Tim DoddHi, it's me, Tim Dodd, the Everyday Astronaut. Welcome back to Starbase Texas. This is of course where SpaceX is building their Starship vehicles. This is part one of two parts, and part one, we're gonna take you around the factory, see what's new, see the ships, see the boosters, see Starfactory from the inside for the first time, and just learn a lot along the way. So stay tuned for part two where we'll take you out to the launchpad and we'll also follow up with Elon after the launch and see how it went. So without further ado, let's go on another tour with Elon Musk.大家好，我是 Tim Dodd，就是那个 Everyday Astronaut。欢迎回到德克萨斯州 Starbase。这里当然是 SpaceX 建造 Starship 飞行器的地方。这是两集系列的第一集。第一集，我们会带你参观工厂，看看有什么新变化，看看飞船、助推器，还有第一次从内部看 Starfactory，顺便学到很多东西。所以请继续关注第二集，我们会带你去发射台，发射后还会跟进 Elon，看看进展如何。废话不多说，跟我们一起和 Elon Musk 再来一次参观之旅吧。
Tim DoddCool. So yeah, as we were saying, I mean, obviously a lot has changed in the last couple years. I mean, this all maybe in theory, I don't know, I mean...好的。所以是的，正如我们之前说的，我的意思是，显然这几年变化很大。我是说，这一切在理论上也许，我不知道，我的意思是……
Elon MuskLooks exactly the same. It hasn't changed a bit.看起来一模一样，一点都没变。
Tim DoddBut what once was tents is now a permanent-looking factory.但曾经是帐篷的地方，现在变成了看起来像永久性的工厂。
Elon MuskYeah. It used to be intense in tents, and now it's in a building. Yeah. So we've got this, I think, pretty good-looking rocket factory building that we've almost completed. Completed the exterior. This will enable us to have serialized production of the rocket, especially the ship, which would ultimately be made, you know, long term probably be making a thousand a year of the ship. So, a thousand a year. Well, you know, gotta build a city on Mars.对。以前强度（intense）体现在帐篷（tents）里，现在搬进了楼里。是的。所以我们有了这个，我觉得颜值还不错的火箭工厂建筑，外壳已经基本完工了。这将让我们能够实现火箭的批量化生产，尤其是飞船这部分——从长远来看，最终大概每年要生产一千艘飞船。就是说，一年一千艘。嗯，你知道，得在火星上建一座城市。
Tim DoddThat's insane to think about.想想就觉得太疯狂了。
Elon MuskYeah, I mean, we may not build a thousand a year right here, but I think this is capable of a hundred a year.对，我是说，也许我们不会在这里生产一千艘，但我觉得这里的产能能做到一年一百艘。
Tim DoddReally? Wow. It's only a ship every three days. And that's nothing. Well, it is funny, 'cause now, you know, if you think about it, even Falcon 9 these days, you're producing a second stage about every two days. And a few years ago, that would've been impossible. You know, no one would've imagined that they're building an upper stage.真的吗？哇。也就是三天一艘飞船而已。这算不了什么。不过这挺有趣的，因为你现在想想，就拿 Falcon 9 来说，你们现在大概每两天生产一个二级。而几年前，那根本是天方夜谭。没人能想象他们在生产一个上面级。
Elon MuskAnd this year we'll make almost 200 upper stages of Falcon. And next year, probably over 200.今年我们会生产接近 200 个 Falcon 的上面级。明年可能超过 200 个。
Tim DoddThat's a cadence of people, I don't think you can even imagine, you can't even fathom that kind of output like that. That's just crazy.那是一种连人们都很难想象、甚至根本无法想象的产能节奏，太疯狂了。
Elon MuskWell, Falcon 9 is actually a heavy-lift vehicle. So there's roughly 40,000 pounds to orbit, which in normal rocket language would be a heavy lift. Now Starship's gonna be able to do a hundred tons to orbit with Starship 2, maybe a little more than that with Starship 3, like at the 9-meter diameter. Essentially, when the nine-meter diameter is sort of fully stretched out to what ends up being from 120 meters total length to probably 140 or something like that.嗯，Falcon 9 实际上是一款重型运载火箭。入轨载荷大约 40,000 磅，用常规火箭术语来说就是重型运载。现在 Starship 2 能做到向轨道运送一百吨，Starship 3 可能还会多一点，9 米直径的。基本上，当这个 9 米直径的方案充分拉伸之后，总长度会从 120 米增加到大概 140 米左右。
Elon MuskThen it's a lot of optimizations and improvements — engine improvements, heatshield mass improvements, reducing the amount of propellant needed for landing — kind of basically doing all the things that we've somewhat done with the Falcon 9. And you get to a pretty efficient vehicle. I think we'll be able to do over 200 tons to a useful orbit with Starship.然后就是一大堆优化和改进——发动机改进、隔热层减重、减少着陆所需的推进剂——基本上就是做我们在 Falcon 9 上做过的那些事情。这样你就能得到一个效率很高的飞行器。我认为 Starship 最终能把 200 吨以上的载荷送入有用轨道。
Tim DoddThat's insane. So that's with full reusability.太疯狂了。所以这是全可重复使用的情况下？
Elon MuskThat's a full reusability, which isn't... So that's twice the Saturn V with full and rapid reusability. So the booster and the ship are coming back to the launch site.这是全可重复使用的，而且……这是完全快速可重复使用情况下，Saturn V 的两倍。也就是说助推器和飞船都回到发射场。
Tim DoddShould we take a look at what's going on in there? So, as far as, you know, we're seeing all this, you're talking about even version one maybe being able to do less than a hundred. But is version one really even gonna... I feel like version one in my head is just a... yeah.我们进去看看里面的情况怎么样？那么，就我们看到的这些，你说到了第一版可能承载量不足一百吨。但第一版真的会……我感觉第一版在我脑海里就是个……嗯，对。
Elon MuskVersion one is just to the point of — and really kind of Starship, we're version 1.6 or 7, I don't know. Right? It's like we're like many iterations through on version one.第一版就是——其实说到 Starship，我们大概已经是 1.6 版或 1.7 版了，我也说不准。对吧？就是说，我们已经在第一版的基础上迭代了很多次了。
Tim DoddYeah. And it's just like a canvas. It's a test experiment still at this phase. I don't think people, they see it and they don't understand that this is all still a giant test at this stage.对。而且它就像一块画布，在这个阶段还是一个测试实验。我觉得人们看着它但不理解，这一切在现阶段仍然是一个巨大的测试。
Elon MuskYeah. One way to look at technology is to look at it as like you're rendering an image in successive levels of detail. So the first layer of the image is very, very blurry and things are out of place. And then with the next pass, it gets a bit more defined and things kind of shift into place, and you do another pass and another pass, and eventually it's something that is refined and actually works.对。有一种看待技术的方式，就是把它想象成你在逐层渲染一张图像。图像的第一层非常非常模糊，东西都不在位置上。然后下一次处理，它变得稍微清晰一些，东西开始慢慢到位，你再做一次，再一次，最终它就成了一个精致、真正能用的东西。
Elon MuskBut we're in uncharted territory with Starship, so it's not like... nobody's ever made a fully reusable orbital rocket. And that's really the critical breakthrough necessary for life to become multi-planetary. For us to become a true spacefaring civilization, we have to achieve full and rapid reusability. So I call it rapidly reusable, reliable rockets.但我们在 Starship 上进入的是未知领域，所以并不是说……从来没有人造过全可重复使用的轨道火箭。而这确实是让生命成为多行星物种所必需的关键突破。要成为真正的航天文明，我们必须实现快速、完全的可重复使用。所以我把它叫做快速可重复使用可靠火箭。
Tim DoddReusable — RR squared, or R-R-R-R. Yeah. Pirate space.可重复使用——RR 的平方，或者 R-R-R-R。对。太空海盗。
Elon MuskPirates. There we go.海盗。就这个。
Elon MuskAnd the thing that people need to remember is, getting to orbit is solved. I mean, you guys have been getting to orbit for a long time. Getting to orbit at all was solved in the fifties, right. So I really don't think there's another point in another expendable rocket, in my opinion. Or at least I think the math clearly demonstrates that there is no point in an expendable rocket — you have to achieve reusability. We have reusability in cars, we have it in airplanes, we have it in bicycles.人们需要记住的是，进入轨道这件事已经解决了。我是说，你们进入轨道已经很长时间了。进入轨道这件事本身早在五十年代就解决了，对吧。所以我真的认为再造一个一次性火箭已经没有意义了，在我看来。或者至少我认为数学已经清楚地证明，一次性火箭是没有意义的——你必须实现可重复使用。汽车有可重复使用，飞机有，自行车有。
Tim DoddHorses, yeah.马，对。
Elon MuskIt's bizarre to not have reusability in any other form of transport. Boats — it would be insane to chuck a boat away after every trip. But this is how rockets have worked for the vast majority of time. In fact, SpaceX is still the only rocket that has any reusability, with Falcon 9. So with Falcon 9 we bring the boosters back, we fly them frequently, we bring the fairings back, we refly those. It's only the upper stage that is expended right now. It doesn't... Falcon 9 does not qualify as rapidly reusable, because most of the time the booster is landing on a ship in the ocean.在任何其他交通工具上不具备可重复使用性，这太奇怪了。船——每次旅行结束后就把船扔掉，那不是疯了吗？但火箭在绝大多数时间里就是这么运作的。实际上，SpaceX 仍然是唯一一家火箭具有任何可重复使用性的公司，就是 Falcon 9。所以 Falcon 9 我们把助推器带回来，频繁复飞，把整流罩也带回来，重复使用。现在唯一还在抛弃的是上面级。Falcon 9 不符合快速可重复使用的标准，因为大多数时候助推器是在海上的船上着陆的。
Tim DoddSo it takes a few days to get it back. Oh, but that's speeding up like crazy. I mean, the cadence out of the Cape is unbelievable.所以需要几天才能运回来。不过，这个速度已经在疯狂提升了。我是说，从卡纳维拉尔角的发射节奏就已经让人难以置信了。
Elon MuskYeah. We're trying to squeeze every like quarter of a knot that we can out of the drone ships.对。我们正在努力从无人船上榨取每一个四分之一节的速度。
Tim DoddIt seems that way.看来确实如此。
Elon MuskYeah. We're jacking up the power on the ships, streamlining them, increasing the power on the tugging vessels so we could just haul ass as quickly as possible.对。我们在给船增功率、优化流体线型、提升拖船的动力，这样就能尽可能快地全速跑。
Tim DoddWell, yeah. I think you just had your fastest turnaround just last week. It was something like, I don't remember the time, but it was something like two days or something. From catching back and then out to catch again was just, you know, insane. It used to take so much longer. Those are all those little things that people just aren't necessarily paying attention to that are continually improving.嗯，是的。我记得你们上周刚创了最快周转记录。具体时间我不记得了，好像是两天左右。从回收到再次出发去接，真的是，太疯狂了。以前要慢得多。这些都是大家不一定注意到的、却在持续改进的小细节。
