Sean HannityThanks for having us and doing this. I know there's a lot of interest in this. First let me start with you, Elon. What are the budgetary savings goals, and how much do you think you've achieved so far?感谢你们来做这个，也感谢你们接受采访。我知道大家对这件事很感兴趣。先从你开始，Elon。预算削减的目标是什么，你认为到目前为止已经实现了多少？
Elon MuskOur goal is to reduce the deficit by a trillion dollars. So from a nominal deficit of 2 trillion, to try to cut the deficit in half to 1 trillion. Or looked at it in total federal spending, to drop the federal spending from 7 trillion to 6 trillion. We want to reduce the spending by eliminating waste and fraud, reduce the spending by 15%, which seems really quite achievable. The government is not efficient, and there's a lot of waste and fraud. So we feel confident that a 15% reduction can be done without affecting any of the critical government services.我们的目标是把赤字削减 1 万亿美元。也就是说，从名义赤字 2 万亿美元，争取把赤字砍一半到 1 万亿。换个角度看，就是把联邦支出从 7 万亿降到 6 万亿。我们想通过消除浪费和欺诈来削减支出，把支出减少 15%——这个目标看起来完全可以实现。政府效率低下，浪费和欺诈现象大量存在。所以我们有信心，15% 的削减完全可以在不影响任何关键政府服务的前提下做到。
Sean HannityI'm going to talk to all the guys here about the specifics, but for you, what's the most astonishing thing you found out in this process?我会和在座各位聊聊具体情况，但对你来说，在这个过程中最令你震惊的事情是什么？
Elon MuskThe sheer amount of waste and fraud in the government, it is astonishing. It's mind-blowing. We routinely encounter wastes of a billion dollars or more casually. For example, like the simple survey that was literally a 10-question survey that you could do with Survey Monkey, costs about $10,000, the government was being charged almost a billion dollars for that, for just the service. A billion dollars for a simple online survey: do you like the national park? And then there appear to be no feedback loop for what would be done with that survey. So the survey would just go to nothing.政府里浪费和欺诈的规模之大，真是令人瞠目结舌，简直颠覆认知。我们隔三差五就会碰到十亿美元量级的浪费，还是那种随随便便的。比如有一个调查，字面意思就是一份 10 道题的问卷，用 Survey Monkey 就能做，成本大概 $10,000，但政府被收了将近 10 亿美元——就为了这个服务。一个简单的网络调查，问你喜不喜欢国家公园，就要花 10 亿美元。而且好像也没有任何反馈机制说调查结果会用来做什么。所以那个调查就这么打了水漂。
Sean HannityTechnically you are a special government employee, and you're supposed to be 130 days. Are you going to continue past that, or do you think that's what you're going to do?从技术上说你是一名特别政府雇员，规定是 130 天。你打算在期满之后继续，还是觉得到那时候就差不多了？
Elon MuskWell, I think we will have accomplished most of the work required to reduce the deficit by a trillion dollars within that time frame.我认为在那个时间范围内，我们应该已经完成了把赤字削减 1 万亿美元所需的大部分工作。
Sean HannitySo in that time frame, days. And the process is a report at some point at 100 days, or?好的，就在那个时间范围内完成。这个过程大概是在 100 天的时候出一份报告，还是怎么安排的？
Elon MuskNot really a report. We are cutting the waste and fraud in real time. So every day that passes, our goal is to reduce the waste and fraud by $4 billion a day, every day, seven days a week, and so far we are succeeding.不太算是出报告。我们是在实时削减浪费和欺诈。所以我们的目标是每过一天，每天七天不间断，每天削减 40 亿美元的浪费和欺诈，目前我们正在推进，进展顺利。
Sean HannityAnd I'm going to talk of the specifics, but there obviously are DOGE critics who are reading all kinds of stuff, obviously lawmakers on the other side of the aisle are attacking you, and they characterize the approach as this fire, ready, and then aim. How do you approach that, how do you respond to that?我会聊到具体细节，但 DOGE 显然有很多批评者在到处散布各种说法，另一边的议员也在攻击你们，他们把这种方式定性为「先开枪、再瞄准」。你们怎么看待这个，怎么回应？
Elon MuskWell, I do agree that we actually want to be careful in the cuts, so we want to measure twice if not thrice and cut once. And actually that is our approach. They may characterize it as shooting from the hip, but it is anything but that. Which does not say that we don't make mistakes. If we were to approach this with the standard of making no mistakes at all, that would be like saying someone in baseball's got to bat a thousand, that's impossible. So when we do make mistakes, we correct them quickly, and we move on.嗯，我确实同意我们在削减上要谨慎——我们要量两次、甚至量三次再下刀。这实际上就是我们的做法。他们可能说我们是随意乱来，但事实完全相反。当然，这不是说我们不会犯错。如果我们追求零失误，那就好比棒球里要求打击率一千，那是不可能的。所以当我们犯了错，我们会迅速纠正，然后继续推进。
Sean HannitySome people say this shouldn't take a rocket scientist. Steve Davis, you are a rocket scientist.有人说这件事不需要火箭科学家才能搞定。Steve Davis，你可是货真价实的火箭科学家。
Steve DavisUsed to be, yeah.以前是，没错。
Sean HannityAnd now essentially you're the Chief Operating Officer of DOGE, day-to-day operations, fair to say?那现在基本上你就是 DOGE 的首席运营官，负责日常运营，这么说准确吗？
Steve DavisYeah, part of the DOGE team.是的，是 DOGE 团队的一员。
Sean HannitySo how did you end up here, what's the biggest challenge you see?那你是怎么来到这里的，你认为最大的挑战是什么？
Steve DavisThe reason I'm here, which is probably for many, is that I think the goal is incredibly inspiring. I think most of the taxpayers in the country would agree that the country going bankrupt would be a very bad thing, and therefore the country going not bankrupt is a good thing, that all of us are willing to kind of put our lives on hold in order to do. I think the thing that's special right now is we actually believe there's a chance to succeed. That there's an Administration that's supportive, and a great cabinet and just a great group that will actually make success a possible outcome. And I think that, given the inspiring mission and given the non-zero chance of success, it was worth doing.我来这里的原因，我相信很多人也一样，是因为这个目标真的非常鼓舞人心。我认为这个国家大多数纳税人都会同意，这个国家破产是一件非常糟糕的事，因此让这个国家不破产是一件好事，值得我们所有人暂时放下自己的生活来努力。我认为现在特别的地方在于，我们真的相信有机会成功。有一届支持这件事的政府，有出色的内阁，有一群真正优秀的人，成功是一个真实可能的结果。我认为，有这么一个鼓舞人心的使命，再加上成功概率不为零，就值得去做。
Elon MuskI just like to sort of reemphasize that point. The success of DOGE is only possible with President Trump and with the outstanding cabinet that he selected. It would be impossible without the support of the president and the cabinet.我想再强调一下这一点。DOGE 的成功离不开 Trump 总统以及他所挑选的出色内阁。没有总统和内阁的支持，这一切都是不可能实现的。
Sean HannityBut you're finding the money, I mean it's big numbers, right?但你们确实在找到真金白银，数字很大，对吧？
