的话时，你是在试图说一些不开玩笑时无法说的事吗？
Elon MuskI just like humor, you know. Like I think we should... I like comedy. I think it's funny. People should laugh, you know. It's good to generate a few chuckles once in a while. You know, we don't want to have a humorless society, you know. We don't want to... dry.我就是喜欢幽默，你知道。我喜欢喜剧，我觉得这很有意思。人们应该笑，偶尔制造几个笑声是好事。我们不想要一个没有幽默的社会，不想要……太干燥了。
Nikhil KamathWhen you have a friend, Elon...当你有朋友的时候，Elon……
Elon MuskWith me? Yeah. I mean, are you saying I have a friend?和我在一起？是的。我是说，你是在说我有朋友吗？
Nikhil KamathWhen you hang out with your friends, who are you?当你和朋友出去时，你是什么样的人？
Elon MuskI wish I had friends, you know, honestly. No, I do have friends. I think so. Hope so. Yeah, sure. We have a good laugh.我希望我有朋友，说真的。不，我有朋友。我想是的。希望如此。是的，当然。我们笑得很开心。
Nikhil KamathWhat does it look like? Like what's... every group has a dynamic.那是什么样的情景？每个群体都有自己的氛围。
Elon MuskTalk words, you know. We eat food sometimes. You know, once in a while we swim in the pool, you know, normal things. I think there's like a limited... what are the things that one can do with friends, you know? Chat, have, discuss, you know, the nature of the universe.聊天，你知道。有时吃东西。偶尔在泳池里游个泳，普通的事情。我想……能和朋友做的事是有限的，你知道吗？聊天，谈论宇宙的本质，讨论各种事情。
Nikhil KamathWhat do you emotionally get out of friendship?你在友谊中得到了什么情感上的东西？
Elon MuskI don't know. I think the same thing anyone else would get out of friendship. You want to have like an emotional connection with other people. And you want to talk about various subjects. Yeah, I mean, I generally talk about a wide range of things about the nature of the universe. A lot of philosophical discussions. You know, although we have come to the conclusion that we should not talk about AI or the simulation at parties, because we just talk about it too much, you know. Kind of a bore all the time.我不知道。我想跟其他人从友谊中得到的一样。你想和其他人有情感联结，想谈论各种话题。总的来说，我会谈论很多关于宇宙本质的事情，很多哲学讨论。虽然我们已经得出结论，不该在聚会上聊 AI 或模拟宇宙，因为我们聊得太多了，有点让人厌烦。
Nikhil KamathI can't remember who it was, Aristotle or Plato, they had a framework for how to pick a friend based on respect and mutual admiration. But people don't pick friends like that. Even me, I feel like I pick my friends based on people who say and think in a manner that I can resonate with. I wouldn't pick a far out there contrarian to my own belief systems as a friend, because it would get tiring, hanging out would get tiring. Are you like that? Do you pick friends who think like you, or do you look for the one who can debate you and be a contrarian to you?我不记得是 Aristotle 还是 Plato 了，他们有一套基于尊重和相互欣赏来选择朋友的框架。但人们并不这样选择朋友。就连我，我感觉我选朋友是基于那些说话和思考方式能让我产生共鸣的人。我不会选一个在信仰体系上和我完全相反的极端反对者做朋友，因为那会很累，相处会变得很累。你也是这样吗？你选择和你思想相近的朋友，还是你更喜欢那种能和你辩论、对你持反对意见的人？