Elon MuskNo, the SpaceX Falcon team is doing an incredible job of achieving fast-turnaround reusability given the architecture. Now that's still, however, a couple days to get a booster back, and then at least a few days to refurbish it for flight. It's still not rapid by aircraft or vehicle standards. Like, take cars, boats, planes — doing a trip every four days would not cut it in a car, or an aircraft.是的，SpaceX 的 Falcon 团队在这套构型下实现快速周转可重复使用这件事上做得非常出色。不过，就算这样，把助推器接回来还是要好几天，然后翻修再飞也至少需要几天。以飞机或车辆的标准来看，这仍然算不上快速。比如汽车、船、飞机——每四天才跑一趟，用在汽车或飞机上是完全不够的。
Elon MuskSo with Starship, the booster comes back to the launch site, is caught by the arms — this would be quite spectacular to see giant Mechazilla arms catching a rocket in midair. And then those arms put it back on the launch site. So you can have the booster back on the launch mount in... well, it's gonna come back and land in like five or six minutes. So then you can probably get it back on the launch site in — well, if you really push it, you probably get it back on the launch site in 10 minutes, or even five minutes. And then you can fill it up in half an hour. So you could be ready to go an hour later from the booster standpoint. And then if you've got ships lined up, you can drop another ship on, fill it with propellant. And in theory you could be launching every couple hours.而 Starship 的情况是，助推器返回发射场，被机械臂接住——这会很壮观，看到巨大的机械臂在空中接住火箭。然后机械臂把它放回发射台。所以助推器回到发射架上需要……嗯，它会在大概五六分钟内回来着陆。那么理论上，如果真的拼命赶，可能 10 分钟甚至 5 分钟就能把它放回发射台。然后半小时加注完成。从助推器的角度来说，一小时之后就可以再发射了。然后如果有飞船排队等着，再套一艘上去、加注推进剂。理论上每隔几小时就能发射一次。
Tim DoddIt's hard to imagine now, but it was hard to imagine where Falcon 9 is today. You know, 10 years ago no one would've imagined what Falcon 9 is doing now. So I think time will tell that you can just keep chipping away at all those little improvements. And so do you think you'll actually fly...?现在很难想象，但当年 Falcon 9 今天的状态同样很难想象。10 年前没有人能想到 Falcon 9 会做到今天这一切。所以我觉得时间会证明，你只要持续地在那些小改进上一点一点啃，就能实现。那你觉得你们真的会飞……？
Elon MuskYeah, Falcon 9 used to have reusability measured in months, then weeks, then days. But for Falcon 9, the architecture is limited. You really can't compress it down less than several days when you take the landing out to sea and then the necessary refurbishment of the booster that is required. So with Starship, we'll take it from days to hours.是的，Falcon 9 的可重复使用性曾经以月计，然后是以周计，然后是以天计。但 Falcon 9 的构型有局限，当你把着陆点放到海上，再加上助推器必要的翻修，实际上没办法压缩到几天以内。所以 Starship 要做的就是从以天计变成以小时计。
Tim DoddWow. Do you think? Yeah.哇。你这么认为？嗯。
Elon MuskAnd then, so then there's the ship has to go around the earth, and depending upon what orbit it has, it's gotta have a ground track that comes back over the launch site. So that could take several orbits, so the ship could take several hours, sometimes half a day or something like that to come back to re-align. So you'd want to have a lot more ships than boosters. So if you're really going for max launch rate, you probably want roughly, I dunno, five ships for every booster.然后，飞船还得绕地球转，取决于它的轨道，地面轨迹需要重新经过发射场。这可能需要好几圈，所以飞船可能要花几个小时，有时候大半天，才能重新对齐。所以你希望飞船的数量远多于助推器。如果你真的要追求最大发射率，大概每个助推器对应大约五艘飞船，我估计。
Tim DoddYeah. And that's what you guys are building, a pretty massive cadence here of ships and boosters already. Now do you think...?对。而那正是你们在建的，飞船和助推器的产量已经相当可观了。那你觉得……？
Elon MuskWell, I mean, yeah, it's pretty slow compared to what it will be. Like very slow. But we're also iterating the design. So each one is a little different, in some cases a lot different, from the last one.嗯，我是说，和将来会有的相比，现在确实相当慢了。非常慢。但我们同时也在迭代设计。所以每一艘都和上一艘有些不同，有时候差异还相当大。
Tim DoddAre any of these gonna be the V2 yet? Are we starting to get close to V2 hardware yet, or...?这些里面有没有会是 V2 的？我们快要接近 V2 硬件了吗，还是……？
Elon MuskJust this, the stretch version is basically V2. Well, I guess it depends on whether we call it V2 or don't call it V2. The slightly stretched version is V2, arguably. So you can see what we have here is a Starship with — I've seen the heat shield side and the non-heat-shield side. It's got the, what we call the Pez dispenser, for tossing out the next-generation Starlink satellites, the V3 satellites. So those will be very wide diameter, like sort of, I dunno, seven-meter diameter satellites. So, you know, 22 feet or something like that.就是这个，拉伸版本基本上就是 V2 了。嗯，我觉得这取决于我们叫不叫它 V2 吧。稍微拉伸的版本可以说是 V2。所以你可以看到这里有一艘 Starship——我看过隔热层那面和非隔热层那面。它有我们所说的 Pez 糖果分配器，用来抛射下一代 Starlink 卫星，也就是 V3 卫星。这些卫星直径会很大，大概七米直径左右，也就是大概 22 英尺左右。
Tim DoddSo are these actually gonna be like... are we hoping to see, after let's say this test goes well tomorrow, do you think the next one's actually gonna go for orbit and start deploying — testing out trying to deploy Starlink? Or where do you think we're in that whole mix? Like is that maybe a few more down the road to start actually deploying payloads into orbit?那这些真的会……我们希望在比如说明天这次测试顺利之后，你觉得下一次飞行真的会进入轨道并开始部署——测试尝试部署 Starlink？还是说在整个进度里，我们还需要再往后几次才能真正开始向轨道部署载荷？
Elon MuskWe'll see how this mission goes. I mean, this year is not about delivering satellites for Starship. It's all about ironing out the design question marks. So the major things that remain to be solved for Starship — the single biggest one is what does it take to get through the high heating of reentry? So you can see the heat shield that we have there. We have some, well, let's say, unsolved questions on the heat shield. A bunch of which we don't even know that they are questions.这要看这次任务的情况。我是说，今年 Starship 的目标不是投递卫星。全部都是关于解决设计上的未知问题。目前 Starship 还需要解决的几个关键问题——最大的一个就是：要经受住大气再入时的高热期需要做到什么？你可以看到我们有那套隔热层。我们有一些，呃，说得委婉一点，未解决的问题。其中很多我们甚至都不知道它们是问题。
Elon MuskAnd some we're aware of because there've been challenges in the past, like with space shuttle. The sort of the hinge area and the hinge gap, and sealing that hinge gap and not having hot gas just go flowing super fast through the interface there — well, at where the flap hinge is. 'Cause if you get hot gas flowing through rapidly, that'll cook anything, including the tiles. So you've got a hot gas seal at the forward and rear flap hinge. And so one of the key questions is, does that seal work? We think it'll work, but it may not work.还有一些我们是知道的，因为过去遇到过挑战，就像航天飞机经历的那样。铰链区域、铰链间隙，以及如何密封那个铰链间隙、防止高温气体以极高速度穿过那个界面——也就是襟翼铰链所在的位置。因为如果有高温气体快速流过，那会把任何东西都烤熟，包括隔热瓦。所以前后襟翼铰链处都有高温气体密封。其中一个关键问题就是：那个密封管不管用？我们认为会管用，但也可能不管用。
Elon MuskThen there are some questions of like, how well do the tiles stay on. There's a fundamental challenge here where the tiles are ceramics, they're very brittle, they're like a coffee cup or a dinner plate. So you've got essentially a whole bunch of dinner plates stuck to a steel surface. The steel surface is getting cryogenically cold 'cause of the propellants, so it's shrinking. So on ascent, the rocket is shrinking, it has shrunk. So you can't have the gaps and the tiles be too tight or they will just shatter against each other.还有一些问题，比如隔热瓦能不能贴牢。这里有一个根本性的挑战，隔热瓦是陶瓷，非常脆，就像咖啡杯或餐盘一样。所以你基本上是把一堆餐盘贴在一个钢铁表面上。这个钢铁表面因为推进剂会变得极其寒冷，所以它在收缩。在上升阶段，火箭在缩小，已经缩短了。所以隔热瓦之间的间隙不能太小，否则它们会互相撞碎。
Elon MuskThen when it's coming in for landing, you no longer have the cryogenic propellant in the main tanks and the tiles get very hot. So now they want to expand. So you've got a contracted inner surface and expanding tiles. And the thing is, you can't have a big tile gap because then the plasma will get in there and melt the primary structure behind it. So what's the right tile gap? And that's gonna vary depending upon where you are on the ship. So it's gonna be like, some parts of the ship have cryogenic propellants, some don't.然后当飞船再入大气层着陆时，主箱里已经没有低温推进剂了，隔热瓦变得非常热。这时候它们想要膨胀。所以你面对的是内层表面在收缩、隔热瓦在膨胀的局面。问题是，隔热瓦之间的间隙不能太大，否则等离子体会钻进去，把后面的主结构融化掉。那么合适的间隙是多少？这还会随着飞船不同部位而变化。因为飞船上有些部分有低温推进剂，有些没有。
Elon MuskThere's also the how well do the tiles attach — if we attach them and we accidentally break one. But it's hard to see, then, that that could be an issue. And we currently think we're probably not resilient to failure of, to loss of a tile in the hot sections of the ship that are the tank portion. The pressurized areas. So technically the nose will be pressurized too. So if the pressurized areas lose a tile and then you melt that area, that'll cause it to pop. So the ship will explode.还有隔热瓦怎么附着的问题——如果我们在安装时不小心弄碎了一块，但又很难看出来，这就可能成为隐患。目前我们认为，在飞船高热区域（也就是箱体段）如果某一块隔热瓦脱落，我们可能承受不住。加压区域都属于这种情况。从技术上讲，鼻锥也是加压的。所以如果加压区域失去一块隔热瓦，然后那里被烧穿，就会导致爆裂。也就是说飞船会爆炸。
Elon MuskSo now people have asked, why are there some missing tiles in the rear of the ship?所以大家问过，飞船尾部为什么有一些隔热瓦是缺的？
Tim DoddWell, like right now, flight four, you got I think three tiles missing right now.就是现在，第四次飞行，我记得现在大概缺了三块隔热瓦。
Elon MuskSo those are in the rear of the ship, which is an unpressurized region. So that's an unpressurized region where we think you can have a melt-through of the unpressurized region and it will not cause failure of the vehicle. Like you might have a little hole there or something, but it's not gonna pop the vehicle.那些是在飞船的后部，是非加压区域。所以那是非加压区域，我们认为那里即使被烧穿了，也不会导致飞行器失效。可能那里会有个小洞什么的，但不会让飞行器爆掉。
Tim DoddRight. So that's, you're literally doing it as like an A:B test almost of like, yeah, we see what happens if we're missing a tile.对。所以你们实际上是在做一个近乎 A/B 测试的事情，就是看看缺少一块隔热瓦会怎样。