Steve DavisYeah, like Yan said, the minimum impulse bit is often a billion dollars. So for example, the $830 million, which was the online survey, that's an enormous amount of money that wouldn't have been found if the DOGE team wasn't working with it, in that case the Department of Interior. But then taking it one step further, DOGE then publishes these things on our website for maximum transparency. So now the general public, it would have been impossible for the general public to have seen that. Now anyone can just log into doge.gov anytime and see these payments. They're not yet in real time, they're close, but they'll probably be in real time within the next few weeks.是的，就像 Yan 说的，最小的一笔往往也有 10 亿美元量级。举个例子，那份 $830 million 的网络调查，如果不是 DOGE 团队和内政部合作介入，根本不可能被发现。而且更进一步，DOGE 还会把这些案例公布在我们网站上，做到最大程度的透明。现在普通公众也能看到这些了，这在以前是完全不可能的。现在任何人随时都可以登录 doge.gov 查看这些支付记录。还不是实时的，但已经接近了，大概再过几周应该就能做到实时。
Sean HannityBut the process still involves Congress, right, at some level?但这个过程还是涉及国会，对吧，某种程度上？
Elon MuskWe try to keep Congress as informed as possible. But the law does say that money needs to be spent correctly, it should not be spent fraudulently or wastefully. It's not contrary to Congress to avoid waste and fraud, it is consistent with the law and consistent with Congress. And we've seen actually great support, at least from the side of the house, and occasionally some Democrats too. It's nice to see people cross the aisle once in a while. But usually when they attack DOGE, they never attack any of the specifics. So they'll say what we're doing is somehow unconstitutional or illegal or whatever, and we're like, well, which line of the cost savings do you disagree with? And they can't point to any. And we list them all on doge.gov and the DOGE handle on X, and you'll see just outrageous things, one outrageous thing after another.我们尽量让国会随时掌握情况。但法律确实规定钱必须用得合法，不能用于欺诈或浪费。避免浪费和欺诈并不违背国会的意志，恰恰是符合法律、符合国会的做法。我们也看到来自众议院方面真心实意的支持，偶尔也有几个民主党人。能看到跨越党派的合作，挺好的。但通常当他们攻击 DOGE 时，从来不针对任何具体事项。他们会说我们做的事情某种程度上违宪、违法或者什么的，我们就说，好，那你们具体反对哪一条节省开支的措施？他们一条都指不出来。我们把所有的都列在 doge.gov 和 X 上的 DOGE 账号里，你去看，一条比一条离谱，真的。
Sean HannityJoe Gebbia, besides Elon you're one of several billionaires here, co-founder of Airbnb, and you wanted to help out.Joe Gebbia，除了 Elon 之外，你是在场几位亿万富翁之一，Airbnb 联合创始人，你是主动请缨来帮忙的。
Joe GebbiaI bumped into Anthony and Elon probably back in February, and they told me something about a mine that was dealt with retirement, and they said they needed somebody to help out to fix retirement in the government. I loved the challenge, so I jumped on board. And it turns out there is actually a mine in Pennsylvania that houses every paper document for the retirement process in the government. Now picture this: this giant cave has 22,000 filing cabinets stacked 10 high to house 400 million pieces of paper. It's a process that started in the 1950s and largely hasn't changed in the last 70 years. And so as he dug into it, we found retirement cases that had so much paper they had to fit it on a shipping pallet.我大概是在二月份碰到了 Anthony 和 Elon，他们跟我说起一个关于矿洞的事，说那里存放着政府退休流程的所有纸质文件，需要有人帮忙解决政府退休问题。我喜欢这个挑战，就加入了。结果发现，宾夕法尼亚州真的有一个矿洞，存放着政府退休流程的所有纸质文件。你想象一下：这个巨大的洞穴里有 22,000 个文件柜，叠了 10 层高，存放着 4 亿张纸。这个流程从 1950 年代就开始了，70 年来基本上没有变化。当我们深入研究时，发现有些退休案例的纸张多到要用货运托盘来装。
Elon MuskSo the process takes many months, and we're going to make it just many days.所以这个流程要花好几个月，而我们要让它只需要好几天。
Sean HannityWill it be digitized, or how?那会数字化吗，还是怎么处理？
Joe GebbiaAbsolutely. So this will be an online digital process that will take just a few days at most. And I really think it's an injustice to civil servants who are subjected to these processes that are older than the age of half the people watching your show tonight. So we really believe that the government can have an Apple Store-like experience: beautifully designed, great user experience, modern systems.当然。这将变成一个在线数字流程，最多只需要几天时间。我真的认为这对那些不得不经历这些流程的公务员来说是一种不公正——这些流程的历史比今晚收看你节目的一半观众的年龄还要长。我们真心相信，政府也可以做到像 Apple Store 那样的体验：设计精美、用户体验极佳、系统现代化。
Sean HannityBecause right now it's by hand?因为现在是全靠手工操作？
Elon MuskYes, the retirement process is all by paper, literally with people carrying paper in manila envelopes into this gigantic mine. So they can't retire more than a certain number every month, about 8,000 a month. That's how the reason we discovered it was, we were saying like, well, let's encourage voluntary retirement. They said, well, the most they could do is 8,000 a month. And even under normal circumstances it can take 6 to 9 months just to have your retirement paperwork processed, and they often get the calculations wrong. So we're like, well, why would it take so long to retire? And they're like, well, because of the mine. They're like, what do you mean, a mine? What's a mine got to do with retiring? And that's where we discovered that all the retirement stuff is still done by paper, in a process that looks identical to what occurred in the 1950s. Like you took a snapshot of the mine when it first started in the 50s to today, it looks the same. It's amazing.是的，退休流程全部是纸质的，真的就是有人把纸装在马尼拉纸袋里，然后搬进那个巨大的矿洞里。所以每个月能处理的退休申请有上限，大约是每月 8,000 份。我们发现这个问题的起因是，我们说鼓励自愿退休吧，他们说，最多一个月只能处理 8,000 份。而且即便是正常情况，光是处理退休手续就要 6 到 9 个月，而且还经常算错。我们就问，为什么退休要这么久？他们说，因为矿洞。我们说，矿洞跟退休有什么关系？就这样我们才发现，所有退休事务还在用纸质流程，跟 1950 年代一模一样。如果你把这个矿洞刚建起来时的照片和今天的对比，完全看不出区别。真的很神奇。
Sean HannitySo how long do you think it'll take to turn over?你觉得要多久才能改过来？
Elon MuskWe're working as fast as we can, probably next couple months we'll have this overhauled. And you know I really think again, like, why are we subjecting our federal workers to processes that they actually have to go through a training just to retire from the government? There's a whole training program that people have to go through in order to retire. I think we can do better for them.我们正在全力推进，大概再过几个月就能完成改造。我真的觉得，为什么要让我们的联邦工作人员经历这种系统——退休前还要专门参加一个培训课程才能弄清楚怎么退休？有一整套专门的培训项目，就为了教人怎么从政府退休。我认为我们可以为他们做得更好。
Sean HannityAram Moghaddassi, DOGE engineer. You go into these places, one of the more than a dozen engineers, first people to go into the agencies and view the computer data sets. Tell me what you're finding, and for people who don't understand how that process works, explain it for them.Aram Moghaddassi，DOGE 工程师。你们进入这些机构，是十几名工程师中的一员，是最先进入各机构查看计算机数据集的人。跟我说说你们发现了什么，还有对于不了解这个流程的人，给大家解释一下它是怎么运作的。