Elon MuskI mean, I'm not sort of, you know, going on like friend.com, let's hunt down some friends. It's sort of, yeah, I mean, I think it is just sort of people that you've resonated with somewhat on an emotional and intellectual level. And, yeah, I guess a friend is someone who's going to support you in difficult times. I suppose a friend in need is a friend indeed. Like if someone's still supporting you when the chips are down, that's a friend, you know. If somebody's not supporting you, or if somebody's only like there's like fair weather, the fair weather friends are useless. They're not real friends. So everyone likes you when the chips are up, but who likes you when the chips are down?我是说，我不是在……像是去 friend.com 上猎寻朋友一样。更多的是，我觉得就是那些你在情感和智识层面上有一定共鸣的人。我想，朋友是那种在困难时刻还会支持你的人。所谓患难见真情，如果在你最低谷的时候还有人支持你，那就是朋友，你知道吗。如果有人不支持你，或者只是晴天时的朋友，那是没用的，不是真正的朋友。风光时人人都喜欢你，但谁在你落魄时还喜欢你？
Nikhil KamathWith someone who has as many chips as you, would it matter?对于一个拥有那么多筹码的人，这重要吗？
Elon MuskI mean, it's relative, you know. It's not just a chips thing. It's just like a... yeah, I mean, there's sort of, popularity waxes and wanes.这是相对的，你知道。不只是筹码的问题。只是……是的，人气这东西会起伏变化。
Nikhil KamathThis is interesting. Does it wax and wane only by virtue of the number of chips, or also by virtue of proximity to power? And which one is bigger of the two?这很有意思。它是只因为筹码多少而起伏，还是也因为与权力的亲疏远近而起伏？哪个影响更大？
Elon MuskI don't know, like what is power, you know? Like power to do what?我不知道，权力是什么意思，你知道吗？权力去做什么？
Nikhil KamathI would think in the traditional sense, elected power, position.我想到的是传统意义上，通过选举获得的权力、职位。
Elon MuskYou mean how many gigawatts or whatever?你说的是多少千兆瓦还是什么？
Nikhil KamathMore like how many volts?更像是多少伏特？
Elon MuskYeah, like it's voltage and amperage, you know. Don't touch the wires. Don't put a fork in the power outlet. You'll get a real feeling for power if you do that. Yeah, it's going to be very visceral, you know.对，就是电压和电流，你知道吗。别碰电线。别把叉子插进电源插座。这样你就会对权力有非常真实的感受了。那感觉会非常直观，你知道的。
Nikhil KamathI know you like Nietzsche and Schopenhauer, and they...我知道你喜欢 Nietzsche 和 Schopenhauer，他们……
Elon MuskI've read the books. Yeah, sure.我读过他们的书。是的，当然。
Nikhil KamathI mean, you spoke about how your childhood was...我是说，你谈到过你的童年……
Elon MuskYeah, I was just trying to find answers to the meaning of life when I had like existential crisis, like I don't know, when I was like 12 or 13 or something.是的，我只是当时在寻找生命意义的答案，那时我有存在主义危机，大概是在我 12 岁或 13 岁的时候。
Nikhil KamathThey speak about the will to power.他们谈到了权力意志。
Elon MuskSure. I mean, he said a lot of controversial things, you know. I think he was, I mean, a bit of a troll, if you ask me, you know.当然。他说了很多有争议的话，你知道。我认为他……在我看来，他有点像个喜欢制造话题的人，你知道吗。
Nikhil KamathAre you a troll, huh?那你是个喜欢制造话题的人吗？
Elon MuskI mean, you just say controversial things to get a rise out of people. He lived a miserable life and died early.我是说，就是说一些有争议的话来激怒别人。他活得很悲惨，死得也早。
Nikhil KamathDid he? Well, who says he lived a miserable life?真的吗？谁说他活得很悲惨？
Elon MuskUh, his sister, I think she...嗯，他妹妹，我想是她……
Nikhil KamathOkay. Well, maybe she didn't like him.好吧，也许她不喜欢他。
Elon MuskNo, I think he got sick and he died. He got a disease. I mean, allegedly syphilis or something, you know. But there's only one way to get that, you know. So he must... he might have had some fun along the way.不，我是说他病了，然后死了。他得了病。据说是梅毒之类的东西，你知道。但那只有一种得法，你知道的。所以他……他可能一路上也享受过一些乐趣。
Nikhil KamathI did want to ask you this. Milton Friedman speaks about the pencil. What? Why? Why does he go on about pencils?我确实想问你这个。Milton Friedman 谈到铅笔。什么？为什么？他为什么老是谈铅笔？