Elon MuskYeah. What happens if you lose a tile? Now we do have plans for a secondary shield beneath the tiles that is much better than what we have right now. So right now we — and I can't say the details of it because it's like ITAR controlled, it's sort of secret. But the current material we use, we think is not resilient to a tile failure. We have a new design that we think is resilient to a tile failure.对。失去一块隔热瓦会发生什么？现在我们确实有计划，要在隔热瓦下面加一层次级防护罩，比现在的好很多。目前我们用的材料——我不能说具体细节，因为这受 ITAR 管控，算是机密。但我们认为现有材料在隔热瓦脱落的情况下是扛不住的。我们有一个新设计，我们认为能扛住隔热瓦脱落。
Tim DoddSo behind the underlying structure.所以是在底层结构后面。
Elon MuskYeah. And essentially it's got ablative. So if you lose the tile, you have to replace... you give your backup the ablative.对。它基本上有烧蚀材料。所以如果你失去一块隔热瓦，你就要更换……你把这个备用的烧蚀层用掉了。
Tim DoddRight. So you'd lose out on reusability because of the lost tile and the ablative, but at least it's intact.对。所以因为隔热瓦缺失和烧蚀材料用掉，你会损失可重复使用性，但至少飞行器还是完整的。
Elon MuskAnd you'd recover it, refurbish it and get it back out on the fleet.然后你把它回收、翻修，重新放回舰队。
Elon MuskCool. And especially for carrying people, which ultimately we expect Starship to carry — maybe a hundred people at a time to Mars, and also to the moon. Then it's gotta be super reliable. It's gotta have ideally no single point of failure.好的。尤其是对于载人飞行——我们最终预期 Starship 能运载人员，可能一次运一百人去火星，也去月球。那就必须要极其可靠，最好没有任何单点故障。
Tim DoddSo have you given up... a long time ago, you were talking about transpirational cooling or active regen and stuff. Did that just kind of didn't make the trade, or...?那你放弃……很早以前你提到过透射冷却或主动再生冷却之类的。那些是因为质量权衡没过关，还是……？
Elon MuskThe mass trade that we did, I think at this point, like it's four years ago or something like that. Yeah, maybe five. It seemed like at that time it would be at least twice as heavy as a ceramic heat shield. Now since then, the weight of our ceramic heat shield has grown. And then when you factor in the secondary shield, that's additional mass. So I don't know, it may not be that big of a difference between actively cooling a heat shield and having ceramic tiles.我们做那个质量权衡的时候，我觉得大概是四年前，也可能五年前了。当时看起来，主动冷却至少会比陶瓷隔热层重两倍。但从那以后，我们陶瓷隔热层的重量也增加了。再加上次级防护罩，还有额外的质量。所以我也说不准，主动冷却隔热层和陶瓷隔热瓦之间的差距可能没那么大了。
Tim DoddHave you seen what Stoke Space out in Washington is working on, where they have a — of course an aerospike's gonna come out of my mouth, 'cause for some reason aerospike comes out every time we talk about anything — but it's an aerospike, but the base plug is actually the active region heat shield. And as it comes back through the atmosphere, it's actually heating; they're using hydrogen to actively regenerate and cool the heat shield, and it just gets dumped out the nozzles basically as it's going. And that actually also gets some of the gaskets vented out through the middle. So you also have like a boundary layer there too of gaseous helium or hydrogen in the front. And it's being actively regen'd. I think it's a really cool concept and I was really impressed. It made me just think about active regen in a different way. And I thought that was pretty neat. But I know you guys had talked about the transpirational cooling years ago, so I didn't know if...你有没有关注过华盛顿州 Stoke Space 在做的东西——当然气塞喷管（aerospike）这个词一定会从我嘴里蹦出来，因为不管聊什么我都会提到气塞喷管——但它就是一个气塞喷管，底部塞子其实就是主动热防护区域。在穿越大气层时，它会加热；他们用氢来主动再生冷却隔热层，基本上在飞行过程中就从喷管排出去了。这还让一部分气体从中间排出，在前端形成一道气态氦或氢的边界层。整个过程都在被主动再生冷却。我觉得这个概念很酷，让我对主动再生冷却有了新的认识。我认为这挺厉害的。但我知道你们多年前也谈过透射冷却，所以我不知道……
Elon MuskYeah, I think it's probably correct that a ceramic heat shield is gonna do better than transpiration. There's also the question of like, if once you go to Mars and you're coming in hot, or you're coming back to earth, you're coming in. If you come back from Mars to earth, you're coming in very hot. It's not clear where the transpiration cooling could succeed there. It came up there.对，我认为陶瓷隔热层大概率会比透射冷却表现更好。还有一个问题，比如当你飞到火星再回来，或者从火星返回地球时，你进来的速度是非常快的。从火星回地球，进大气的速度极快。透射冷却在那种情况下能不能撑住，这是不清楚的。那里的条件摆在那里。
Tim DoddHere's my wacky dumb idea of the day: on the inside of the tank, if you had like a thermal camera, you have like a fire hose with cryogenic coolant — if there's a hot, a burn-through, just spray it down from the inside. I don't know, I'll always be happy to throw out the dumb ideas. Especially when you have header tanks there that are filled with the cryo, all pressurized ready to go. You know, all it's gonna take is one heat shield tile missing potentially and you could have a bad day.这是我今天要说的奇葩蠢主意：在箱体内侧，如果有一个热成像摄像头，再配一根装有低温冷却剂的消防水管——一旦出现烧穿，直接从内部喷下去。我不知道，我总是很乐意抛出一些蠢主意。尤其是里面还有装满低温推进剂、加压就绪的头部箱。你知道，也许就是缺一块隔热瓦就能酿成灾难。
Elon MuskThere's a lot of ways to solve the problem. So what matters is that it is solved. Even though there are many ways to achieve full reusability, what matters is that it is achieved.解决这个问题的方法有很多。重要的是它能被解决。即便实现完全可重复使用的路径有很多，重要的是它被实现了。
Tim DoddYeah. A hundred percent.是的，百分之百。
Elon MuskAnd then once you're sort of over the hump of full reusability, where the one system is slightly better than the other is a secondary concern, right?一旦你翻过了完全可重复使用这道坎，哪个方案比另一个稍微好一点，那已经是次要问题了，对吧？
Tim DoddYeah. It's tomato, tomato at that point. Should we keep moving along here? Yeah. So when, with flight three, when it broke up, that was mostly just because obviously it couldn't maintain orientation, so it didn't even have a chance of having the heatshield.对，到那时候都是半斤八两。我们要继续往前走吗？好。那么，第三次飞行的时候飞船解体，主要就是因为没法保持姿态，所以隔热层根本没有机会发挥作用。
Elon MuskOh yeah. You would've noticed that the engines — there was a lot of like fire coming from the engines area. That's not good, on reentry.哦对，你应该注意到发动机区域有大量火焰窜出来。那在再入时可不是好兆头。
Tim DoddRight. Definitely not when the engines aren't on. Yeah.对。发动机没有开着的时候确实不该这样。是的。
Elon MuskSo this is — you can see we're just finishing, we're trying to get the shell completed as quickly as possible, but we still have a lot of work to do on the interior of the factory. But this will dramatically improve the production of the rocket, as being able to move from one station to another, which is a linear adjacent flow.所以这里——你可以看到，我们正在加紧完工，尽快把外壳封好，但工厂内部还有很多工作要做。不过这将大幅提升火箭的生产效率，能够从一个工位移动到下一个工位，也就是线性相邻流动生产。
Tim DoddHmm. I don't really know what that means, but...嗯。我不太明白这是什么意思，但……
Elon MuskWell, the thing that really matters — you know, people talk about the moving production line of sort of Henry Ford and the automobiles. What actually matters is linear adjacent flow, as opposed to a production line that moves.嗯，真正重要的是——人们都爱谈 Henry Ford 和汽车的流水线生产。但真正重要的是线性相邻流动，而不是流水线本身在移动。
Tim DoddHmm. So...嗯。所以……
Elon MuskSo it's simple. One thing leads, one step leads to another, and things move along in a cadence.很简单。一件事引出下一件事，一步接着一步，按照节拍往前推进。
Tim DoddAnd you don't have to have the physical...而且你不需要有实体的……
Elon MuskIt doesn't matter whether there's a conveyor belt or not. That's the secondary concern.有没有传送带无所谓。那是次要问题。
Tim DoddThat's the second. Yeah, got it.那是次要的。明白了。
Elon MuskIt doesn't matter. It just matters that there's a tempo. So every station has roughly the same amount of work time, and things move from one station to the next station, and the specialization of labor at each station. So these are the principles that actually matter.无所谓。重要的是要有节拍。每个工位的工作时间大致相同，东西从一个工位流到下一个工位，每个工位专注于特定的工作。这才是真正重要的原则。
Tim DoddAnd that's what you guys kind of solved by doing the tents first. 'Cause you could just willy-nilly rearrange things, see how things were actually falling, see what order things were going in. But...而你们先用帐篷的方式基本上解决了这个问题。因为你们可以随意调整布局，看看实际上是怎么流动的，看看东西是以什么顺序进行的。但是……
Elon MuskThe tents were very inefficient once you know what you wanna build.一旦你知道要建什么，帐篷就非常低效了。
Tim DoddYep. Yeah. So it was your five-step thing of don't get too far along in the automation before you...是的。所以这正是你的五步法——在摸清楚之前不要过早推进自动化……
Elon MuskYeah. You don't know what you're gonna build. It's simple to convey just how much — you know, this is, we don't even know what the rocket would look like.对。你还不知道要造什么。很难形容那时候有多茫然——我们当时连火箭长什么样都不知道。
Tim DoddYeah. So, and in some senses you still don't necessarily know — it's still changing at this point.对。从某种意义上说，你们现在也还不完全确定——现在仍然在变。
Elon MuskAt this point we're confident that this architecture is at least one of the solutions. Let's not say there couldn't be other solutions like the one you talked about, but that this will work. It's just a question of ironing out the bugs and improving the performance of everything from the engines to the avionics to the primary structure, the heat shield, everything. But it will work.现在我们有把握的是，这套架构至少是解决方案之一。先不说会不会有你提到的那种其他解决方案，但这套方案是能行的。只是需要把 bug 一一修掉、从发动机到航电、从主结构到隔热层的方方面面都不断提升性能。但它是能做到的。