Aram MoghaddassiYeah, I'll say the first thing that got me really excited about DOGE was learning basically the state of government computers. By some estimates government IT cost about a hundred billion dollars, and it's funding systems that are over 50 years old, in the case of something like Social Security or the IRS. So really critical systems are old, they cost a lot of money to maintain, and the efforts to improve them are often very delayed. So I thought, I'm a software engineer that maybe could make a difference here, and that's really what inspired me.我来说说，第一件让我真正对 DOGE 产生浓厚兴趣的事，是了解到政府计算机的现状。据一些估计，政府 IT 的成本大约是 1000 亿美元，却在支撑那些已经运行超过 50 年的系统——比如社会保障或 IRS 的系统。所以非常关键的系统非常老旧，维护成本极高，而改善这些系统的工作又经常严重滞后。于是我想，我是个软件工程师，也许能在这里发挥作用，这就是真正激励我来的原因。
Sean HannityAt a high level there's a lot of mystery about Social Security and a lot of words about it. Here's what Democrats have been saying about it.从宏观层面来说，社会保障有很多神秘感，也有很多说法。下面是民主党人一直在说的话。
OtherIt's absurd that Elon Musk is trying to eliminate billions of dollars from Social Security. Elon Musk and President Trump have set their sights on cutting Social Security. Their goal is clear: destroy Social Security from within.Elon Musk 竟然想从社会保障中砍掉数十亿美元，这太荒谬了。Elon Musk 和 Trump 总统已经将目标对准了削减社会保障。他们的目标很明确：从内部摧毁社会保障。
Sean HannityYou're in the building, I mean you're in the computers. What's happening there, what are you doing?你就在那栋楼里，你就在那些计算机里。那里到底在发生什么，你们在做什么？
Aram MoghaddassiYeah, it doesn't line up with my experience on the ground. And I'll say the two improvements that we're trying to make to Social Security are helping people that legitimately get benefits, protect them from fraud that they experience every day on a routine basis, and also make the experience better. And I'll give you one example. At Social Security, one of the first things we learned is that they get phone calls every day of people trying to change direct deposit information. So when you want to change your bank account you can call Social Security. We learned 40% of the phone calls that they get are from fraudsters.是的，这和我在现场的亲身经历完全不符。我说说我们在社会保障方面正在努力推进的两项改善：一是帮助那些合法领取福利的人，保护他们免受每天例行发生的欺诈侵害；二是改善用户体验。举个例子。在社会保障局，我们最先了解到的情况之一是，每天都会有人打电话来要求修改直接存款信息。也就是说，如果你想换银行账户，你可以打电话给社会保障局。我们得知，他们接到的电话中有 40% 来自诈骗分子。
Sean Hannity40%, that's right, almost half?40%，就是说，差不多有一半？
Aram MoghaddassiYes. And they steal people's Social Security. What happens is they call in, they claim to be a retiree, and they convince the Social Security person on the phone to change where the money is flowing, and it actually goes to some fraudster. This is happening all day, every day. And then somebody doesn't receive their Social Security, it's because of all the fraud loopholes in the Social Security system.是的。他们在盗取人们的社会保障金。他们打来电话，自称是退休人员，然后说服电话那头的社会保障局工作人员把钱转到另一个账户，结果钱就流进了诈骗分子的口袋。这种事每天都在发生，全天无休。然后有人收不到社会保障金，就是因为社会保障系统里有这么多的欺诈漏洞。
Sean HannityHow do you reassure people that what you all are doing is not going to affect their benefits?你们怎么让大家放心，你们正在做的事情不会影响他们的福利？
Elon MuskNo, in fact what we're doing will help their benefits. Legitimate people as a result of the work of DOGE will receive more Social Security, not less. I want to emphasize that. As a result of the work of DOGE, legitimate recipients of Social Security will receive more money, not less money. All right, I emphasize that point, and let the record show that I said this and it will be proven out to be true. Let's check back on this in the future.不但不会影响，事实上我们正在做的事情会让他们的福利更有保障。正是因为 DOGE 的工作，合法的社会保障领取人将会拿到更多钱，而不是更少。我要强调这一点。由于 DOGE 的工作，合法的社会保障领取人将会收到更多的钱，不是更少。好，我特别强调这一点，让记录在案——这件事会被证明是真的。未来我们可以再来核实。
Sean HannitySo Washington Post: the Social Security Administration website crashed four times in 10 days this month because the servers were overloaded, blocking millions of retirees and disabled veterans from logging into their online accounts. Freaked people out. Is that going to change?《华盛顿邮报》报道：本月社会保障局网站因服务器过载，在 10 天内崩溃了 4 次，导致数百万退休人员和残疾退伍军人无法登录自己的在线账户。这让大家很恐慌。这种情况会改变吗？
Elon MuskYes, we're going to make sure that the website stays online.会的，我们会确保网站保持正常运行。
Sean HannityBut is it a result of going in there, something you're doing?但这是进去之后，是你们做了什么导致的吗？
Aram MoghaddassiNo, no. The amount of issues that were with the Social Security system are enormous. As an example, there are over 15 million people that are over the age of 120 that are marked as alive in the Social Security system.不不。社会保障系统存在的问题是天文数字级别的。举个例子，社会保障系统里标注为在世的、年龄超过 120 岁的人超过了 1500 万。
Sean HannityAnd that's an accurate figure, correct? 15 million, correct?这个数据是准确的，对吧？1500 万，没错？
Aram MoghaddassiCorrect. This has been something that's been identified as a problem, again pre-existing problems since 2008 at least, from an IG report. So there were some great people working at the Social Security Administration that found this in 2008 and nothing was done. And so 15 to 20 million Social Security numbers that were clearly fraudulent were floating around, that can be used only for bad intentions, there'd be no way to use those for good intentions. And so one of the things the DOGE team is doing is carefully and very methodically looking at those and making sure that any fraudulent ones are eliminated.没错。这个问题早就被确认了，是早于我们的问题，至少从 2008 年的一份监察长报告起就有记录。所以社会保障局里确实有一些优秀的人，在 2008 年发现了这个问题，但什么也没做。于是，1500 万到 2000 万个明显是伪造的社会保障号在外面游荡，这些号只能被用于不法目的，根本没有正当用途。DOGE 团队正在做的事情之一，就是仔细、非常系统地逐一排查，确保所有欺诈性的号码都被清除掉。
Sean HannityBrad Smith, working at HHS, and obviously another element is Medicare and Medicaid, NIH. What are you finding?Brad Smith，在 HHS 工作，显然还有一块是 Medicare、Medicaid 和 NIH。你们发现了什么？
Brad SmithYeah, well I'd say there's a couple things we're really committed to in our work at HHS. Number one, making sure we continue to have the best biomed research in the world. And number two, making sure, which President Trump has said over and over again, that we 100% protect Medicare and Medicaid. But there's a lot of opportunity. So if I take NIH as an example, today if you're an NIH researcher and you get a $100 grant at your university, today you get to spend 60 of that and your university spends 40 of that. The policy that we're proposing to make is that you get to spend 85 of that and your university spends 15. So that's more money going directly to the scientists who are discovering new cures. Another example at NIH is, today they have 27 different centers, they got created over time by Congress, and they're typically by disease state or body system. There's 700 different IT systems today at NIH, 700 different IT software systems. They can't speak to each other, they don't talk to, they have 27 different CIOs. And so when you think about making great medical discoveries, you have to connect the data.是的，我说说我们在 HHS 工作中真正致力于的几件事。第一，确保我们继续拥有全球最顶尖的生物医学研究。第二，确保——这也是 Trump 总统反复强调的——100% 保护 Medicare 和 Medicaid。但机会确实很多。就拿 NIH 来说，现在如果你是 NIH 的研究员，在你的大学拿到了 $100 的经费，你可以支配其中的 60，你的大学支配 40。我们提议改成：你可以支配 85，你的大学支配 15。这样就有更多的钱直接流向那些正在研发新疗法的科学家。NIH 的另一个例子是，他们现在有 27 个不同的中心，这些中心是国会随着时间推移陆续设立的，通常按疾病或身体系统来划分。NIH 现在有 700 个不同的 IT 系统，700 套不同的 IT 软件系统。这些系统之间无法互通，它们有 27 位不同的 CIO。所以当你想到要取得重大医学突破时，你必须打通数据。