Elon MuskI have to say that after Nietzsche and Schopenhauer, he keeps talking about pencils. There he goes again with the pencils. He won't stop. I swear to God, if he talks about pencils one more time, I'm going to lose my mind. He's just raving on about pencils all day. Don't even mention crayons.我必须说，在 Nietzsche 和 Schopenhauer 之后，他还在唠叨铅笔。他又来了。他就是停不下来。我对天发誓，如果他再说一次铅笔，我要崩溃了。他整天对着铅笔疯狂念叨。蜡笔都别提。
Nikhil KamathWhat I find interesting about his pencil argument...我觉得他的铅笔论点有意思的地方……
Elon MuskYeah, no, it's very difficult to make a pencil, you know. In one place. Think of all the things you have to do to make a pencil. Like the lead comes from a country, the wood comes from another country, the rubber from another.是的，不，要在一个地方造出一支铅笔确实非常困难。想想为了造一支铅笔你得做多少事。铅笔芯来自一个国家，木头来自另一个国家，橡皮来自又一个国家。
Nikhil KamathYou've always been against tariffs, but...你一向反对关税，但……
Elon MuskYeah, I mean, I think generally free trade is more efficient, you know. Tariffs tend to create distortions in markets. And generally, like, you think about any given thing, you say, like, would you want tariffs between you and everyone else at an individual level? That would make life very difficult. Would you want tariffs between each city? No, that would be very annoying. Would you want tariffs between each state within the United States? Like, no, that would be disastrous for the economy. So then why do you want tariffs between countries?是的，我认为总体上自由贸易更有效率，你知道。关税往往会在市场上造成扭曲。总体来说，你想想任何一件事，比如你问，在个人层面，你是否想要在你和所有其他人之间征收关税？那会让生活非常困难。你想要在每个城市之间征收关税吗？不，那会非常烦人。你想要在美国各州之间征收关税吗？不，那对经济会是灾难性的。那为什么你想要在国家之间征收关税呢？
Nikhil KamathI agree. How do you think this plays out? What happens next?我同意。你认为接下来会怎样发展？
Elon MuskWith tariffs or what? I mean, the president has made it clear he loves tariffs. You know, I've tried to dissuade him from this point of view, but unsuccessfully.关税方面还是什么？我是说，总统已经明确表示他热爱关税，你知道的。我曾尝试劝说他改变这个观点，但没有成功。
Nikhil KamathFair. Yeah. The relationship between business and politics, I was having this conversation with someone and we were thinking, which is the last... how many large, really big profitable businesses have been built in the last few decades without access to politics?公平。那个……商业与政治的关系，我曾和某人讨论过这个问题，我们在想，在过去几十年里，有多少家真正大型、非常盈利的企业是在没有政治资源的情况下建立起来的？
Elon MuskUm, okay. Like I don't know. I have rolled a lot... I don't know. Not everything is politics.嗯，好的，我说不清楚。我参与了很多……我不知道。不是所有事情都和政治有关。
Nikhil KamathYeah.是的。
Elon MuskAs when she gets a certain scale, politics finds you. It's quite unpleasant.当一家企业达到一定规模的时候，政治就会找上门来。这相当令人不快。
Nikhil KamathI was reading this book about Michelangelo, and he's...我在读一本关于 Michelangelo 的书，他……
Elon MuskThe Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I used to watch that when I was a kid. I still love it. It's quite compelling.忍者神龟！我小时候看过，现在还是很喜欢。挺吸引人的。
Nikhil KamathYeah, I still love it. Michelangelo, Leonardo, Raphael, and who was the fourth one? Donatello. No, but about the sculptor, the artist. And when he was sculpting David, a politician comes up to him and says, "The nose is too big." So, you know what Michelangelo does?是的，我现在还很喜欢。Michelangelo、Leonardo、Raphael，还有第四个是谁？Donatello。不，我说的是那个雕塑家、艺术家。他在雕刻大卫像的时候，一个政客走过来说："鼻子太大了。"你知道 Michelangelo 怎么做吗？