Elon MuskI think I was beginning to say that the most important, the toughest remaining problem is a reusable orbital heat shield. Nobody's ever made a reusable orbital heat shield. So the space shuttle is the closest. But that took I think something like nine months and thousands of people to refurbish. So it's difficult to call — can I call something that requires so much work to refurbish as truly reusable? Certainly not rapid. So for the first time ever, there needs to be a rapidly reusable orbital heat shield, which no one has ever done. So it's a hard problem. So that's why I'd say that's the number one biggest remaining problem.我想说，目前最重要、也是最棘手的遗留问题，是可重复使用的轨道隔热层。从来没有人造过可重复使用的轨道隔热层。航天飞机是最接近的。但我记得那需要大约九个月、数千人来进行翻修。很难把需要如此繁重翻修工作的东西称为真正意义上的可重复使用，当然更谈不上快速。所以史上第一次，我们需要一个快速可重复使用的轨道隔热层，这是前所未有的。这是个硬问题。所以我说，这是目前最大的一个未解决问题。
Elon MuskAnd the goal of this flight, and really the flights for the rest of this year, is get through the high heating. So the heat shield survives. And then the ship is still operational and is able to steer to a specific location and do a landing burn in the ocean. And then the booster — we wanted to be able to, for this flight, to come back and do a landing burn at a specific location.这次飞行的目标，以及今年剩余飞行的目标，就是撑过高热段。让隔热层存活下来，飞船仍保持完全可工作状态，能自主导航到特定位置，并在海洋上完成着陆点火，然后提前预演塔架接住的动作。对于助推器——我们希望在这次飞行中，它能返回并在特定位置完成着陆点火。
Tim DoddDo we know how far out is that gonna be? Do you know?那你知道位置大概多远吗？
Elon MuskIt's pretty far out, but I think we're pretty close to that. If we don't solve it on this flight, I think we'll solve it in the next two or three flights. So just having the booster do the hot staging, come back, do a boost-back, steer correctly to a precise location, and do a landing burn, and essentially do a simulated tower catch.离得挺远的，但我认为我们已经很接近了。如果这次飞行没解决，我觉得接下来两三次飞行就能解决。就是让助推器完成热分离，返回，做回推减速，精确导航到特定位置，完成着陆点火，基本上模拟一次塔架接住。
Tim DoddSo will the tower actually...?那塔架真的会……？
Elon MuskNo. It's just a — the rocket will think it's... not trying to get caught by the tower.不，就是——火箭会认为它……并不是真的要被塔架接住。
Tim DoddAt least... I thought it would be kind of cool if the tower mimicked it, you know, out here to make sure. Because I even wonder, like, how do we know the tower's gonna be okay? You know, like after a launch like that, to be able to... Well...至少……我觉得如果塔架能在这里模拟一下那个动作会挺酷的，只是确认一下。因为我甚至在想，我们怎么知道塔架没问题？就是说，经历了这样的发射之后，它能不能……嗯……
Elon MuskWe can operate the tower after the launch so we can tell if there's any damage. But yeah, if this launch goes perfectly we'll have the booster do a boost-back and a controlled aero-controlled descent to a specific location, initiate landing burn, and be caught by an imaginary tower. And then the ship, if things go perfectly — which probably won't — it'll get through high heating, it will still be fully operational, it will control itself to a specific location in the ocean, and then initiate a landing burn and also pretend as to getting caught by tower.发射之后我们可以操作塔架，看看有没有损坏。不过，如果这次发射完美的话，助推器会做回推减速、气动控制下降到特定位置，启动着陆点火，被一个想象中的塔架接住。然后飞船，如果一切完美的话——大概率不会那么完美——它会顺利通过高热段，仍然完全可工作，自主导航到海洋中的特定位置，启动着陆点火，同样假装被塔架接住。
Tim DoddWow.哇。
Elon MuskNow I think we've got maybe a 50/50 chance of the heat shield working.现在我觉得隔热层能成功的概率大概是 50/50。
Tim DoddThat's decent.这已经不错了。
Elon MuskYeah. Like it's a high uncertainty, but like roughly 50/50. But if not on this flight, then in the next two or three flights, I think we'll solve that.对。不确定性很高，大概 50/50 吧。但如果这次没解决，我认为接下来两三次飞行就能解决。
Tim DoddWell, let's kind of head over here. You guys did make a decent amount of changes to hopefully ensure reentry's better this time. Like you added some new roll thrusters and a few things like that.好，我们去那边看看吧。你们这次确实做了不少改动，希望再入表现能更好，比如加了新的滚转推力器之类的。
Elon MuskWell, yeah.对，是的。
Tim DoddWhat happened there, that the roll thrusters got — because they got clogged, it sounds like? Don't tell me that was the old conversation we had of hot gas thrusters and all that stuff. Or was it... but still, I'm still confused, 'cause...上次那个，滚转推力器是怎么回事——因为听起来它们被堵住了？别告诉我那又是我们之前聊过的热气推力器的老问题。还是说……但我还是有点迷糊，因为……
Elon MuskThey got ice in the valves.阀门里进了冰。
Tim DoddOkay. In the valves.好的，是在阀门里。
Elon MuskNot necessarily, or somewhere along the stream. They got clogged by ice. We're not sure exactly how. But water ice will get into the oxygen side; there's a small amount. So since the location that we're tapping off the engine is not pure O2, it's got a little bit of water ice.不一定在阀门里，或者说是在管路某处。被冰堵住了。具体怎么进去的我们还不完全清楚。但水冰会进入氧化剂侧，有少量。因为我们从发动机引气的位置并不是纯 O2，里面有少量水冰。
Tim DoddWhy is that?为什么会这样？
Elon MuskIt's ox-rich gas.是富氧气体。
Tim DoddIt is ox. So is it coming off the actual exhaust or the turbine side? Really?是富氧的。那是来自实际排气还是涡轮侧？真的？
Tim DoddSo wouldn't it have... wouldn't it even have a little bit of... it's ox-rich gas, but it's...那不会有一点……它是富氧气体，但是……
Elon MuskYeah, no, it's got burnt fuel.对，里面有已燃烧的燃料成分。
Tim DoddYes. Wouldn't it have a little bit of CO2 in it too then? And can that turn into an ice? Do you freeze CO2 with that temperature? 'Cause I think, yeah...是的。那里面不是也会有一点 CO2 吗？那个温度下 CO2 会结冰吗？因为我觉得……
Elon MuskWell anyway, it's got stuff that can turn solid at cryogenic temperatures, the thing that's relevant.总之，里面有在低温环境下会变成固体的东西，这才是关键。
Tim DoddYeah. Ice, whether it be water ice or CO2 ice or whatever.对，冰，不管是水冰还是 CO2 冰还是别的什么。
Elon MuskYeah. And it's solid stuff that does that. Blocks things.对。会变成固体，就会堵住东西。
Tim DoddBlocks things.堵住东西。
Elon MuskBlocks things. So we've improved the sort of ice strainers or the ice catchers. We improved the valves. And something I think we'll do in the future is move to, for critical valves, series-parallel valves. So any one valve failure does not, no matter what happens, take out the ability of the ship to orient itself correctly.堵住东西。所以我们改进了过滤冰的过滤器或者说冰捕捉装置，改进了阀门。我认为我们将来会做的一件事，是对关键阀门采用串并联阀门组合。这样任何单个阀门失效，无论发生什么，都不会导致飞船失去正确定向的能力。
Tim DoddSo are you avoiding doing like a more traditional heat exchanger, like around Raptor? You know, like I think Merlin probably does that, where it has heat exchangers to heat up to be able to drive stuff. The helium. Yeah. I'm just curious. I've never heard of an engine using like already-combusted to be able to be the ullage gas, you know, off of the preburner. That's pretty unusual I think, at least, I don't know.那你们是不是刻意避开了像 Raptor 外面绕一圈热交换器那种更传统的方案？就像我觉得 Merlin 大概就是那样做的，用热交换器加热来驱动推进剂增压的，用氦气那种。我只是好奇，我从来没听说过一台发动机用已燃烧的气体作为预燃室引出来的增压气源。这应该挺不寻常的，至少我觉得，不知道是不是。
Elon MuskYeah. Well, our rocket is autogenously pressurized. So we're pressurizing the fuel side with gaseous fuel, and the oxidizer with mostly gaseous oxygen. Now in the case of autogenously pressurized, we have to create the gas. We're not merely warming up a gas. We have to produce the gas.对。我们的火箭是自增压的。也就是说燃料侧用气态燃料增压，氧化剂侧主要用气态氧增压。自增压的情况下，我们必须产生这个气体，而不只是把气体加热一下。我们得制造出这个气体。
Tim DoddOh, interesting. Is that how the shuttle did it too then? 'Cause the shuttle ran on the RS-25's, had autogenous pressurization on the hydrogen side. Well, I guess I don't know if it's on both.哦，有意思。航天飞机也是这样做的吗？因为航天飞机用的是 RS-25，氢气侧是自增压的。不过我不知道两侧是不是都这样。
Elon MuskWas it on both? I don't know. I think it was at least on the hydrogen side. So maybe on both. But when you have autogenous pressurization, you've gotta produce the gas. You're not just heating it up. So there's a lot more mass you better come up with.两侧都是吗？我不知道，我觉得至少氢气侧是。可能两侧都是。但如果你用自增压，你就得产生气体，而不只是加热。所以质量消耗要大得多。
Tim DoddLiterally.字面意义上的"产生"。
Elon MuskIt actually affects our max power, especially on the fuel side. So the fuel pump has to work — well, both pumps have to work harder, but the fuel pump especially is a limiting factor. Like if we turned off autogenous pressurization on the fuel side, we'd actually be able to get more power out of the fuel pump.这实际上影响了我们的最大功率，尤其是燃料侧。所以燃料泵必须做更多工作——两个泵都要做更多工作，但燃料泵尤其是一个限制因素。比如，如果我们关掉燃料侧的自增压，实际上燃料泵能输出更多功率。
Tim DoddOh yeah. 'Cause you're having to drive all that.哦对，因为你得驱动那部分。
Elon MuskYeah. You've got a gas that you're bleeding mass flow from the engine.对。你在从发动机引走质量流量，用来产生气体。
Tim DoddFrom the engine. Yeah.从发动机引。是的。
Elon MuskYeah. And there's quite a lot of work in taking a cryogenic liquid and heating it up to be a hot gas. So you're a phase transition and that big temperature delta. So it's actually a lot of work to produce the hot gas from a cryogenic liquid.对。把低温液体升温变成高温气体，这需要做大量的功。要经过相变，还要跨越那么大的温差。所以从低温液体制造出热气体，其实要做相当多的功。
Tim DoddThat's crazy. So can we kind of step in here and see all the boosters? This is crazy. Is that what also was the blockage of the LOx tank on the booster too then? Similar ice buildup, blockage? Or was it on flight three the Raptors were shutting down during boost. Boost-back had an ice buildup. Is it a similar thing to that?太疯狂了。我们可以进去看看所有的助推器吗？这太疯狂了。那么，飞行三中助推器 LOx 箱被堵住，也是类似的结冰堵塞吗？还是说那次飞行中 Raptor 在回推段关机是类似的问题？是类似的事情吗？
Elon MuskSorry, it's hard to hear you.抱歉，有点听不清你说的。
Tim DoddYeah. Is that what caused the booster to shut down on flight three, with the ice buildup? Was it a similar type of thing? Like an autogenous pressurization issue that clogged a few of the engines?第三次飞行中，助推器关机是因为结冰吗？是不是类似的自增压堵塞问题，导致几台发动机熄火了？
Elon MuskYeah. We didn't have enough pressure to start the engines.对。发动机启动所需的压力不够。
Tim DoddOkay.好的。