Sean HannityTime out, time out. You see 27 different Chief Information Officers?等等，等等。你是说有 27 位不同的首席信息官？
Brad SmithCorrect, correct. And most of the people are non-technical, so there's a lot of opportunity. It will make science better, not worse. And when I say that our job is tech support, I really mean it. We have to fix the computers. If the computers can't talk to each other you can't get research done. If the computers can't stay online, people won't receive their Social Security. So what we have here are a bunch of failing computer systems that are preventing people from receiving their benefits, that are preventing research from happening, that are extremely vulnerable to fraud, and we're fixing it.没错，没错。而且大多数人都没有技术背景，所以机会很多。这会让科学更好，而不是更差。当我说我们的工作是技术支持时，我是认真的。我们必须修好这些计算机。计算机之间无法互通，你就做不了研究。计算机无法保持在线，人们就收不到社会保障金。所以我们面对的是一堆正在故障的计算机系统，它们在阻止人们领取福利，在阻碍研究进展，在对欺诈极度脆弱——而我们正在修复它。
Sean HannityAnd does that include AI, does that include kind of changing the system overall? That's I guess what people are afraid of, is they don't know what this is all looking like, and is it going to affect me in the long term?这其中包括 AI 吗，包括从整体上改变系统吗？我觉得人们担心的就是这个，他们不知道这一切会变成什么样，长远来看会不会影响到自己？
Elon MuskIt's going to affect them, it's going to affect people very positively. So the changes that we're doing here will ensure the solvency of the American government, of the United States of America. This is what we're trying to do, is ensure that people do receive their benefits in the future. And you can only receive your benefits if the country is operating in a healthy and competent way.会影响的，而且会产生非常积极的影响。我们正在推进的这些改变，将确保美国政府、美利坚合众国的偿付能力。这就是我们正在努力的——确保人们未来能够继续领取他们的福利。而你想要继续领到福利，前提是这个国家以一种健康、有能力的方式运转。
Sean HannityUp next, how the DOGE team plans to streamline some federal jobs and agencies, and later Elon Musk answers some of your questions that you asked via X.接下来，DOGE 团队计划如何精简部分联邦岗位和机构，稍后 Elon Musk 还会回答你们通过 X 提出的问题。
Sean HannityAnthony Armstrong, DOGE, Office of Personnel Management, Morgan Stanley banker, M&A guy. You know, money, and this is a lot of money sloshing around.Anthony Armstrong，DOGE，人事管理局，前 Morgan Stanley 银行家，做并购的。你懂钱，这里可是有大量的钱在流动。
Anthony ArmstrongThere's a lot of money sloshing around, there's a lot of money sloshing out the door. And if you look at the federal government and the way the workforce works, it's really a one-way ratchet over decades. It's only going up, it's only going up, you never take it away. So that leaves you with duplicative functions, it leaves you with overstaffing, and it leaves you with functions in the wrong places. So a couple of examples. Duplicative function: Brad mentioned 27 CIOs. If you had kept going with Brad, he would talk about the Communications office. I think you've got 40 distinct Communications offices in HHS, right?有大量的钱在流动，大量的钱在往外流。如果你看联邦政府的运作方式，从人员架构来说，几十年来就是一个单向棘轮。只进不出，只增不减，从来不缩减。这就造成了功能重叠、人员冗余，以及职能错位的问题。举几个例子。功能重叠：Brad 提到了 27 位 CIO。如果让 Brad 继续说下去，他还会谈到公关办公室。我记得 HHS 里有 40 个不同的公关办公室，对吧？
Brad SmithYeah, 40.是的，40 个。
Anthony ArmstrongYeah, and that's not unusual, by the way. And multiple offices like that, not making anyone healthy. This is not about the employees. There's many, many hardworking, well-meaning people who took these jobs. These jobs were out there, they applied for them, they took them, they're doing what's there. It's just that they're duplicating the effort of 40 offices. So you've got that, you've got overstaffing. A good example of overstaffing would be the IRS has got 1,400 people who are dedicated to provisioning laptops and cell phones. So if you join the IRS you get a laptop and a cell phone, you're provisioned. So if each of those IRS officers or employees provisioned two employees per day, you could provision the entire IRS in a little more than a month. So 12 times a year you could. Why would you have 1,400 people whose only job it is to give out a laptop, a phone? The whole IRS could be handled once a month. So that doesn't make any sense. And President Trump's been very clear: scalpel, not hatchet, and that's the way it's getting done. And then once those decisions are made there's a very heavy focus on being generous, being caring, being compassionate, and treating everyone with dignity and respect. And if you look at how people have started to leave the government, it is largely through voluntary means. There's voluntary early retirement, there's voluntary separation payments, we put in place deferred resignation, the 8-month severance program. So there's a very heavy bias towards programs that are long-dated, that are generous, that allow people to exit and go and get a new job in the private sector. And you've heard a lot of news about RIFs, about people getting fired at this moment in time. Less than 0.15, not 1.5, less than 0.15 of the federal workforce has actually been given a RIF notice.是的，而且这并不罕见。有这么多重叠的办公室，没有一个在让人更健康。这不是针对员工。有很多非常勤劳、出于好意的人，他们应聘了这些职位，干着分配给他们的工作。只是，他们在做 40 个办公室都在做的同一件事。人员冗余也是一样。一个典型例子：IRS 有 1,400 名专门负责给人配发笔记本电脑和手机的员工。也就是说，你加入 IRS 会得到一台笔记本和一部手机，有人专门负责配发。如果这些员工每人每天配发 2 名员工，整个 IRS 一个多月就能配发完。一年可以做 12 遍。为什么要养 1,400 个人，他们唯一的工作就是发一台笔记本和一部手机？整个 IRS 一个月就能搞定一次，这根本说不通。Trump 总统说得很清楚：用手术刀，不用斧头，我们也是这么做的。而且一旦做出那些决定，工作重心就会非常着重于慷慨、体贴、有同理心，以及尊重地对待每一个人。如果你看人们离开政府的方式，大部分都是自愿离开的。有自愿提前退休，有自愿离职补偿，我们还推出了延期辞职方案、8 个月的遣散费项目。所以非常偏向于那种长周期、待遇慷慨、让人们有时间离职并在私营部门找到新工作的方案。关于 RIF，你们听到了很多裁员消息，说现在有很多人被解雇。实际上，收到 RIF 通知的联邦工作人员还不到 0.15%，不是 1.5%，是不到 0.15%。
Sean HannitySo if they're, it is basically almost no one's gotten fired, that's what we're saying.所以基本上几乎没有人被解雇，这就是我们想说的。