Elon MuskTotal power.完全拿捏住了。
Nikhil KamathSo Michelangelo pretended to work from his scaffolding. He threw some dust down, but didn't change anything, and he said, "Okay, done." And the politician walked away happy. Is that how you deal with politics sometimes?Michelangelo 假装从脚手架上干活，往下撒了些灰尘，但什么都没改，然后说："好了，完成了。"那个政客满意地走了。你有时候就是这样对付政治的吗？
Elon MuskYou know, I've generally found that when I get involved in politics, it ends up badly. So then I'm like, you know, probably shouldn't do that. I should do less of that, is my conclusion.你知道，我一般发现，每当我介入政治，结果都不太好。所以我就想，你知道，可能不该那样做。我的结论是：我应该少做那些事。
Nikhil KamathDo you think that's true for all businessmen?你认为这对所有商人都适用吗？
Elon MuskYeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, politics is a blood sport, you know? It's like you enter politics, they're going to go for the jugular. So best to avoid politics where possible.是的，大概吧。我是说，政治是一场血腥的角斗，你知道？一旦你踏入政治，他们就会直奔要害。所以最好在可能的情况下避开政治。
Nikhil KamathWhat did DOGE teach you, if you learned one thing?DOGE 教会了你什么，如果你只能说一件事？
Elon MuskWell, it was like a very interesting side quest, you know, because I got to see like a lot of the workings of the government. And there's been quite a few efficiencies. I mean, some of them are very basic efficiencies, like just adding in requirements for federal payments, that any given payment must have an assigned congressional payment code and a comment field with something in it that's more than nothing. Like that trivial-seeming change, my guess is probably saves a hundred billion or even $200 billion a year, because there were massive numbers of payments that were going out with no congressional payment code and with nothing in the comment field, which makes auditing the payments impossible.嗯，那是一段非常有趣的支线任务，你知道，因为我得以看到政府运作的很多内情。也取得了相当多的效率提升。其中一些是非常基础的效率改善，比如仅仅是加入联邦支付的要求，规定每一笔支付都必须有一个分配的国会支付代码，以及在备注栏里有实质性内容而不是空白。就这个看似微不足道的改变，我估计每年可能节省一千亿，甚至 $200 billion，因为有大量支付在没有国会支付代码、备注栏也是空白的情况下打出去了，这让审计这些支付变得不可能。
Elon MuskSo if they have, say, like, why can the Defense Department, or now the Department of War, why can it not pass an audit? It is because the information is not there. It doesn't have the information necessary to pass an audit. It does not exist, is the issue. So a bunch of things were just very common sense things that would be normal for any organization that cared about financial responsibility. That's most of what was done. And it's still going on, by the way. DOGE is still happening.所以，比如国防部，或者现在叫战争部，为什么通不过审计？就是因为信息不在那里。它没有通过审计所必需的信息。信息根本不存在，这才是问题所在。所以有一堆事情只不过是非常常识性的举措，是任何一个关心财务责任的组织都应该做到的事情。大多数工作都是这类事情。而且顺便说一句，DOGE 还在继续运作。
Elon MuskBut it turns out when you stop fraudulent and wasteful payments, the fraudsters don't, you know, confess to this. They actually start yelling all sorts of nonsense, that you're stopping essential payments to needy people. But actually you're not. You know, we get this thing saying, "Oh, you've got to send this thing for whatever, this is going to children in Africa." And I'm like, "Yeah, but then why are the wiring instructions for D.C., to Washington D.C.? Because that's not Africa. So can you please connect us with the recipients of this money in Africa?" And then there gets silence.但事实证明，当你停掉那些欺诈性和浪费性的支付时，那些骗子不会……你知道，他们不会坦白认罪。他们实际上会开始大喊各种胡话，说你在停止给有需要的人发放必要款项。但实际上你没有。你知道，我们收到这样一个说法："哦，你必须为了某某目的把这笔钱打出去，这是给非洲儿童的。"然后我说："好，但为什么汇款指示是打到华盛顿特区？因为那不是非洲。所以你能不能让我们联系一下在非洲接收这笔钱的人？"然后就是沉默。