Elon MuskSo we were low-pressure start. The full answer is quite complicated, but arguably we could have started with lower pressure, or we didn't need to start all the engines anyways. This time we expect to have a lot more pressure, and we are able to start at lower pressure, and we don't need to have all the engines fire. Hopefully.所以我们是低压启动。完整的原因相当复杂，但从某种角度说，我们可以在更低压力下启动，或者我们也不需要所有发动机都启动。这次我们预期压力会充足得多，而且我们能在更低压力下启动，也不需要所有发动机都点火。希望如此。
Tim DoddGeez, this is crazy. Wow. The scale is just almost impossible to imagine.天哪，这太疯狂了。哇。这个规模简直让人难以想象。
Elon MuskYeah, three boosters.对，三个助推器。
Tim DoddWow. That's just insane. This looks so cool.哇。太疯狂了，看起来太酷了。
Elon MuskDang. Lot of engines.哇。好多发动机。
Tim DoddYeah. It's an insane amount of engines. I mean, right here we're looking at what, 99 engines for these three vehicles.对。发动机数量简直惊人。我是说，光这里我们就能看到三辆飞行器的 99 台发动机。
Elon MuskNine, nine Raptors on a wall.墙上挂着 99 台 Raptor。
Tim Dodd99 engines and a ship ain't one. That's absolutely insane. The scale of these things, it's just hard to fathom. Wow. So are you guys trying to move down to three grid fins, is that right? From the four? Is that...?99 台发动机，飞船还没算。这绝对是疯狂的。这些东西的规模，真的很难想象。哇。那你们打算换成三个栅格翼吗，从四个？是这样的打算吗……？
Elon MuskIt's sort of high priority. It's a mass optimization. You definitely only need three. And I think technically you could do it with two if you're willing to oscillate.这算是较高优先级的事情。是一个质量优化。三个绝对够用。理论上如果你愿意接受振荡，两个也可以。
Tim DoddYeah. Like turn for yaw, then roll again for pitch.对，就是偏航时转一转，再回来俯仰。
Elon MuskThat's definitely — you're asking for a bit of trouble if you just have two grid fins. But it is technically possible. The three, for sure. But that's a fairly minor optimization.那样确实——只用两个栅格翼是在找麻烦。不过技术上是可行的。三个是没问题的。不过这是个相当次要的优化。
Tim DoddWith the cowbell diverter things, you know, the ullage gas thrusters or whatever, I need to clear something up for myself because I'm getting confused. So cold gas thruster, we'd say, would be like a nitrogen thruster where it's just literally compressed nitrogen goes out of a nozzle.说到那个牛铃形偏流器，或者什么增压气推力器，我得帮自己理清楚一件事，因为我有点搞混了。冷气推力器，我们说的是，就比如氮气推力器，纯粹是压缩氮气从喷管喷出来那种。
Elon MuskCold gas is room-temperature gas usually.冷气通常是室温的气体。
Tim DoddIs room temperature. And then would we consider that almost like a warm gas thruster?是室温的。那我们会把这个近似当成温气推力器吗？
Elon MuskYeah. Warm gas thruster.对，温气推力器。
Tim DoddAnd then like a hot gas would be where it's a reaction. Probably like a bipropellant thruster still.然后热气的话就是有化学反应的那种，大概是双组元推力器那种。
Elon MuskFor both the booster and the ship, you don't really need much control. The attitude control needed is small. So you just can't have a leaky valve or a stuck valve.对于助推器和飞船来说，你其实不需要太多控制力。所需的姿态控制量是很小的。所以只要阀门不漏、不卡死就行了。
Tim DoddYeah. That seems — this is like the third time we've...对。这好像是我们第三次……
Elon MuskFalcon 9's is all cold gas.Falcon 9 用的全是冷气。
Tim DoddWhat is...?是什么……？
Elon MuskFalcon 9's all cold gas. And we've done, I think, six starts. So it's cold gas that has been maintaining propellant settling and attitude control for, you know, 12 hours.Falcon 9 全是冷气。我们做过，我想大概六次启动吧。所以是冷气一直在维持推进剂沉降和姿态控制，持续了，嗯，12 小时。
Tim DoddYeah. So, and you have a lot of it on tap. So that's — I don't know why that's still a hard one for me to fathom. Even though we've talked, this is the third time now.对，而且储量很充裕。所以——我不知道为什么这个对我来说还是难以理解。尽管我们已经聊过，这是第三次了。
Elon MuskNow it's got a lot of hot gas. Or warm gas, especially when it's empty. It's all warm gas.现在它有很多热气，或者说温气，尤其是推进剂耗尽之后。全是温气了。
Elon MuskThe delta-V needed is tiny. So very tiny thrusters are needed.需要的 delta-V 非常小。所以只需要非常小的推力器。
Tim DoddSo how much do you feel like, after you fly, how much is it like, oh God, we have to change all of these? Like is it literally you find something on one and then you're immediately having to make changes on all these things? Like everything that's in production?那你感觉每次飞完之后，有多少东西需要改？就像，真的是发现一个问题就要立刻对所有正在生产中的飞行器做修改吗？对，所有生产中的东西都要改？
Elon MuskYou're just learning lessons. There's hundreds of learning changes that actually take place. Not a few — hundreds. If you go to a detail level, there might be thousands of changes that happen.你就是在汲取教训。实际发生的改动有几百项。不是几项——是几百项。如果细化到细节层面，可能有几千项改动。
Tim DoddEspecially when you get software involved. I'm sure it's...尤其是涉及到软件之后，我相信……
Elon MuskSoftware for sure. I'm just talking hardware. If you just look, the hardware changes across the ship and the booster and the engines, it's thousands of changes between each flight. But many of them are very small. But a very small change could be a big deal.软件肯定是。我只是在说硬件。光是飞船、助推器和发动机上的硬件改动，每次飞行之间就有几千项变动。很多都很微小，但一个很微小的改动可能是大事。
Tim DoddImagine how long it'd take a traditional aerospace company that had a rocket they're working on to make a thousand changes between flights and then fly it two months later. I mean, that's what we're doing here. You're barely over two months from the last flight and the vehicle's had over a thousand changes.想象一下，如果一家传统航天公司在他们的火箭上做一千项改动，然后两个月后就飞，那要花多长时间。我是说，我们现在做的就是这个。距离上次飞行才刚刚过了两个多月，这架飞行器已经有超过一千项改动了。
Elon MuskEasily. Over a thousand, several thousand probably.轻松超过一千项，大概有好几千项吧。
Tim DoddSo that's insane. Like, you said a bunch of 'em are little changes, but say, is it different in a way that could have an effect on the rocket? Yeah. That's probably several thousand. And do you feel like, for now, are you generally kind of overbuilding them to just try to get through the point of being able to prove the heat shields, prove all the stuff, and then eventually you work on mass?太疯狂了。你说很多是小改动，但假设，是否有可能影响到火箭的那种改动？对，大概有几千项。那你们现在的感觉是，为了能先把隔热层、所有东西都验证通过，暂时先过度堆料，然后再慢慢减重？
Elon MuskYeah. We're trying to answer the questions that I mentioned. The biggest question being, what does it take to get through max heating with a reusable heat shield? Then being able to have the booster come back and be caught by the tower. And have the ship also come back and be caught by the tower. So those are the three very big things that need to happen.对。我们在回答我提到的那些问题。最大的问题是：一个可重复使用的隔热层要经受最大加热究竟需要什么？然后让助推器能够回来并被塔架接住。还有让飞船也能回来并被塔架接住。这就是需要发生的三件大事。
Tim DoddAnd that's in your mind when you're launching these, including like flight 1, 2, 3 — those are the questions. Like those flights are just to answer...而这就是你发射这些飞行器时脑子里想的，包括第一次、第二次、第三次飞行——那些飞行就是为了回答……
Elon MuskFull reusability.完全可重复使用。
Tim DoddSee, I think people just don't understand that you're not looking at trying to get out there and launch a satellite tomorrow. You're trying to answer the questions.你看，我觉得人们就是不理解，你们不是想着明天就去发射一颗卫星。你们是在回答这些问题。
Elon MuskThe payload for all the flights this year is data, just to learn things. So it's design refinement, to understand what actually works, what doesn't work. Some things sometimes work, which can throw you off 'cause it worked once, but doesn't work again because of the combination of factors isn't the same. So the first things you'll find are like fundamental errors of design where success was not one of the possible outcomes. Then in some cases it's kind of like Russian roulette — success is sometimes possible, but once in a while you blow yourself up. So that's gonna require a lot of flights to figure out those, like the one-in-10 failure, the one-in-a-hundred failure, that kind of thing. There'll be a whole bunch of things like that.今年所有飞行的载荷就是数据，就是为了学东西。设计精炼，弄清楚什么真的管用、什么不管用。有时候某件事偶尔能成功，这反而会把你带偏，因为它成功过一次，但之后不再成功，是因为影响因素的组合不一样了。你首先会发现的是根本性的设计错误，那种成功根本不可能是结果之一的。然后有些情况就像俄罗斯轮盘赌——成功有时是可能的，但偶尔你会把自己炸了。要弄清楚那些十分之一概率的失效、百分之一概率的失效之类的东西，需要大量的飞行次数。会有一大堆这种情况。
Tim DoddWell, kind of even like the SN stuff, when 8 was darn close to landing, 9 was almost a reversion feeling, 10 was better, 11 was worse. Like there's a little bit of a ping-pong as things were kind of being tried and tested. And you're still kind of in that phase, even at this scale. I just don't think people are used to that, you know?嗯，有点像当初 SN 系列那时候，SN8 非常接近着陆，SN9 感觉像是退步，SN10 又更好，SN11 更差。事情被尝试和测试的过程中有一点乒乓效应。你们现在在这个规模上仍然处于那个阶段。我只是觉得人们不习惯这个，你知道？
Elon MuskYeah. A lot of those early tests were also just about us learning how to work with stainless steel as the primary structural element, and working with liquid methane, and with a full-flow staged combustion engine as the engine. So a lot of what people saw was the flight — did it land or not land — but we were just trying to figure out how do we work with steel, and how do we work with methane as a fuel and a new engine architecture.对。那些早期测试，很多也是关于我们学习如何使用不锈钢作为主要结构材料，如何使用液态甲烷，以及以全流量分级燃烧循环发动机作为发动机。所以人们看到的是飞行结果——有没有着陆——但我们当时只是在搞清楚如何使用钢、如何用甲烷作为燃料，以及一种新的发动机架构。
Tim DoddAnd a totally new engine architecture.以及一个全新的发动机架构。
Elon MuskAnd new flaps. Like things that are just new and novel.还有新的襟翼。就是那些全新的、新颖的东西。
Tim DoddDo the flaps...?那个襟翼……？
Elon MuskYeah. You have to actuate the flaps. You need very powerful actuators for the flaps. 'Cause there's a lot of force. It's like an airplane moving its wings.对，你需要驱动襟翼。需要非常强劲的执行器来驱动襟翼，因为受力很大。就像飞机在移动它的机翼一样。
Tim DoddRight, right.对，对。
Elon MuskThese are very powerful actuators that are needed.需要的是非常强劲的执行器。
Tim DoddYeah, absolutely.对，绝对是。