Sean HannityTom Krause, working at Treasury, you are having access to the payment system, oversees all the outgoing payments essentially. Those payments were going places, we didn't know where they were going, right?Tom Krause，在财政部工作，你们可以访问支付系统，监管所有对外支付。这些支付之前流向了各种地方，我们根本不知道去哪了，对吧？
Tom KrauseYeah, unfortunately that's the case. You know, as an ex-CFO of a big public tech company, really what we're doing is we're applying public company standards to the federal government, and it is alarming how the financial operations and financial management is set up today. There is actually really only one bank account that's used to disperse all monies that go out of the federal government.是的，不幸的是确实如此。作为一家大型上市科技公司的前 CFO，我们正在做的事情，实际上就是把上市公司的标准应用到联邦政府上，而目前的财务运营和财务管理状况真的令人警觉。实际上，联邦政府对外发出的所有款项，只用了一个真正意义上的银行账户来分发。
Sean HannityTime out. One bank account?等等。一个银行账户？
Tom KrauseIt's a big one, it's a big one, it's a big one. Couple weeks ago it had $800 billion in it. But it's the treasury general account. So when you hear, you know, some of my colleagues here what they're talking about in terms of the fraud, you have to ask, well why is this allowed to happen at a financial level? Well it's actually quite simple but alarming. The treasury, up until now, and thanks to President Trump we're fixing this, in fact there's an executive order that he just signed the other day which is protecting America's bank account, because it really is the taxpayer's money. One, we're changing the culture. The culture has been not a lot of caring and not a lot of commitment to doing what's right relative to financial operations. There's a $500 billion of fraud every year, there's hundreds of billions of dollars of improper payments, and we can't pass an audit. The Consolidated financial report is produced by Treasury and we cannot pass it. We have material weaknesses. What that means is that if I was a public company CFO I would effectively be removed. I couldn't file financial statements, I couldn't issue equities, of course, which we depend on.是很大的一个，非常大的一个。几周前里面还有 8000 亿美元。那就是财政部的一般账户。所以当你听到我的同事们谈到欺诈问题时，你不得不问：为什么在财务层面会允许这种事发生？其实原因很简单但很令人震惊。财政部，直到现在——感谢 Trump 总统，我们正在修复这个问题，事实上他刚刚签署了一项行政令，名叫「保护美国的银行账户」，因为这真的是纳税人的钱。第一，我们在改变文化。过去的文化是不够在乎、对财务运营该做什么缺乏责任感。每年有 5000 亿美元的欺诈，还有数千亿美元的不当支出，而且我们根本过不了审计。由财政部出具的综合财务报告，我们过不了。我们有重大缺陷。这意味着如果我是一家上市公司的 CFO，我实际上会被解雇。我没办法提交财务报表，也没办法发行股票——而我们恰恰依赖于此。
Elon MuskThe federal government cannot pass an audit, it's impossible. In fact, in order to pass an audit you need the information necessary to pass an audit. You need to have the payment codes, you need to have the payment explanation, and you need to have a person you can contact to understand why that payment was made. None of those things were mandatory.联邦政府根本过不了审计，完全不可能。事实上，要通过审计，你需要具备通过审计所必需的信息。你需要支付代码，你需要支付说明，你需要有一个可以联系的人来解释这笔钱为什么要付出去。而这些，以前没有一项是强制要求的。
Tom KrauseYeah, until just recently, just a few weeks ago in fact, maybe last week. Yeah, we're serving 580-plus agencies, and up until very recently effectively they could say make the payment and treasury just sent it out as fast as possible, no verification. And so what we're doing is what any household would do. But imagine you're a household, you have a bank account. Everyone has the ATM card connected to that account, everyone has a checkbook to that account. It's not just your children, it's not just your parents, it's your in-laws, it's your extended family, and they all can go to the account and disperse funds, no questions asked, no justification, no verification.是的，直到最近，就在几周前，也许是上周。是的，我们为 580 多个机构提供服务，而直到最近，这些机构实际上只需要说「付款」，财政部就会尽快把钱打出去，不核实。所以我们正在做的，是任何一个家庭都会做的事。想象你是一个家庭，你有一个银行账户。每个人都有连着这个账户的 ATM 卡，每个人都有这个账户的支票本。不只是你的孩子，不只是你的父母，还有你的岳父岳母、大家庭成员，所有人都可以去账户里取钱，没有疑问、没有说明、没有核实。
Sean HannityUp next, the DOGE team targets government contracts, and we'll show you what they're finding.接下来，DOGE 团队的目标是政府合同，我们来看看他们发现了什么。
Sean HannityTyler Hassen, Interior Department, you're a former oil company CEO. You're reviewing contracts before they're approved for funding. What are you finding?Tyler Hassen，内政部，前石油公司 CEO。你在审查合同，在它们获得资金批准之前。你发现了什么？
Tyler HassenWell, Elon and Steve kind of stole my thunder a little bit, but I actually found that customer service survey contract. I actually have an example of one right here. I could have done this in high school, that right, I found it that bad. I found it on the weekends, because under the Biden Administration there was no departmental oversight within the Department of Interior whatsoever, none. We are now reviewing every single contract, every single grant, and when things come to my attention that don't make sense, I'm bringing them to Secretary Burgum, and he has been fantastic. He's a businessman, he's very supportive of DOGE, it's been wonderful to work with him.嗯，Elon 和 Steve 有点抢了我的风头，但我实际上就是发现那份客户服务调查合同的人。我这里就有一个例子。这种东西我高中的时候就能做，就是这么差劲——我是周末发现的，因为在拜登政府执政期间，内政部内部根本没有任何部门级别的监管，完全没有。我们现在在审查每一份合同、每一笔拨款，每当有不合理的东西引起我的注意，我就会向 Burgum 部长汇报，他一直非常给力。他是个商人，非常支持 DOGE，和他合作真的很愉快。
Sean HannityIs the battle between government of decades of buildup, and business which you guys are, is that like a train hitting each other? I mean it seems like it's pretty disruptive.政府几十年来的积累，和你们这些商界人士之间的冲突，是不是就像两列火车对撞一样？我是说这看起来相当具有颠覆性。
Elon MuskWell, this is a revolution, and I think it might be the biggest revolution in government since the original Revolution. But at the end of the day America is going to be in much better shape. America will be solvent, the critical programs that people depend upon will work, and it's going to be a fantastic future. But are we going to get a lot of complaints along the way? Absolutely. You know, one of the things I learned at PayPal was, you know who complains the loudest and with the most amount of fake righteous indignation? The fraudsters. That's a tell. NGOs that are crazy, like the $2 billion, the Stacey Abrams NGO that basically didn't exist and suddenly gets $2 billion awarded from the federal government, you say why? And there are many cases like that. I think that most people, common sense wise, would say the fraud's got to end. They're concerned about the 94-year-old mother who skips a check or somehow doesn't get what she's supposed to get, right? And what we're trying to say is, actually, that the 94-year-old grandmother is actually, as a result of Joe Gebbia's work, going to get her check. She's not going to be robbed by fraud like she's getting robbed today. And the solvency of the federal government will ensure that she continues to receive those Social Security checks, that Medicare continues to work, without which we're all doomed. And the reason we're doing this is because if we don't do it, America's going to go insolvent, we're going to go bankrupt, and nobody's going to get anything.