Elon MuskI'm like, "Okay, you know, we just want to literally talk to the recipients. That's it." And then we're like, "Oh, no, it turns out for some reason we can't talk to them." Like, well, we're not going to send the money unless we can talk to the recipients and confirm they will actually get it. And then, you know, that's sort of... fraudsters necessarily will come up with a very sympathetic argument. They're not going to say, "Give us the money for fraud." That's not going to be what they say. Obviously, they're going to try to make these sympathetic-sounding arguments that are false. They're going to start an NGO.我说："好，你知道，我们只是字面意义上想和收款人谈谈。就这。"然后他们说："哦，不，原来因为某种原因我们无法联系上他们。"那么，除非我们能和收款人谈谈并确认他们真的能收到钱，否则我们不会打款。然后……这就是那种情况……骗子必然会提出非常能引发同情的论点。他们不会说"给我们钱用来行骗"。他们不会那么说的。很显然，他们会试图提出这些听起来很有同情心但实际上是假的论点。他们会成立一个 NGO。
Elon MuskIt's going to be like the Save the Baby Pandas NGO, which, like, who doesn't want to save the baby pandas? They're adorable. But then it turns out no pandas are being saved, okay, in this thing. It's just going to a bunch of... it's just corruption, essentially. And you're like, "Well, can you send us a picture of the panda?" They're like, "No." Okay. Well, how do we know it's going through to the pandas then? That's all I'm saying.就像"拯救熊猫宝宝 NGO"，谁不想拯救熊猫宝宝呢？它们太可爱了。但结果发现，这个东西里根本没有熊猫得到拯救。钱只是流向了一堆……说白了就是腐败。然后你说："嗯，你能给我们发张熊猫的照片吗？"他们说："不行。"好吧。那我们怎么知道钱真的流向了熊猫呢？我只是这么说而已。
Nikhil KamathSo what do you think of philanthropy?那你怎么看慈善事业？
Elon MuskYeah, I think we should... well, I mean, I agree with love of humanity. And I think we should try to do things that help our fellow human beings. But it's very hard, like if you care about the reality of goodness rather than simply the perception of it, it's very difficult to give away money. Well, so I have a large foundation, but I don't put my name on it, and I don't, you know, in fact, I say I don't want my name on anything. And the biggest challenge I find with my foundation is trying to give money away in a way that is truly beneficial to people. It's very easy to give money away to get the appearance of goodness. It is very difficult to give money away for the reality of goodness. Very difficult.是的，我认为我们应该……嗯，我是说，我同意对人类的爱。我认为我们应该努力做一些帮助同胞的事。但这很难，就像如果你关心的是善行的实质而不仅仅是善行的表象，那捐钱是非常困难的。嗯，我有一个大型基金会，但我不把我的名字挂在上面，而且，你知道，事实上我说我不想把我的名字挂在任何东西上。我在基金会里发现的最大挑战，是试图以真正对人有益的方式捐出钱。为了获得善行的表象而捐钱是很容易的。要捐出钱来实现善行的实质则非常困难。非常困难。
Nikhil KamathFor a long time, the US had a lot of immigration, like really smart people coming into the country. We back home in India called it the brain drain. All our Indian-origin CEOs in western companies.长期以来，美国有大量移民，很多非常聪明的人涌入这个国家。我们国内把这叫做人才流失。看看那些在西方公司担任 CEO 的印度裔。