Elon MuskSo, and all of the engine-to-vehicle interactions are very complicated. You don't really see those on the test stand. When you're firing the engines on the test stand, you don't get the engine-to-vehicle interactions. And then you've got different engine-vehicle interactions in flight than you do on the ground.所以，发动机与飞行器之间的相互作用非常复杂。在试车台上你根本看不到这些。在试车台上点火发动机，你看不到发动机与飞行器的相互作用。而且飞行中的发动机与飞行器相互作用和地面上的完全不同。
Tim DoddYeah, a hundred percent. Especially when you're changing orientation of a vehicle. And different G-force and zero G, all the things.对，百分之百。尤其是当飞行器在改变姿态的时候，不同的 G 力、失重，所有这些。
Elon MuskThere's no test stand that can test a rocket at 17,000 miles an hour doing six Gs in every different orientation. It's not possible.没有任何试车台能在各种姿态下以 17,000 英里每小时的速度承受 6 G 的过载来测试一枚火箭，这根本不可能。
Tim DoddExactly. So you have to fly it.正是。所以你只能飞它。
Elon MuskYeah. You do as much as you can on the ground, then you gotta fly it. You try to figure things out in simulation, but a lot of things are not gonna be included in the simulation. So it'll work in sim, but not in reality.对。你在地面上能做多少就做多少，然后就得飞了。你试着在仿真中搞清楚，但很多东西不会包含在仿真里。所以仿真里能跑通，现实中却不行。
Tim DoddExactly. It's crazy. Shall we keep moving?正是。太疯狂了。我们继续走？
Elon MuskYeah, sure.好，走吧。
SpaceX crew memberOver here that way? Yes sir. We are just about to de-rig from the crane.往那边走？好的，先生。我们马上要从吊车上脱钩了。
Tim DoddRight on. Geez. Wow.太好了。天哪，哇。
SpaceX crew memberAre we good down there? Yep.下面准备好了吗？准备好了。
Elon MuskAs you can see, the Raptor is a lot cleaner than it used to be. It looks like there's less stuff.你可以看到，Raptor 比以前干净多了。看起来东西少了很多。
Tim DoddYeah, that already. But these are still not like — we're not to V3 here yet, right?对，确实。但这些还不是——我们还没到 V3 对吧？
Elon MuskNo, no.不，不是。
Tim DoddIs the V3 the same thing as like the LEET (733T) engine? Are those...?V3 和那个 LEET（733T）发动机是一回事吗？那些……？
Elon MuskSort of. The LEET engine, I think we will do that at some point, but that's really a total tear-up. It looks like the LEET engine, but it's way more expensive because it still has printed parts, for example. But the next-gen Raptor engine needs no heat shield.差不多吧。LEET 发动机我认为我们某个时候会做，但那其实是一次彻底的翻新重来。它看起来像 LEET 发动机，但实际上成本更高，因为它仍然有打印件，比如。但下一代 Raptor 发动机不需要隔热罩。
Tim DoddRight.对。
Elon MuskAnd because it's exposed, it has to have cooling. So there's integral cooling circuits throughout all the parts. So it looks very simple on the outside, but it's complicated on the inside.而因为它是暴露在外的，它必须有冷却。所以整个零件里都集成了冷却回路。所以它外观非常简洁，但内部很复杂。
Tim DoddLike even all throughout the preburner and the gas manifolds and everything.就连预燃室、气体歧管里面全都是。
Elon MuskAll that stuff you see stuck on the side disappears.所有你看到贴在侧面的那些东西都消失了。
Tim DoddWow. And that's actually being worked on now already? That's already...?哇。这现在已经在研发中了？已经……？
Elon MuskYeah. We have a design that works. It looks like the engine isn't complete.对。我们有一个已经跑通的设计。看起来发动机好像没完工一样。
Tim DoddWell yeah, you had that render on that presentation, it just looked literally like — it looks like it's missing parts, a mock-up. Yeah.对，你在那个发布会上展示的那个渲染图，看起来真的就像——看起来像少了零件，像个模型。对。
Elon MuskBut it's actually just the secondary circuits and integral cooling are part of each part. So if you have a secondary cooling circuit, you run the secondary cooling circuit, or secondary flow circuit, through the various parts. And we also eliminate a whole bunch of bolted and welded joints. So especially the bolted joints, you really wanna get rid of those.但实际上只是因为次级回路和集成冷却都是每个零件的一部分了。如果你有一个次级冷却回路，你就把次级冷却回路，或者次级流动回路，贯通到各个零件里。我们也消除了大量螺栓连接和焊接接头。尤其是螺栓连接，你真的很想把那些去掉。
Tim DoddYeah.对。
Elon MuskYou know, bolts and flanges and seals are hell, especially if they're hot. So the next-gen Raptor engine is actually a little difficult to service because there are parts that don't have a flange anymore, it's just welded shut.你知道，螺栓、法兰和密封件是地狱，尤其在高温状态下。所以下一代 Raptor 发动机实际上有点难以维修，因为有些零件不再有法兰了，直接焊死了。
Tim DoddRight, right. Yeah. So you're just hoping to be able to get the design up to be so reliable, hopefully, that you just don't need to service it.对，对。所以你就是希望把设计做到足够可靠，希望根本不需要去维修它。
Elon MuskResult. You need to change the part, you need to literally cut it open.结果就是，如果你需要更换某个零件，就得把它切开。
Tim DoddWow. So you'll probably at this point you might as well just like swap out the whole engine, I assume, and just...?哇。所以到时候你可能还不如直接换掉整台发动机，我猜……？
Elon MuskNo, we cut it open.不，我们会切开它。
Tim DoddYeah.好的。
Elon MuskWe cut it open.我们把它剖开了。
Tim DoddAlright. It's just crazy.好家伙，真是太疯狂了。
Elon MuskI mean, there's a massive bolted flange for the hot gas manifold that's transferring hot gas from the fuel pump side. You can see that.我是说，热气歧管那里有一个巨大的螺栓法兰，它负责从燃料泵侧传输热气。你能看到那个。
Tim DoddIt's hard to point at 'cause it's up in the air, but the thing that joins the...现在指过去有点难，因为它在空中，不过就是那个连接……
Elon MuskThe fuel to the ox.燃料侧到氧化剂侧。
Tim DoddThe fuel pump to the ox pump. Yeah. The kind of band-looking thing.燃料泵到氧化剂泵。对，就是那个看起来像个箍的东西。
Elon MuskRight. Yeah. The band-looking thing, that has a monster flange at the top and bottom. And you want to get rid of those two.对，就那个箍状的东西，顶部和底部各有一个超大法兰。你就是要把那两个干掉。
Tim DoddAnd that has to hold a lot of pressure.那个得承受很大的压力吧。
Elon MuskHot. That's a whole lot of pressure. Lot of pressure. Yes.还有高温。压力大得很，非常大的压力。是的。
Tim DoddGeez.天哪。
Elon MuskI mean, there's a lot of flanges here. This pump is like made of flanges. Flange, flange, flange, flange, flange.我的意思是，这里到处都是法兰。这个泵简直就是由法兰堆出来的。法兰、法兰、法兰、法兰、法兰。
Tim DoddAnd are these all there...?这些全都是……？
Elon MuskI mean these are beast-level flanges.我是说，这些都是猛兽级别的法兰。
Tim DoddAnd these are all there. So there is no active cooling inside of two like this, or the current version of Raptor like this? There's no...这些都在那儿，所以这个版本里面，或者说当前版本的 Raptor，里面没有主动冷却对吧？没有……
Elon MuskCurrent version does not have — there's no, well, there technically is some, but the current version of Raptor does not have sufficient cooling to be able to resist being in hot gas plasma.当前版本——没有，好吧，技术上来讲有一点点，但当前版本的 Raptor 没有足够的冷却能力来抵御热气等离子体环境。
Tim DoddHot plasma. Yeah. It would melt.热等离子体。对，会融化掉。
Elon MuskThat's why I need the shield here then. That's why it's heavily shielded. But next gen, a bunch of the flanges you see here will disappear and it will have integral cooling and integral secondary flow circuits.所以这才需要护盾，所以它的防护非常厚实。但下一代上，你现在看到的很多法兰都会消失，它会有集成冷却和集成二次流路。
Tim DoddYeah. Do you guys — is it possible to do a...?对，那你们有没有可能做一个……？
Elon MuskThere's a whole bunch of engines down there pretty densely packed. It's a lot of thrust.下面有一大堆发动机，排列相当密集，推力非常大。
Tim DoddIt's a lot of thrust. It is crazy. It looks like, when you go to a Christmas street store or something. Yeah, that's insane.推力确实巨大。太疯狂了。看起来就像去圣诞节街边商店一样。对，简直不可思议。
Elon MuskEach one of these is the most advanced rocket engine ever made.每一台都是有史以来最先进的火箭发动机。
Tim DoddAnd they're just being cranked out like it's nothing.而且它们就像流水线一样被源源不断地生产出来，好像没什么大不了的。
Elon MuskYeah. Super high pressure, high efficiency. You've got a full-flow staged combustion, all the good stuff.是的，超高压、高效率，全流量分级燃烧，所有好东西都有。
Tim DoddIt's insane. Yeah. Has there ever been any look into — I know, you know, with aircraft turbines you can do some kind of cooling on the actual turbine blades. Is there any way to do any kind of cooling on the turbine blades?太不可思议了。对。我一直在想——我知道，就像飞机涡轮机，你可以对涡轮叶片做某种冷却。有没有办法对涡轮叶片做某种冷却？
Elon MuskOn Raptor, we've had that discussion many times. We should probably head back into the main factory.关于 Raptor，我们讨论过很多次这个问题。咱们应该回主厂区去了。
Tim DoddGeez. I just can't believe how much has changed out here. You have two mega bays. I mean, last time I was out here there was only one mega bay and nothing had doors. Now you have doors. That's a pretty good creature comfort. It is turning into a real factory, you know.天哪，我真不敢相信这里变了多少。你们有两个超级厂房了。我是说，上次我来这里的时候只有一个超级厂房，而且什么门都没有。现在有门了，这算是个像样的配置了。这里确实越来越像一个真正的工厂了，你懂吧。
Elon MuskWell, this is a real factory that we're building here. Quite big.嗯，这里正在建的就是一个真正的工厂，相当大。
Tim DoddIt's hard to keep up with everything out here.这里的一切实在太难追上了。
Elon MuskYeah. So this is — we'll finally have a real factory for Starship, not just making it in tents. So long term we wanna try to get the thrust of Raptor up to around 330, maybe a little higher, maybe 335 metric tons. So that'll take us to a 10,000-ton thrust at liftoff.是的，这样我们终于有一个真正的 Starship 工厂了，不再是在帐篷里生产。长远来看，我们想把 Raptor 的推力提升到大约 330，也许再高一点，大概 335 公吨。这样起飞推力就能达到 10,000 吨。
Tim DoddThat's absolutely absurd. Sorry. That's absurd.那绝对是荒谬的。不好意思，真的是荒谬。
Elon MuskYeah. It's absurd. Like beyond absurd.是的，荒谬。超乎荒谬。
Tim DoddThat's coming up on three times the amount of power of Saturn V.这差不多是 Saturn V 推力的三倍了。
Elon MuskThat'd be roughly three times Saturn V. Yeah.大概就是 Saturn V 的三倍。是的。
Tim DoddThat's what you need. 22 million pounds of thrust. Saturn V is seven and a half. Oh my gosh. Absolutely insane.这就是你们需要的。2200 万磅推力。Saturn V 是 750 万磅。天哪。绝对疯狂。
Tim DoddWell, and I think there's this kind of feeling of, why aren't people doing things like the Saturn V being built in the sixties...?而且我觉得有一种感觉，就是——为什么没有人做出六十年代那种 Saturn V 级别的东西呢……？
Elon MuskSaturn V is primitive compared to Starship.Saturn V 跟 Starship 比起来简直是原始的。