嗯，这是一场革命，我认为这可能是自美国独立革命以来政府领域最大的一场革命。但归根结底，美国将会好得多。美国将会保持偿付能力，人们赖以为生的关键项目将会正常运作，未来会非常美好。但我们沿途会收到大量抱怨吗？当然会。你知道，我在 PayPal 学到的一件事是，谁叫得最响、带着最多虚伪的义愤填膺？骗子。这就是一个信号。那些离谱的 NGO，比如那个 $20 亿的 Stacey Abrams NGO——那个组织基本上不存在，突然就从联邦政府拿到了 20 亿美元的拨款，你说为什么？这样的案例比比皆是。我认为大多数人，用常识来判断，都会说欺诈必须终止。他们担心的是那位 94 岁的老妈妈，万一漏发一张支票，或者以某种方式没拿到她应得的钱，对吧？而我们想说的是，恰恰是因为 Joe Gebbia 的工作，那位 94 岁的老奶奶才真正能收到支票。她不会像现在一样被欺诈侵吞。而联邦政府的偿付能力，将确保她继续收到那些社会保障金，确保 Medicare 继续运转——没有这些我们都完蛋。我们之所以这么做，是因为如果不做，美国就会资不抵债、走向破产，那谁都什么都拿不到。
Sean HannityWhy are you guys all doing it? I mean you can pipe up, but you don't have to be here, right? I mean you don't have to be doing this.你们为什么都要来做这个？我是说你们可以说说，但你们其实不必来，对吧？我是说你们不必做这些的。
Tom KrauseI have four, blessed with four children, my wife and I, but we have a real fiscal crisis and this is not sustainable. And what's worse, back to my children and everyone else's children, is we are burdening them with that debt, and it's only going to grow.我有四个孩子，我和妻子有幸拥有四个孩子，但我们面临着真实的财政危机，这是不可持续的。更糟的是，说回我的孩子和其他所有人的孩子，我们正在把这笔债务压在他们身上，而且只会越来越重。
Sean HannitySteve, there's not a lot of hierarchy here, you guys are kind of all approaching it in different, you know, silos, but with the same kind of goal, right? I mean this is really Silicon Valley private sector colliding with government.Steve，这里没什么层级架构，你们各自在不同的领域推进，但朝着同一个目标，对吧？我是说这真的是硅谷私营部门正在和政府碰撞。
Steve DavisYeah, exactly. We're headed in a bad path, but the chance of success exists. And just the one that is in my head right now, which is a fairly mundane one but I think is very illustrative, is credit cards. There are in the federal government around 4.6 million credit cards for around 2.3 to 2.4 million employees. This doesn't make sense, right? And so one of the things all the teams have worked on is we've worked with the agencies and said, do you need all of these credit cards? Are they being used? Can you tell us physically where they are?是的，没错。我们走在一条糟糕的路上，但成功的可能性确实存在。现在脑子里有个例子，相对来说比较平常，但我觉得很能说明问题——那就是信用卡。联邦政府大约有 460 万张信用卡，对应大约 230 万到 240 万名员工。这说不通，对吧？所以各团队一直在做的事情之一，就是和各机构沟通：你们真的需要这么多信用卡吗？这些卡都在用吗？你们能告诉我们这些卡实际在哪吗？
Sean HannityI hope they're getting frequent flyer miles.希望他们还在累积飞行里程积分。
Steve DavisActually on a different note, the rewards program the federal government has is actually not very good compared to...说到另一个话题，联邦政府的积分奖励项目和市面上的相比其实很不划算……
Sean HannityThat's a whole other negotiation, sorry.那又是另一个谈判了，打断一下，抱歉。
Steve DavisYeah, exactly. But so far the teams have worked together and they've reduced it from 4.6 million to 4.3 million. So we're taking it easy, but clearly there should not be more credit cards than there are people.是的，没错。但目前各团队合作，已经从 460 万张减少到了 430 万张。我们循序渐进，但很显然，信用卡的数量不应该多于员工人数。
Sean HannityYeah. Joe, middle-level employees, are they seeing a benefit to being empowered by taking out bureaucracy?是的。Joe，中层员工，他们有没有感受到因为去除官僚体制而获得授权的好处？
Joe GebbiaI mean, absolutely. I mean I think what you're seeing is taking the best of Silicon Valley in the business world and bringing it into the government. We're bringing the best practices and the best methodologies, and people are inspired, right? Especially on the retirement process, which I can speak to, they've been trying to modernize and get off of paper since the early 2000s, unsuccessfully. Every attempt has gone over budget and been cancelled because it hasn't been successful. And so I showed up and I feel like I'm here because it's an interesting problem we can use design to solve, and good engineering, and really create a better experience for everybody.我是说，绝对有。我觉得你看到的，就是把硅谷和商界最好的东西带进政府。我们把最佳实践和最好的方法论带进来，人们确实受到了鼓舞，对吧？尤其是在退休流程这一块，我最有发言权——从 2000 年代初他们就一直想实现现代化、告别纸质，但一直没有成功。每一次尝试都超出预算、最终被取消，因为没有做成。所以我来了，我感觉我来这里是因为这是一个可以用设计来解决的有趣问题，加上好的工程，真正为所有人创造更好的体验。
Elon MuskWe're talking about elementary financial controls that are necessary for any company to function. So if a commercial company operated the way the federal government does, then it would immediately go bankrupt, it would be delisted, the officers would be arrested. The changes we're putting in place will enable the federal government to pass an audit. It will enable taxpayers to know where the money is going and know that their hard-earned tax dollars are being spent well.我们谈的是任何一家公司正常运转都需要的基本财务管控。如果一家商业公司像联邦政府这样运营，它会立即破产、被摘牌，高管会被逮捕。我们正在推行的这些变革，将让联邦政府能够通过审计。它将让纳税人知道钱流向了哪里，知道他们辛苦赚来的税款被用得其所。
Elon MuskThe ways that the government is defrauded is that the computer systems don't talk to each other. So if the computer systems don't talk to each other, then you can exploit that gap. And fraudsters exploit that gap, take advantage. For example, there were over $300 million of Small Business Administration loans that has been given out to people under the age of 11.政府被欺诈的方式，正是因为计算机系统之间无法互通。系统之间不互通，你就可以利用这个漏洞。骗子就是这样利用漏洞占便宜的。比如，有超过 3 亿美元的小企业管理局贷款，被发放给了 11 岁以下的人。
Aram MoghaddassiWell, actually to add to it, it's 300 million under the age of 11 and over 300 million to over the age of 120.实际上补充一下，11 岁以下的是 3 亿，120 岁以上的也有超过 3 亿。
Sean HannityDefinitely small business loans, correct?肯定都是小企业贷款，对？
Elon MuskYes. The oldest American is 114, so it's safe to say if their age is 115 or above, they're fake, or they should be in the book called World Records. And we should not be giving out loans to babies. So the youngest recipient of a Small Business Administration loan is a 9-month-old, which is a very, very cautious baby we're talking about here. So obviously it was just fraudulent. And what they do, terrible things, they actually will see that a kid's been born, they will steal that kid's Social Security number and then take out a loan and leave that kid with a bad credit rating. There was literally a baby.是的。美国最长寿的人是 114 岁，所以可以有把握地说，如果年龄显示 115 岁或以上，要么是假的，要么这个人应该上吉尼斯世界纪录。而且我们不应该把贷款发给婴儿。小企业管理局贷款中年龄最小的获贷者是一个 9 个月大的婴儿——这是一个非常谨慎的婴儿，我们说的就是它。所以这显然是欺诈。他们做的是非常可恶的事情：他们会看到一个孩子出生，然后盗用那个孩子的社会保障号，申请贷款，留给那个孩子一个糟糕的信用记录。真的有婴儿。