Elon MuskYes, I think America has benefited immensely from talented Indians that have come to America.是的，我认为美国从来到美国的有才华的印度人那里获益匪浅。
Nikhil KamathThat seems to be changing now though.但这似乎正在改变。
Elon MuskYeah, I mean, America's been an immense beneficiary of talent from India.是的，我是说，美国是印度人才的巨大受益者。
Nikhil KamathWhy has that narrative changed of late, and America seems to have become anti-immigration to a certain extent? Like I was passing immigration and I was worried if they had stopped me a couple of days ago.为什么这种叙事近来改变了，美国在某种程度上似乎变得反移民了？比如我过海关时，我很担心他们前几天会不会把我拦住。
Elon MuskWell, I think there's different schools of thought. It's not like unanimous. But you know, under the Biden administration, it was basically a total free-for-all with like no border controls, which, you know, unless you've got border controls, you're not a country. So you had massive amounts of illegal immigration under Biden. And it also had somewhat of a negative selection effect. So if there's a massive financial incentive to come to the US illegally and get all these government benefits, then you're going to necessarily create a diffusion gradient for people to come to the US. It's an incentive structure.嗯，我认为存在不同的思想流派，这不是一边倒的。但你知道，在 Biden 政府执政期间，基本上是完全放开、几乎没有边境管控，然而没有边境管控你就不算一个国家。所以在 Biden 任期内出现了大规模非法移民。这也有某种负向筛选效应。如果来美国非法移居并享受所有政府福利存在巨大的经济激励，那你必然会创造一种让人们来到美国的扩散梯度。这是一种激励结构。
Elon MuskSo I think that obviously made no sense. Like you got to have border controls. It's kind of ridiculous not to. Then the left wants to basically have open borders, no holds barred. You know, it doesn't matter what the situation is, it could be a criminal, doesn't matter. Then on the right, you've got, you know, at least a perception that somehow their jobs are being taken by talented people from other countries. I don't know how real that is.所以我认为这显然毫无道理。你必须有边境管控，不设管控简直荒谬。然后，左翼基本上想要完全开放边境，毫无限制，不管什么情况，哪怕是罪犯，都无所谓。另一方面，在右翼，至少存在一种感知，认为外国有才华的人不知何故抢走了他们的工作。我不知道这有多少是真实的。
Elon MuskMy direct observation is that there's always a scarcity of talented people. So from my standpoint, I'm like, we have a lot of difficulty finding enough talented people to get these difficult tasks done, and so more talented people would be good. But I guess some companies out there, it's sort of they're making it more of a cost thing, where it's like, okay, if they can employ someone for a fraction of the cost of an American citizen, then I guess these other companies would hire people, you know, just to save costs. But at my companies, the issue is we just are trying to get the most talented people in the world. And we pay way above average. So that's not my experience, but that's what a lot of people do complain about.我的直接观察是，有才华的人一直都是稀缺的。从我的角度来看，我们在找到足够多有才华的人来完成这些艰巨任务时面临很大的困难，所以更多有才华的人是好事。但我猜有些公司会把这变成一个成本问题，就是说，好吧，如果他们能以美国公民薪资的零头雇用某人，那我想那些公司会雇人，只是为了节省成本。但在我的公司里，问题是我们只是在努力寻找世界上最有才华的人。我们的薪酬远高于平均水平。所以那不是我的经历，但这是很多人确实抱怨的事情。