Tim DoddYes. And it's insanely expensive. It wasn't sustainable.是的，而且贵得要命，根本不可持续。
Elon MuskYeah. And it was expendable. So Starship is in a — I mean, just any rocket that is fully reusable, which no one has achieved because it is extremely difficult. Not because they didn't think about reusability.没错，而且它是一次性的。所以 Starship——我是说，任何完全可重复使用的火箭，没有人真正实现过，因为这极其困难。不是因为没人想过可重复使用。
Tim DoddRight, right.对对。
Elon MuskIt was just too hard. And obviously we haven't achieved that either. We've gotta — I'm hopeful that we'll achieve it by next year. But at least we have a situation where we have a design where success is one of the possible outcomes. No prior design had success as one of the possible outcomes for full reusability.只是太难了。显然我们也还没实现。我们必须——我希望明年能实现。但至少我们现在有了一个设计，让「成功」成为可能的结果之一。此前没有任何设计能让完全可重复使用的「成功」成为可能结果之一。
Tim DoddWell, and if you think about it, let's say you guys for some reason just were like, okay, screw it, we have to launch 300 metric tons to orbit. You could absolutely... you could expend a rocket if you absolutely had to for some reason.还有，你想想，假设你们出于某种原因就说，好吧算了，我们得往轨道送 300 公吨。如果真有必要，你们完全可以……你可以把火箭当一次性用。
Elon MuskIt'd be pointless.那毫无意义。
Tim DoddIt would be pointless. But like you have that capability for the first time since the Saturn V.的确毫无意义。但你们拥有这种能力，这是自 Saturn V 以来的第一次。
Elon MuskWell, I mean generally if you can do 200 tons reusable, you can do double that expendable.嗯，我是说，一般来讲，如果可重复使用能送 200 吨，那一次性就能送差不多两倍，也就是 400 吨。
Tim Dodd400 tons. Yeah. Which is insane. I mean, even to the point of, if you had to do, let's say HLS or something to try to speed it up, and if orbital refueling's not done or something...400 吨，没错。太疯狂了。我是说，甚至到了这种程度——如果你非得做 HLS 或者类似的任务，想加快进度，轨道补加没搞定之类的……
Elon MuskNo orbital refilling — I mean, I don't wanna count chickens before they hatch, but orbital refilling is really just docking with ourselves. We dock with the space station all the time. A space station is way harder to dock with than ourselves.轨道加注——我不想过早庆功，但轨道加注说穿了就是跟我们自己的飞船对接。我们一直都在跟空间站对接。跟空间站对接比跟我们自己对接难多了。
Tim DoddAnd will it be all docking up to like a depot? Is that kind of the plan? Is there to be an orbital...?那会是一路对接到一个燃料仓库吗？大概是那个计划吗？会有一个轨道……？
Elon MuskIt depends on how quickly you wanna launch. So if you're going to the moon, I don't know, I don't think you need a depot. I think you just send a ship up and send tankers immediately. And your boil-off rate will not be too bad. So now for the moon, you'd want to have a dedicated earth-orbit-to-moon system because you don't need a heat shield. Well, I need a heat shield to brake I suppose. Well, probably actually. The moon's like harder than it seems because it doesn't have an atmosphere. So you can't use the atmosphere to brake.这取决于你想多快发射。如果是去月球，我觉得不需要仓库。我觉得只要把飞船送上去，然后立即发射加注船就行。蒸发损耗不会太严重。现在说到月球，你可能需要专门的地球轨道到月球系统，因为不需要隔热罩。好吧，我想制动还是得用隔热罩。也许确实要。月球其实比看起来难，因为它没有大气层，所以不能用大气层制动。
Tim DoddBut if you have time...但如果有时间的话……
Elon MuskYou can, I guess you probably have anyway. It's like, for landing on the moon, obviously you don't need flaps, don't need heat shield, and you need very little thrust. But you do need pretty big landing legs. So in case one leg lands on a boulder and one lands on a crater. And you don't wanna tip over.你可以，我想大概也能行。就像是，在月球上着陆，显然不需要翼面，不需要隔热罩，也只需要很小的推力。但确实需要相当大的着陆腿，以防一条腿踩在巨石上、另一条踩在陨石坑里，你不想翻倒。
Tim DoddRight. Because that's a — you know, I think HLS, I don't think a lot of people understand that we're going from a 16-tonne lunar lander with the Apollo program to a — I mean I don't even know how heavy HLS is gonna be when it lands. It's gonna be at least 10 times that massive, and acres of volume compared to anything that was landed during the Apollo program. And I just think that people aren't necessarily ready for how big Starship will be on the moon. It's basically a habitat when it's on the moon. It's not just a little tiny tent like the Apollo lunar landers.对，因为——你知道，我觉得很多人不明白，我们要从 Apollo 计划那个 16 吨的月球着陆器，变成——我甚至不知道 HLS 着陆时会有多重。大概至少是那个的十倍，体积也比 Apollo 计划着陆的任何东西都大了好几个数量级。我只是觉得人们还没准备好迎接 Starship 在月球上有多大。它在月球上基本上就是一个居住舱，不只是像 Apollo 月球着陆器那样一个小小的帐篷。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, I think the next step is to go beyond Apollo and have a permanently occupied base on the moon. Like Moon Base Alpha, that's the next step. So you don't wanna just have a few people there for a few hours; you wanna have a permanently occupied base.是的，我觉得下一步是超越 Apollo，在月球上建立一个永久有人驻守的基地。就像 Moon Base Alpha，这是下一步。所以不是只让几个人在那儿待几个小时；而是要有一个永久有人驻守的基地。
Tim DoddThis factory's huge. And I guarantee we came back in a year, it'd be just up and running like a normal factory already.这个工厂太大了。我敢保证，要是我们一年后再来，这里肯定已经像一个正常工厂一样运转了。
Elon MuskI mean, this will be filled with equipment in three months.我是说，三个月后这里就会装满设备。
Tim DoddGeez. So is there a decent amount of like new stuff that's — is there hardware coming in here and tools that are coming here that will unlock just mostly production rate, or even like new ideas? What's that kind of like?天哪。那现在有没有相当数量的新东西——有没有新硬件和工具要进来，主要是为了提升产能，还是也有新的设计思路？那是什么样的感觉？
Elon MuskI mean, you can build any given design in an artisanal way slowly, by having a lot of crews come to the same station. But in order to have real production, you've gotta move from one station to another where you have the same amount of work at each station. So this is meant to have a lot of stations. So you'll see a lot of work, and you'll be able to see very clearly where the blockages are.我是说，你可以用手工方式慢慢地制造任何给定的设计，让很多人同时在同一工位工作。但要实现真正的量产，你必须从一个工位流到另一个工位，每个工位的工作量要大致相同。这里就是为了有很多工位。所以你会看到大量的工作在进行，你也能非常清楚地看到瓶颈在哪里。
Tim DoddAnd make changes to it then.然后再针对性地做改变。
Elon MuskYeah.是的。
Tim DoddGeez. It's so funny to think about how — I know we were only five years ago out here when the MK1, and all you had was a tent and Stargate was the biggest thing out here. That little Stargate thing. And now I almost missed it trying to pull into Stargate today 'cause it looks like a little hut. It's dwarfed by absolutely everything else out here already. It's just crazy. Oh, that feels nice. Air conditioning. Holy crap. It just keeps going. I thought that was the main thing.太有意思了。想想看——五年前我们还在这里看 MK1，你只有一顶帐篷，Stargate 是这里最大的东西，那个小 Stargate 门。而现在，我今天开车进来差点没认出 Stargate，因为它看起来就像一间小棚屋，已经被这里的一切彻底淹没了。太疯狂了。哦，感觉真好，有空调。妈呀。还在继续延伸，我以为那就是主体了。
Tim DoddYeah. Geez. It was more behind that wall. Holy crap.对，太过分了，那堵墙后面还有更多。妈呀。
Elon MuskSo this is more of a real factory here. This is what the other side will look like. The other side will look like this. We're obviously just checking each tile to make sure it's not cracked and it's well seated.所以这边才更像是真正的工厂。另一边建好后也会是这个样子，另一边会长这样。我们现在就是在逐一检查每一块瓦片，确保它没有裂缝，而且安装牢固。
Tim DoddHow are you feeling about the way they're actually secured on there? Like the mounting point? Is that decent?你们对实际的固定方式感觉怎么样？就是那个安装点？还不错？
Elon MuskWe're continuing to iterate on the mounting point.我们还在持续迭代安装点的设计。
Tim DoddI always...我一直……
Elon MuskI mean, 99% of the time it works well. So it's just a question of figuring out what are the 1% that have issues that cause the tile to crack or some other problem.我是说，99% 的情况下都运作良好。只是需要搞清楚是哪 1% 出了问题，导致瓦片裂裂或者其他问题。
Tim DoddI always keep thinking one of the big challenges is that you can only access it — you can't access it from either side really. Like there's not a bolt you can screw on, because it's a snap-on.我一直觉得一个大挑战是，你只能从外面接触它，两侧都没法真正够到，没有可以拧的螺栓，因为它是卡扣式的。
Elon MuskIt has to be a snap-on.必须是卡扣式的。
Tim DoddHave you ever seen the like furniture mountings where you have two pieces of wood joined together and then you spin a magnet on one end? And it spins the nut on. I've always wondered if something like that could be...?你有没有见过那种家具连接件，两块木头对在一起，然后在一端转一块磁铁，把螺母旋紧进去？我一直在想有没有什么类似的方案……？
Elon MuskI mean this is basically — it snaps on and you pretty much have to break the tile to pull it off.我是说，这个基本上就是——卡进去之后，你基本上得把瓦片弄碎才能取下来。
Tim DoddReally? Huh.真的？哦。
Elon MuskThat's meant to go on and stay on.这东西就是设计来装上去不取下来的。
Tim DoddYeah. And we still see, even on the parts that aren't tapered up, you know, like on the main body, we still see some horizontal seams. What's the deal with those seams? I know that was like pretty bad.对。我们在那些非锥形部分——比如主体筒段上——也还是能看到一些横向接缝。那些接缝是怎么回事？我知道那个问题曾经挺严重的。
Elon MuskNo, they don't really matter that much. They're just different sections of the nose cone. So now this is somewhat of a debate. You could wait until the whole nose cone is made and then put the attachment points on at that point. So currently we put the tile attachment points on in sections.不，其实没那么重要。那只是鼻锥的不同分段。现在这是个有点争议的问题：你可以等整个鼻锥做好之后，再在那时候装上连接点。而目前我们是分段装瓦片连接点的。
Tim DoddOkay. So that's why you've got a line, the horizontal line. Okay. Yeah. It's probably just a lot harder — once it's all manufactured, it's so massive it'd be hard to put all the attachment points on. Is that kind of the problem there?好的，所以这就是为什么会有那条横线。明白了。是的，估计是整体制造完成后太大了，再装连接点就很困难了。大概是这个问题？
Elon MuskThere's more than one way to skin a cat. This is just a cat getting skinned.剥猫的方法不止一种，这只是其中一种剥法。