Sean HannityThe terrible things are being done is what we're saying, and we're stopping these terrible things and you can stop it.在做的是非常可恶的事情，就是我们想说的，而我们正在阻止这些可恶的事情，而且可以阻止。
Elon MuskI mean, we are stopping the... The reason this is happening is because the two systems are not talking to each other, and so you don't know at the Small Business Administration that you're giving a loan to a 9-month-old, which happened in one case, because you're not cross-referencing that with the Social Security Administration data that has birth dates. So that very, very simple fix eliminates tremendous fraud. And there are multiple systems across the government where the systems are not speaking with one another, and if you just solve that simple problem you would solve a huge amount of fraud.我是说，我们正在阻止……之所以会发生这些，是因为两个系统没有互通，所以在小企业管理局那边，你根本不知道你在把贷款发给一个 9 个月大的婴儿——真实发生过这样的案例——因为你没有和社会保障局的数据交叉比对，而那里有出生日期。所以这个非常简单的修复，就能消除巨量的欺诈。政府里有多个系统互不互通，只要解决这个简单的问题，就能消除大量欺诈。
Sean HannityAre you one of the ways...你们是其中一种……
Aram MoghaddassiOne of the key tricks that the fraudsters pull is that they will use the fact that someone is marked as alive, that that Social Security number is marked as alive in Social Security, and then get disability and unemployment insurance for a dead person, because the databases don't talk to each other. All they got from Social Security is, is this person alive? Yes. They're not alive, it's falsely marked, the person is falsely marked as alive in Social Security. But that person, a fraudster can now get unemployment and disability from a dead person. This is happening all the time, at scale.骗子使用的关键伎俩之一，就是利用某人在社会保障系统里被标记为在世这一事实，然后以一个已经去世的人的名义去领取残障和失业保险，因为这些数据库之间根本不互通。他们从社会保障那边得到的就是：这个人在世吗？答：是的。但这个人已经不在了，只是在社会保障系统里被错误地标记为在世。而骗子就可以用这个死人的名义领取失业和残障补贴。这种事一直在发生，而且是大规模的。
Sean HannityAre you surprised at some of the legal efforts and some of the judges that have weighed in? There's about eight or 10 now of these cases that are at least temporary holds, they're being challenged by the DOJ, right. Are you surprised by that pushback?你们对那些法律上的阻力、以及那些发表意见的法官感到惊讶吗？目前大约有八到十起这样的案子处于临时中止状态，司法部正在提出挑战。你们对这种阻力感到意外吗？
Elon MuskWell, the DC circuit is notorious for having a very far-left blindness. And when you look at the people close to some of these judges, who who are, where are they working? Oh, they're working at these NGOs. Oh, they're the ones getting this money. Does that seem like a system that lacks corruption? It sounds like corruption to me.嗯，DC 巡回法院以非常极左的盲目性而臭名昭著。当你去看这些法官身边的人——他们在哪里工作？哦，他们在这些 NGO 工作。哦，他们就是拿这笔钱的人。这看起来像一个没有腐败的体系吗？在我看来这就是腐败。
Sean HannityLast thing, do you guys all see this as a patriotic duty? Is that really what this is about?最后一个问题，你们都把这当作一种爱国责任吗？这件事的本质是这样吗？
Tyler HassenIt's essential, I do, 100%. I was running five businesses in Houston and I left that, I left great people to do this, and my wonderful wife said go for it, and here I am. But I feel like this is me giving back to the country. If we don't do this, we're sunk.这是必须做的，我确实这么认为，百分之百。我在休斯顿经营着五家企业，我为了这件事把这些都放下了，让了一群优秀的人，我很棒的妻子也说去吧，于是我来了。但我感觉这是我对这个国家的回报。如果我们不做这件事，我们就完蛋了。
Elon MuskThe ship... unless this exercise is successful, the ship of America will sink. That's why we're doing it.这艘船……除非这次行动成功，否则美国这艘船就会沉。这就是我们为什么要做这件事。
Sean HannityWell gentlemen, I really appreciate the time today, and hopefully it took some of the myth and mystery out of DOGE and what's happening behind the scenes. Thank you.各位，我真的非常感谢今天的时间，希望这次访谈能让大家揭开 DOGE 的一些神秘面纱，看清幕后究竟在发生什么。谢谢你们。
Sean HannityWe asked on X, your platform, for some questions, and here is C Sperling, he writes: are they happy with the speed at which they're making changes, are there any changes they would like to make but haven't yet?我们在 X 上——你的平台——征集了一些问题，这是 C Sperling 写的：他们对推进变革的速度满意吗，有没有他们想推但还没有推进的变革？
Elon MuskWell, I think in the context of the government we're moving like lightning. In the context of what I'm used to moving, it's slower than I'd like. So what seems like incredibly fast action by government standards is, it's slower than I'd like, to be totally frank. But we're all making solid progress. A very sort of thorny problem, a tough problem, really it's kind of like painful homework frankly, is reconciling all of the government databases to eliminate the waste and fraud. These databases don't talk to each other, and that's really the source of the biggest vulnerability for fraud, is the fact that these databases don't talk to each other. So we need to reconcile databases. It's frankly painful homework, but it has to be done, and will greatly improve the efficiency of the government systems.嗯，我认为在政府这个环境里，我们的推进速度已经是闪电级别了。但以我习惯的速度来看，它比我想要的要慢。在政府标准里看起来是极其迅速的行动，比我想要的还是慢了点——坦白说。但我们都在稳步推进。有一个非常棘手、非常困难的问题，说实话就是一道痛苦的功课，就是协调所有政府数据库，以消除浪费和欺诈。这些数据库之间无法互通，这真的是欺诈最大漏洞的根源——就是这些数据库互不互通的事实。所以我们需要协调这些数据库。坦白说，这是一道痛苦的功课，但这必须做，而且将极大地提高政府系统的效率。
Sean HannityWe didn't talk about any plans to approach cuts at the Pentagon. You're in there, you know the Pentagon has not passed an audit in a very long time.我们没有谈到针对五角大楼削减的任何计划。你们在里面，你们知道五角大楼已经很长时间没有通过审计了。
Elon MuskI mean, it's crazy as it sounds, they will lose 20, 30 billion dollars a year and they literally don't know where it went. I mean, Senator Collins was telling me about how she gave the Navy $112 billion for extra submarines, got zero extra submarines, and then when she held a hearing said where'd the $112 billion go, they didn't know.我是说，听起来很疯狂，但他们每年会损失 200 亿、300 亿美元，而且他们字面意思就是不知道钱去哪了。Collins 参议员跟我说，她给海军拨了 $1,120 亿美元用于额外建造潜艇，结果一艘额外的潜艇都没有造出来，然后她召开听证会问 $1,120 亿美元去了哪里，他们答不上来。
Sean HannityTalking to those guys, and you have a great team from all over the country. You don't have to be here, you don't have to be here. You know there's now been these many cases of violence and vandalism at Tesla dealerships. How does that affect your employees, your customers? What does it mean to you, like how have you taken that in?跟这些人交谈，你有一个来自全国各地的优秀团队。你们不必来这里，真的不必。现在特斯拉经销商已经发生了好多起暴力事件和破坏行为。这对你的员工、你的客户有什么影响？对你来说意味着什么，你是怎么消化这件事的？