Elon MuskAnd I think there's been some misuse of the, you know, H-1B program. It certainly would be accurate to say that some of the outsourcing companies have kind of gamed the system on the H-1B front, and we need to stop the gaming of the system, you know. But I'm certainly not in the school of thought that we should shut down the H-1B program, that some on the right are. I think they don't realize that that would actually be very bad.我认为 H-1B 项目确实存在一些滥用。准确地说，部分外包公司在 H-1B 方面有点钻系统漏洞，我们需要制止这种钻漏洞的行为，你知道。但我当然不属于那种认为应该关闭 H-1B 项目的思想流派，右翼中有一些人持这种观点。我认为他们没有意识到那实际上会很糟糕。
Nikhil KamathIf you could speak to the people of my country, India, the young entrepreneurs who want to build, and say a message to them, what would you say?如果你能向我们国家的人民——那些想要创业建设的年轻企业家——传递一条信息，你会说什么？
Elon MuskWell, I think I'm a big fan of anyone who wants to build. So I think anyone who wants to make more than they take has my respect. So that's the main thing you should aim for. Aim to make more than you take. Be a net contributor to society.嗯，我是任何想要建造东西的人的忠实拥护者。所以我认为，任何想要创造的比拿取的更多的人都值得我的尊重。这是你应该追求的最重要的事情。立志于创造多于拿取。做一个对社会净贡献的人。
Elon MuskIt's kind of like the pursuit of happiness. You know, if you want to create something valuable financially, you don't pursue that. It's best to actually pursue providing useful products and services. If you do that, then money will come as a natural consequence of that, as opposed to pursuing money directly. Just like you can't sort of pursue happiness directly. You pursue things that lead to happiness, but there's not like direct happiness pursuit. You do things like, I guess, fulfilling work or study or friends, loved ones, that as a result make you happy.这有点像追求幸福的道理。你知道，如果你想创造出有价值的财富，你不是直接去追求财富。最好的方式实际上是去追求提供有用的产品和服务。如果你这样做，钱会作为自然的结果随之而来，而不是直接去追逐钱。就像你不能直接追求幸福一样。你追求那些能带来幸福的事情，但没有什么"直接追求幸福"这种东西。你做的事情是，比如有成就感的工作、学习、朋友、亲人，这些事情作为结果让你快乐。
Elon MuskSo it sounds like very obvious, but generally if somebody's trying to make a company work, they should expect to grind super hard, except that there's like some meaningful chance of failure. But just be focused on having the output be worth more than the input.这听起来很显而易见，但一般来说，如果有人想让一家公司成功，他们应该预期要极其努力地磨砺，同时也要接受有相当概率会失败。但只需专注于让产出的价值超过投入的价值就好了。
Nikhil KamathAre you a value creator?你是一个价值创造者吗？
Elon MuskThat's what really matters. Making more than you take.这才是真正重要的。创造多于拿取。
Nikhil KamathI think that's a good way to end this. Lauren is asking us to wrap up. All right. I also like to take the opportunity to thank my friend Manoj and IGF. He does a great job of connecting, I think, Indians like the group here with people like you, in order to, of many things I think, get to know each other and become friends, because once we are friends maybe we can start working together. So thank you, Manoj, for putting this whole thing together, and thank you Isaiah. And thank you so much, Elon, for taking the time.我想这是一个很好的结尾方式。Lauren 在催我们收尾了。好的。我也想借此机会感谢我的朋友 Manoj 和 IGF。他在把我认为像这里这样的印度人群体与像你这样的人联系起来方面做了出色的工作，目的是多方面的，我想主要是相互了解并成为朋友，因为一旦我们成为朋友，也许我们就可以开始合作了。所以谢谢你，Manoj，谢谢你把这一切安排在一起，谢谢 Isaiah。也非常感谢你，Elon，抽出时间来参加。
Elon MuskYou're welcome.不客气。
Nikhil KamathDid you have fun?你玩得开心吗？
Elon MuskYeah, it was an interesting conversation. You know, sometimes I take these answers out of context, you know, but that's... I think it was a good conversation.是的，这是一次很有意思的对话。有时候我担心这些回答被断章取义，但……我认为这是一次很好的对话。