Tim DoddYeah, yeah.对，对。
Elon MuskIt's not to say that there is not a better way to do it. There are. The first order of business is to get one way at all that works. Thereafter, to optimize.不是说没有更好的方法，肯定有。首要任务是先找到一种行得通的方法，然后再优化。
Tim DoddHmm.嗯。
Elon MuskWatch your step here.这里脚下注意。
Tim DoddThere's still a lot of work that we gotta do here. Oh, that's cool looking. Is that the landing tank for...?这里还有好多工作要做。哦，那个看起来好酷，那是……的着陆储箱？
Elon MuskIt's the header tank.是 header tank（头部储箱）。
Tim DoddHeader tank there. That's insane. Geez. And then are those COPVs propped up against it like that then? Is that what those are? Geez.header tank，那里。太不可思议了。天哪。那靠在旁边的是 COPV 吗？那些是什么？天哪。
Elon MuskGotta pressurize the header tank with something when the engine's not on.发动机不工作的时候，还是得用什么来给 header tank 增压。
Tim DoddExactly. Wow. So the Pez door that we see on Starship now — is that, do you think that's gonna stick around, or is there still gonna be like a chomper someday?没错。哇。那么现在 Starship 上那个 Pez 糖果式的舱门——你觉得它会保留下去，还是有一天会有「咬合式」舱门？
Elon MuskWell, for the Starlink satellites, they're pretty flat.嗯，对于 Starlink 卫星来说，它们很扁。
Tim DoddThe chomper makes sense.咬合式舱门是有道理的。
Elon MuskThere's no point in having a giant fairing for a flat little — it's a giant flat pancake.没有必要为一个又扁又平的小东西配一个巨大的整流罩，那东西就是个大平底锅。
Tim DoddDid the door test go reasonably well on the last one? Because I think you guys aren't doing anything with it; it had some issues. It's pretty rudimentary of course, I assume.上次的舱门测试进行得还算顺利吗？因为我觉得你们好像没在那上面做什么，好像有些问题。当然肯定还很初步。
Elon MuskYeah. But it's — well, you've got this sort of really quite sophisticated factory on a sandbar. On a sandbar by the Rio Grande. It's like an alien spaceship landed.是的。但是——你看，你有这么一座相当复杂的工厂，建在一块沙洲上。Rio Grande 旁边的沙洲上。就像一艘外星飞船降落在那里一样。
Tim DoddSeriously. So these are — are these thrusters here then? Yeah. Is that what these are?真的是这样。那这些是推力器吗？对，那些是推力器吗？
Elon MuskLittle old jet packs. This will take the detailed stuff that might run afoul of ITAR stuff.小小的喷气背包。这里涉及到一些可能碰到 ITAR 规定的细节内容。
Tim DoddDeal.没问题。
Elon MuskYeah. I mean, I don't know if anyone is gonna copy us; that would be a hard thing to copy.是的，我不知道有没有人会抄我们；这个真的很难抄。
Tim DoddIt's come a long way since three tents.从三顶帐篷到现在，真是走了好长一段路。
Elon MuskYeah, it sure has. I mean, everything's clean in this. There's no mud and dust. It's better when it has doors on it.是的，确实。我是说，这里面一切都很干净，没有泥没有灰尘。有了门之后好多了。
Tim DoddI mean, everything used to have mud and dust.我是说，以前到处都是泥和灰尘。
Elon MuskYes. And birds and things. There's only some finite mud and dust, but it's much smaller.是的，还有鸟什么的。现在还是有一点泥和灰尘，但少得多了。
Tim DoddIt's a long ways from MK1.和 MK1 的时代相比，真是天壤之别。
Elon MuskYeah. Yeah. I mean the MK1 thing, it looked like the junkyard at Tatooine.是的，没错。MK1 那时候，看起来就像 Tatooine 星球上的废品场。
Tim DoddWhich was charming.那有一种特别的魅力。
Elon MuskYeah. It was a lot of dust and mud.是的，到处都是灰尘和泥巴。
Tim DoddThe farside rocket.偏僻之地的火箭。
Elon MuskYeah. The farside rocket. I mean, MK1 was conceptual, as a concept piece.是的，偏僻之地的火箭。MK1 嘛，它更像一个概念件，就是一个概念展示物。
Tim DoddConcept art. It was part of the journey.概念艺术，它是这段旅程的一部分。
Elon MuskAbsolutely. Yeah.绝对是的。
Tim DoddSo James pointed out that this actually wraps all the way around — like all of that's still back there. There's more to it.James 刚指出，这其实一路绕过去——那后面还有更多，还没完。
Elon MuskYeah. That's coming down. That's the dome line. That's the dome line. Dome line and the coils. That's the starting line's over there.是的，那边还在延伸。那是穹顶生产线，穹顶生产线和卷材线。起点线在那边。
Tim DoddThat's crazy.太疯狂了。
Elon MuskYeah. So we do have an existing factory that's wrapped around the one you just saw. So that's where we make the ship and the booster.是的，我们其实有一个现有工厂，就环绕在你刚才看的那个旁边。那就是我们制造飞船和助推器的地方。
Tim DoddSo then that will open up and you'll start serpentining it basically through there.然后那边打通之后，生产线就基本上蜿蜒着穿过那里了。
Elon MuskYeah. Once we have the doors on the other side, we will take down that wall, and then you'll just have factory. It'll just kind of go as far as the eye can see.是的。一旦另一边的门装好，我们就把那堵墙拆掉，那就只剩工厂了，一眼望不到头。
Tim DoddIt's so much bigger than I thought from the road. I mean, it looks big from the road, but it's insane.从公路上看感觉比我想象中大得多。从路边看已经挺大的了，但真的太疯狂了。
Elon MuskRidiculous. And obviously the sections get gradually bigger as you go south, right? So that's why things start off sort of short and then get taller as you go along.太荒唐了。而且显然各个分区越往南越大，对吗？所以这就是为什么一开始看起来矮一些，越往里走越高。
Tim DoddEven the roof line does that, right?连屋顶线也是这样的吧？
Elon MuskYeah. It's gonna get bigger if the pieces get bigger.是的，零件越大，厂房自然也得越大。
Tim DoddThat's absolutely crazy. Are you guys still using — I remember, you know, back in the day there's a lot of like Tesla motors being used. Oh, actually you said that way, out that way. Okay. So there's a lot of Tesla motors being used, like to, for the fins and all that kind of stuff. And maybe even the grid fins had like literally a Model S motor or something. Are you still kind of using some Tesla parts like that?太不可思议了。你们还在用——我记得以前用了很多特斯拉电机。哦，你说的是那个方向？好的。那么用了很多 Tesla 电机，比如用来驱动翼面什么的，也许网格翼上甚至直接用了一个 Model S 的电机或者什么。你们现在还在用某些 Tesla 零件吗？
Elon MuskYeah, we just use the Tesla drive units to actuate the grid fins.是的，我们就是用 Tesla 驱动单元来驱动网格翼。
Tim DoddAnd the big flaps still too, the on-ship?飞船上的大翼面也是？
Elon MuskYes. Sorry. Two. Yes. Essentially. Sorry, I was just thinking about something else.是的。不好意思，两个都是，是的。基本上。对不起，我刚才在想别的事。
Elon MuskWe're trying not to use hydraulics. It's all electric actuation. So the engine is also gimbaled electrically.我们尽量不用液压，全部是电动驱动。发动机的矢量调节也是电动的。
Tim DoddYep. So you're really moving away from hydraulics wherever possible. Really?明白了，所以你们真的在尽可能地远离液压。是这样？
Elon MuskYeah. There's almost — I think there's actually no hydraulics in the vehicle. If there's hydraulics, some very tiny little part, but I think there's none.是的，几乎没有——我觉得飞行器里实际上没有任何液压。如果有的话，也是某个非常小的部件，但我觉得一点都没有。
Tim DoddThat's wild. Actually, I can't even think of another...太神了，我甚至想不到另一个……
Elon MuskYeah, there's pneumatics, right? A lot, for all the valves and everything obviously.是的，有气动系统，当然了，所有阀门什么的都是气动的。
Tim DoddThat's crazy. Geez.太疯狂了。天哪。
Elon MuskIt's surreal compared to what it was.和以前相比，真有一种超现实的感觉。
Tim DoddYeah, it was surreal just a little bit ago. Wow. It just keeps going and going. That is crazy.是的，就在不久前还是超现实的，哇。还在延伸，停不下来，真的太疯狂了。
Elon MuskYeah. From one little tent.是的，从一顶小帐篷到现在。
Tim DoddThis is starting to make Hawthorne look tiny. And Hawthorne's a big...这里都快让 Hawthorne 显得小了，而 Hawthorne 已经是个很大……
Elon MuskWell, Hawthorne's actually a whole campus.嗯，Hawthorne 实际上是一整个园区。
Tim DoddCool. Absolutely crazy.太酷了，绝对疯狂。
Elon MuskThat's Meme Street.那是 Meme Street（梗图街）。
Tim DoddMeme Street? Yeah. Is that what it says now?Meme Street？现在就叫这个了？
Elon MuskThat's what it's called.就是这么叫的。
Tim DoddAll right. I think we're jumping in a different car here.好吧，我觉得我们换一辆车。
Elon MuskBut if you look at the street sign...你看看那个路牌……
Tim DoddWe got Meme Street.我们到 Meme Street 了。
Elon MuskIt's literally called Meme Street. That is its official name. It used to be called Wemes. And we changed it from Wemes to Memes.这条街字面意思就叫 Meme Street，这是它的官方名称。以前叫 Wemes，我们把它从 Wemes 改成了 Memes。
Tim DoddThe important things. I love it. Holy crap.这才是重要的事情嘛，我喜欢。妈的天哪。
Tim DoddWas that incredible or what? Huge thank you, especially to Elon Musk for showing us around and following up and just teaching us so much about what's going on and showing us the inside. Huge thanks. Amazing. And I also owe a huge thank you to our supporters, especially those over on Patreon. If you wanna support the work we do here, head on over to patreon.com/everydayastronaut, and now is a great time to be a supporter because we already have part two up for review. So again, patreon.com/everydayastronaut to catch part two right now. But even if you're not a supporter, fear not, part two is coming out once reviews are done. So be sure you're subscribed so you don't miss out.怎么样，精彩吗？非常感谢 Elon Musk 带我们参观，跟进采访，为我们讲解了这么多并让我们看到了内部。太感谢了，太棒了。我还要大力感谢我们的支持者，尤其是 Patreon 上的那些朋友。如果你想支持我们在这里做的工作，就去 patreon.com/everydayastronaut，现在是成为支持者的好时机，因为第二部分已经在审阅中了。所以再次提醒，patreon.com/everydayastronaut 现在就可以看第二部分。不过就算你不是支持者也别担心，第二部分审阅完成就会公开发布。所以确保你已经订阅，这样就不会错过了。
Tim DoddAnd while you're waiting, a good free way to support the channel is to just watch some recent videos that you might have missed, like other tours of companies or deep dives on alternate launch concepts. So click around, watch a few. It truly helps the channel out. And while you're online, be sure and check out our awesome merch store for shirts like this, our new orbital shirt and lots of other incredible things over at everydayastronaut.com/shop. Thanks everybody. That's gonna do it for me. I'm Tim Dodd, the Everyday Astronaut, bringing space down to earth for everyday people.在等待的同时，免费支持频道的好方法是去看看你可能错过的近期视频，比如其他公司参观或者关于替代发射概念的深度解析。所以点进去多看几个，这真的对频道很有帮助。在线的时候，也别忘了去看看我们的周边商店，里面有像这件、我们新的 orbital 衬衫还有很多其他棒棒的东西，网址是 everydayastronaut.com/shop。谢谢大家，今天就到这里。我是 Tim Dodd，Everyday Astronaut，为普通人把航天带回地球。