Elon MuskWell, I think a great wrong is being done to the people of Tesla and to our customers. Tesla is a peaceful company that has made great cars, great products, that's all it's done. Hasn't harmed anyone. And yet people are committing violence, they're firebombing Tesla dealerships, they're shooting guns into stores, they're threatening people, they're issuing death threats against me and another Tesla personnel. What are they doing this for, why? And what's happening, it seems to me, is they're being fed propaganda by the far left, and they believe it. It's really unfortunate. But the real problem is not the people, it's not like the crazy guy that firebombs a Tesla dealership, it's the people pushing the propaganda that caused that guy to do it. Those are the real villains here, and we're going to go after them. And the president's made it clear we're going to go after them: the ones providing the money, the ones pushing the lies and propaganda, we're going after them.嗯，我认为 Tesla 的员工和我们的客户正在遭受一种巨大的不公正。Tesla 是一家平和的公司，做出了很好的汽车和产品，仅此而已。它没有伤害任何人。但人们现在在施暴，他们在对 Tesla 经销商扔燃烧弹，向店里开枪，威胁员工，对我和其他 Tesla 人员发出死亡威胁。他们这样做是为什么，为什么？在我看来，发生的事情是，他们被极左翼的宣传洗脑了，他们相信了。这真的很令人痛心。但真正的问题不在于那些人，不在于那个向 Tesla 经销商扔燃烧弹的疯子，而在于推动那些宣传、导致那个人去这么做的人。那些才是真正的恶棍，我们要追究他们的责任。总统已经明确表态，我们要追究他们：那些提供资金的人，那些推送谎言和宣传的人，我们要追究。
Sean HannityAnd it's been this evolution, I mean the last Administration was going to mandate electric vehicles, and now you see on the far left some efforts to go after electric vehicles. It's quite something.这是一种演变，上届政府本来要强制推行电动汽车，而现在你看到极左方面有一些人在攻击电动汽车。这真是挺让人感慨的。
Elon MuskIt is ironic. I mean it seems like the most ironic outcome is the most likely.确实很讽刺。我是说，最具讽刺意味的结果，似乎总是最有可能发生的那个。
Sean HannityBut yeah, I mean personally it's got to take a toll. It does, yeah.是啊，我是说，个人层面肯定是有代价的。确实，是的。
Elon MuskIt does. I think there's some real evil out there, and we have to overcome it.确实有。我觉得外面确实有一些真实的邪恶，我们必须克服它。
Sean HannityI mean you have been called a Nazi, a white supremacist, a fascist. I mean they've got the sort of their normal...我是说你已经被叫做纳粹、白人至上主义者、法西斯分子。我是说他们那套标准词汇……
Elon MuskYeah, I mean they've still got it, they haven't, I guess they still need to call me Stalin, Mussolini, you know, whatever, Genghis Khan or whatever. I mean they've called the president all these things. I think at one point there was a magazine cover which said the president was worse than... President Trump was worse than Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin combined. The president hasn't killed anyone, he hasn't started any wars, in fact he's good at stopping wars. So this is obviously, they're pushing these lies. And why do they push these lies? And I think that we need to hold people responsible for pushing these lies, because those lies almost got the president killed.是啊，我是说他们还没叫完，我猜他们还需要叫我斯大林、墨索里尼，或者成吉思汗什么的。他们把所有这些帽子都扣在总统头上。我记得有一次有个杂志封面，说 Trump 总统比希特勒、墨索里尼和斯大林加起来还糟糕。总统没有杀过任何人，没有发动过任何战争，事实上他很擅长止战。所以这显然就是他们在推谎言。他们为什么要推这些谎言？我认为我们需要让那些推谎言的人承担责任，因为这些谎言几乎害了总统的命。
Sean HannityWhat's something that people want to know about the president? You're pretty close to him now, you spend a lot of time with him. What's something that people wouldn't know?有什么是人们想了解总统的？你现在和他走得很近，花了很多时间在一起。有什么是外人不了解的吗？
Elon MuskI think the president is a good man. I think he is an honest man, and I have yet to see him do anything mean or anything that I would say is morally wrong, not even once.我认为总统是个好人。我认为他是个诚实的人，我至今没有看到他做过任何刻薄的事，或者我会认为在道德上有问题的事——一次都没有。
Sean HannityYou know a lot is coming your way, but sometimes you say stuff or post stuff that gets attention, you give it out, in other words. Democratic Arizona Senator Mark Kelly posted on X about his trip to Ukraine to push for continuing to send US weapons and support there, and you posted that he was a traitor. Why do that?你知道很多攻击会朝你而来，但有时候你说的话或者发的帖子也很引人注目，换句话说，你自己也会输出火力。民主党亚利桑那州参议员 Mark Kelly 在 X 上发帖，写的是他去乌克兰的行程，目的是推动继续向乌克兰提供美国武器和支持，而你回帖说他是叛徒。为什么要这么做？
Elon MuskWell, I think somebody should care about the interests of the United States above the interests of another country, and if they don't, they're a traitor.嗯，我认为一个人应该把美国的利益置于其他国家的利益之上，如果他们不这样做，那就是叛徒。
Sean HannityYeah, but he's a decorated veteran, a former astronaut, a sitting US senator.但他是一位有荣誉的退伍军人、前宇航员、在任美国参议员。
Elon MuskThat doesn't mean it's okay for him to put the interest of another country above America.这并不意味着他把另一个国家的利益凌驾于美国之上是可以的。
Sean HannityObviously there are some Republicans who think supporting Ukraine is the right thing still, but there is a battle back and forth. How do you think it comes to an end?显然还有一些共和党人认为支持乌克兰仍然是正确的，但各方争来争去。你认为这件事会怎么结束？
Elon MuskWell, I think there will be a negotiated peace. And the thing that we should be concerned about is, we should have empathy for the thousands of people that are dying every day in trenches for no movement in the lines. So the borders remain the same for the past 2 years, thousands of people have died every week for nothing, for what? And I take great, great offense at those who put the appearance of goodness over the reality of it, those who virtue signal and say oh, we can't give in to Russia, but have no solution to stopping thousands of kids dying every day. They just want that to continue forever. I have contempt for such people, I don't want to make that clear.嗯，我认为最终会有一个谈判出来的和平结果。我们真正应该关心的是，我们要对那些每天在战壕里白白牺牲的成千上万的人有同理心——战线根本没有任何移动。过去 2 年来，战线没有变化，每周都有数千人死去，什么都没换来，为了什么？我对那些把表面的善良凌驾于真实善良之上的人深感厌恶——那些道德表演者，说什么我们不能向俄罗斯低头，却对如何阻止每天死去的成千上万年轻人没有任何解决方案。他们只想让这种状态永远持续下去。我对这样的人充满鄙视，我想把话说清楚。
Sean HannityYeah, so you, because they're virtue signaling and their lack of a solution means that kids don't have a father, it means that parents lost a son, for what?是的，所以你——因为他们在道德表演，而他们没有解决方案，意味着孩子没有了父亲，意味着父母失去了儿子，为了什么？
Elon MuskNothing.什么都没换来。
Sean HannitySo you're optimistic that the president plan might work?所以你对总统的方案有可能奏效感到乐观？
Elon MuskThe president plan is the only thing that will work.总统的方案是唯一能奏效的。
Sean HannityHey, Sean Hannity here. Hey, click here to subscribe to Fox News YouTube page and catch our hottest interviews and most compelling analysis. You will not get it anywhere else.嗨，我是 Sean Hannity。点击这里订阅 Fox News 的 YouTube 频道，收看我们最热门的采访和最深刻的分析。你在其他任何地方都找不到。